Head Weight / Grip Weight

[Matt J]

Seems it is regularly repeated that 330 gram putter heads are too light despite the fact that we know many pros, Bubba Watson for one, play 340 gram putters on greens that run from 11 to 13 every week.

 

Why don't we ever hear of "anti-counter-weighting?"

 

I remember when I first started building putters that I was very surprised that the smaller diameter Flatso 1.0 for instance, at 85 grams, weighs 35 grams more than the bigger brother Flatso 2.0.

 

Seems the counterweight of 35 grams would render a similar feel between heads with 20 grams of weight difference.

 

Not to mention, Salty cork grips, and other ultra light options.... I have a Salty on an old heel shafted blade putter and the published weight of the Mid-Plus is a scant 37 grams or a net deficit of 48 grams from a Flatso 1.0 and 21 grams lighter than a light putter grip like the Pingman at 58 grams.

 

Should we be talking about grip weight more? How about shafts? Seems a stout shaft might bring swing weight up and create a feel some golfers in the 350 gram plus camp might like? I've recently been experimenting with a spent graphite driver shaft in one of my putters and it definitely creates a different feel, although the jury is still out...

[sevenfourate]

Couldn't agree more.

 

Back in the day i found that ideally a 34 1/2", 340g headed putter with about the lightest, thinnest all-rubber grip i could find at the time (Sub 60g) was the best combo for me. Something i still base my putter around these days.

 

Start fitting a fat.....and by definition .....'heavy' grip and the feel of that head-weight was lost.

 

Point being you don't need a 360 / 370g head to feel that weight - if you can compromise and find a lighter grip you like the feel of in your hands.

[Stuart_G]

Seems it is regularly repeated that 330 gram putter heads are too light despite the fact that we know many pros, Bubba Watson for one, play 340 gram putters on greens that run from 11 to 13 every week.

 

It's also regularly repeated that you shouldn't believe everything that's regularly repeated on the internet :-)

 

Should we be talking about grip weight more?

 

Howard provides some good insight on how to fit grip weight.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/909991-diy-driver-tune-up-diy-fitting/#entry7871923

[PutterPro]

All very true... a 330 gram Head doesn’t feel so light if you combo it with a light grip. So many guys butcher their putters with these 80+ gram grips and only bought it in the first place because it “looked cool” or it felt good in their hands at the golf shop. I know I’ve spend a small fortune on putter grips over the last 2 years searching for the right feel/weight combo.

[SwingMan]

I think about total weight of the putter - I like'm heavy but not head heavy - I seem to putt well with a D7 SW instead of E2. Less stroke time and better tempo. Better distance control but the total weight of the putter is more than your typical OEM. I might have a 360g head but a 100g grip. I also tend to grip down on a 34.5 inch putter to 33.5 inches.

 

I think the heavier weight of the club tends to settle the hands somewhat.

 

Still experimenting .. I am thinking a slightly heaver weight MOI putter with a lighter swingweight, of say D7, may give you steadiness while still allowing you a standard putting stroke time of about 1 second with a 2:1 tempo.

[sevenfourate]

Just checked back in here. Interesting this thread has so little participation.

 

I presume that either everyone with any interest in putters or their putting has this nailed. Or no-one gives a monkeys......

 

Either of which amaze me.

[Stuart_G]

Just checked back in here. Interesting this thread has so little participation.

 

I presume that either everyone with any interest in putters or their putting has this nailed. Or no-one gives a monkeys......

 

Either of which amaze me.

 

More likely people figure out what works and what doesn't for them through random trial and error w/o actually understanding how the putter specs really changed. e.g. They just demo a bunch until they find one that feels "right" (w/o actually understanding why).

 

A more systematic (and knowledgeable) approach can get you there faster (and by spending less money) but the end result is probably pretty similar.

[Maximilian]

I think it depends on people’s strokes. It’s usually said they if you lead the stroke with your hands pulling the putter, you would probably benefit from having more weight in the handle, and if you don’t move your hands much but instead swing the putter head, you would benefit from having more of the weight down by the head.

 

For me, I’m much more sensitive to static weight than swingweight. I like light-ish putters, but I don’t seem to mind too much how the weight is distributed. A heavy head with a heavy grip, even if the swingweight is mid D somewhere, still feels too heavy to me. And likewise a 330g head with an 80g grip in the C’s, does not feel too light.

 

Now I can feel a difference in swingweight, I’m just not at all as sensitive about it as I am static weight. I think I’m more of an arm swinger rather than pure shoulder rocker, for what that’s worth.

[Maximilian]

Also, I posted this elsewhere recently and I know it goes against what I just said about me not caring too much about the swingweight in my putters, but still something I have come to like, is that recently I’ve been playing D5 in both my putter and my wedges and I kind of enjoy the uniformity. How much is psychological and how much is physical I can’t say, but I do like it.

[KRW59]

Just a few of many....anyone of which , has a chance to be in the bag for the

day. All of these are set up to feel the same . Although static / total weights

vary from 550 grams to 575 grams , and head weights vary from 350 to 365 grams , they share the same E-2 to E-3 sw / balance, Gripmaster Stitch back or sewn

grips , 4:00 to 4:30 toe hang , length 34.5" , and milled no insert faces. Makes it easy to keep multiple putters in the rotation , without having to go

thru an adjustment period for each one . Only difference between them is visual

or how my eyes see the target line in relation to contours for alignment.

 

Years ago I put myself thru an extensive self fitting , similar to the way

Howard Jones explains in his "DIY tune up" that StuartG posted the link to.

I use foam backing rod and sugar to adjust the static and swing weight under

or below my grips for counter weight. Makes for ability to fine tune weighting.

 

I have done this same weighting to every putter since , even my one off

customs......so they can be gamed , not hanged.....

[2Down]

I like to use a heavy grip to offset a heavy head and get a feel I like.

 

Complaint here, I often find it difficult to find a grips weight anywhere on the packaging.

 

and now I have a new ping fetch with the new length adjustment system. I like that. I even like the ping pistol grip it comes with.

 

i like even better the slightly heavier Golf Pride tour SNSR grips. but have to wait till i find out about how to change a grip on the fetch and if there is a tricky part to it.

[dmeeksDC]

When an Edel fitter did my fitting, he told me they want the putter to feel balanced, not head heavy. He generally liked a heavier build for me, a 370g head with a 100g grip and a 30g weight in the shaft. But he said if I went lighter in the headweight, achieving the same weight balance ratio would help.

 

I like to keep the weight in the shaft ( four inches down, right underneath the lower hand) for tempo, but I might knock it down to 25g and reduce the grip weight by about 10 grams for a 340g head. I don’t try to get the ratio exactly the same as the heavier build, just in the ballpark. And if I have to err, I err on the lighter side. I feel like it makes lighter putter heads work well for me by keeping the ‘hit’ out of my stroke.

[Matt J]

The catalyst for this topic was all the threads about weighting down a 330 gram head. Of course if you posted, put a really light grip on the putter, everyone would say, "just answer the question."

 

I was looking for a SS Flatso 2.0 and found a deal on the Flatso 1.0 on clearance. I was aware that there is 35 grams difference in weight, and I do think that's an effort to give players some options in static and swing weight.

 

I read some old threads about using a graphite shaft in a putter, and so I took some calipers and measured to where an old out of commission driver shaft was .355 inches so it would fit in the putter hosel. Cut it down and threw that Flatso 1.0 on it and mounted it in a 330 gram Anser style head. It was an interesting feel. I played with it a few times, but wasn't enthralled with the low static weight and high grip weight. I really should have measured the cut shaft, but let's assume it's 60 grams as the uncut shaft was 65 grams. I painted over some of the graphics as they were distracting and decided to put it a 346 gram head. I'm still on the fence about what I think.... but it has been an interesting project. Seems you could find a "heavy shaft" and really light grip and trick the swing weight scale although I have no idea how that would translate to feel.

 

I think my next move might be to get one of the frequency filtered shafts. Seems interesting after playing this graphite. So many options these days, where the weight is, the materials, the types of grips, the counter weights in the grips, etc. etc. Not to mention I'm always telling my golfing mates that you need to play a putter for a couple of months exclusively before you really know how you'll put with it (just my opinion). Anyone else played around a little with unusual weighting? Any feedback on the Mamiya shafts?

 

edited to add: sorry I don't know how to turn this picture!?!

 

 

[Stuart_G]

I really should have measured the cut shaft, but let's assume it's 60 grams as the uncut shaft was 65 grams.

 

More likely somewhere around ~42-45 gm ball park.

 

Seems you could find a "heavy shaft" and really light grip and trick the swing weight scale although I have no idea how that would translate to feel.

 

No, the SW scale wouldn't help with that. Even in full swings, it's not a good indicator of feel when the static weight is varying much (or anything butt the head weight or length for that matter and even those in smaller increments). In a putter it would be worse. Just my opinion, but I've always felt the SW measurements on putters is pretty useless (although I can see some arguments for it in some very limited contexts). The SW scale is really more about MOI matching (although also in fairly limited contexts) and my opinion is that MOI isn't really a predominant characteristic in putters for most, at least not MOI about the butt of the club. Putting is much more of a linear action and what rotation exists tends to be pivoted much higher for most - near the shoulders/spine, not the wrists and grip. Might be more of an indicator for someone with an older style, very wristy putting stroke, but not as much for the more typically modern strokes.

[Maximilian]

I think my next move might be to get one of the frequency filtered shafts. Seems interesting after playing this graphite. So many options these days, where the weight is, the materials, the types of grips, the counter weights in the grips, etc. etc.

I believe Odyssey’s new Stroke Lab putters will be doing just this, combinding a light weight, stiff shaft with a heavier head and grip. Static weight should be the same as most “standard” putters, but distributed differently.

 

I’m looking forward to trying them, but not sure if I’ll feel much of a difference.

[Matt J]

I think my next move might be to get one of the frequency filtered shafts. Seems interesting after playing this graphite. So many options these days, where the weight is, the materials, the types of grips, the counter weights in the grips, etc. etc.

I believe Odyssey's new Stroke Lab putters will be doing just this, combinding a light weight, stiff shaft with a heavier head and grip. Static weight should be the same as most "standard" putters, but distributed differently.

 

I'm looking forward to trying them, but not sure if I'll feel much of a difference.

 

I took the static weight out of curiosity and it's 485 grams and D2 swing weight at 34 inches. I weighed the head when I had it apart and although it is stamped 350 it's actually more like 346. That means the shaft is about 55 grams including grip tape and epoxy (I calculated it to be around 50 considering it was 68 grams at original length of 47 inches). So, 345 gram head, 55 gram shaft and 85 gram grip. I've usually used this putter with about 100 gram shaft and 50 gram grip, so a static weight more around 495 grams. This current configuration is only 10 grams lighter but it feels like a lighter head. I practiced for about an hour and fifteen minutes with it on the putting green today and was getting used to the feel. The "X" factor is always me. I always experiment once I've deemed the season to be over. In the PacNW, we play all year round, but winter golf can be spotty. At the end of the summer season I was putting exceptionally well for me and my speed control had been excellent. I guess if nothing else I'll restore this stick to last year's configuration and try and get re-acclimated at the beginning of next season.

[FairwayFred]

I recently got fit for a putter by John Hatfield of Artisan Golf. The most interesting part of the fitting to me was the fitting for the balance point in the club. That's something that most other putter makers do not fit for and is really important imo. I used to use a super heavy putter w a 460g head and a 180g weight in the butt end of the shaft. (from about 2010 until the beginning of this year). After my fitting with John he said one of the most important spec numbers for me is a 9" balance point measured from the sole of the head up the shaft along with a heavier head. We achieved this with a 370g head and a 50g weight. This allowed for me to feel the most comfortable and release the head the most constant. When I got home I checked my heavy forever gamer and it was exactly 9" balance point also. I think this is a very important and under rated aspect of putter fitting.

[SwingMan]

Been paying attention to putting recently -- and ordered a 370g putter, 115g grip at 34.25 in looking for a swingweight of D8 -- slightly heavier putter but with a lighter than normal swingweight. When I take a practice stroke, I like a balance from the combo of head and grip -- the head heavy putter will outrace the hands if too heavy - I like the hands and putterhead moving together in balance.

[ghoonk]

Just picked up on this thread and it's piqued my interest because I've been ditching the option of a 320g Wilson 8802 putter in favour of heavier Bettinardi Studio Stock 6 at 358g. The grip on the SS6 is a Bettinardi grip that weighs around 52g.

 

Based on what you guys are saying, swingweight would be as important to consider, if not more so, and an appropriately lightweight grip on an 8802 might deliver a similar balance and feel (of sorts) as my SS6. Is that correct?

[SwingMan]

Just picked up on this thread and it's piqued my interest because I've been ditching the option of a 320g Wilson 8802 putter in favour of heavier Bettinardi Studio Stock 6 at 358g. The grip on the SS6 is a Bettinardi grip that weighs around 52g.

 

Based on what you guys are saying, swingweight would be as important to consider, if not more so, and an appropriately lightweight grip on an 8802 might deliver a similar balance and feel (of sorts) as my SS6. Is that correct?

 

Yes, 320g is very light - I don't know the length of your putter but getting a 40g grip may help in terms of swingweight. But even then, a light putter with a light grip may not give you the stability that the Bett gives you - the Bett is heavier overall and with a 52g grip, which is a traditional weight, it probably has a heavy swingweight. Everyone is different - some think a D7-8 swingweight in general is a sweetspot for most golfers - distance control with head feel.

 

EDIT: Winn has a round grip at 22g - it is round. I have used a round grip on a putter and it worked well. Did not have to worry if the installer has it square. Round grip and a couple of wraps and it should be very light.

 

Onto more discussion --

 

Amongst the stable, I have an Odyssey 35 in with a swingweight of E3 - it's a little head heavy. Taking a stroke through the air, one can feel the putterhead outracing the grip - to balance it out, I'd go with a heavier grip to counterbalance and/or cut it down to my normal 34.5 inches - I think a heavy, but not too heavy putter - let's say 355-370g depending on length - and D8 or so gives you a balance of stability and distance control. I'm working on that premise this year.

 

Of course, the best solution may be a two putter solution - heavy/high MOI from 6-8 feet and in, and lighter traditional putter from greater distance.

 

Right now, I'm working on progressive putting. From a certain distance, let's say more than 20 feet, I will use a little wrist and elbows, and then from knockng it in distance of 20 ft or less, I'm going to a rock the shoulders stroke. Another way to get more athletic from longer distance.

[Matt J]

Just picked up on this thread and it's piqued my interest because I've been ditching the option of a 320g Wilson 8802 putter in favour of heavier Bettinardi Studio Stock 6 at 358g. The grip on the SS6 is a Bettinardi grip that weighs around 52g.

 

Based on what you guys are saying, swingweight would be as important to consider, if not more so, and an appropriately lightweight grip on an 8802 might deliver a similar balance and feel (of sorts) as my SS6. Is that correct?

 

I think the trouble with your situation is that the 52 gram grip is already pretty light. It's tough to find grips much lighter than 50 grams. I have a Salty Mid-Plus on an 8802 style putter (Flanigan Bilt) and the grip weighs about 37 grams. That's as light of a putter grip as I know of, it's made of cork like a fly fishing rod's handle. The Flanigan Bilt is a very heavy head for an 8802 style at 335 grams and with the light grip mine swing weights at E0. They are affordable and well made IMO, so that might be a solution for you if you prefer a heel shafted putter, like the 8802.

 

In essence, what we're getting at is that a light grip is the opposite of counter weighting. With a counter weight you can make the head feel lighter by introducing weight in the grip, so look at it like a balance. If you have a light head and want to make it feel heavier you need to go with a relatively heavy shaft (steel) and a really light grip. Traditional grips were around 60 grams, but since the oversized putter grips have become popular there is no real standard.

 

It's a tough thing to figure out without some trial and error. One trick that I use, is that I pull the shafts and leave the grip on the shaft, so I can always go back. You do need to know your preferred playing length for that to work.

 

Also, I think it's important to note.... you can learn to putt with anything! It's a huge trend to go to these really heavy heads because you can counterweight them. I would not be surprised if this reverses back to heads in the 340 gram range in the future. With no counter weight and a relatively light grip, 330 to 340 grams works well for me on a wide range of green speeds. I think that's why you see a lot of pros at around 340 grams of head weight. They play greens that are pretty fast every week, but there is some discrepancy with the bermuda, poa annua, and bentgrass they can see on any given week.

[ghoonk]

That's the thing - there are now 2 aspects in play here

 

1. Swingweight - if i have 5 putters with different headweights but same swingweight, they should (mostly) feel the same, assuming also that they are of the same design, i.e. anser blade, mallet, etc - can't compare an 8802 style vs mallet

 

2. Headweight - to me, headweight is about mass. More mass = more stability on off-center hits (or am I wrong here?)

 

In essence, a 370g putter might seem heavy, but with the right swingweight, it delivers a smoother stroke (too light vs just right vs sledgehammer cumbersome) and more stability

 

As such, usiing a 325g 8802 head and getting it to the same swingwight as my Bettinardi SS6 might be simple enough, but in comparison, off-center strikes would compromise accuracy more, correct?

 

@leftyDH04 - thanks for the reference for the grip - I'll have to check it out!

@swingman - a two putter solution seems intriguing, and like you, 2019 is the year of putter tinkering (alongside iron tinkering and driver tinkering - if you guys don't hear from me in a few days, my wife has probbaly found this thread and I might be 6ft under in my backyard haha)

[Maximilian]

Only you will know for sure. A heavy putter with a heavy grip that comes to the same swingweight as a lighter putter with a lighter grip, feels completely different to me. Again, swingweight in a putter does not mean much to everyone.

 

More weight usually makes it more forgiving on off center hits, yes. But you may find out that you make better contact with a lighter putter, you may rotate it better for your stroke and even more likely you may find you have better distance control with a lighter putter, so that may very well outweigh the benefits of having a more forgiving putter. But maybe not, you’ll have to figure that out for yourself.

[ghoonk]

I hear you - I get better distance control with a heavier putter. with lighter putters, my hands come into play more, and that's where trouble comes in - hands second guessing my head. I started noticing less hand manipulation with my SC American Classic III flanged blade, Miura MGP-03 and the Betti SS6, which is what got me thinking about this whole thing about swingweight vs headweight.

 

I guess the only way to find out is to buy that putter :)