Loft, lie adjustment

[mocokid]

I have AP1 heads only,and wondering if I should do loft lie adjustments before or after installing shafts?

[Jagpilotohio]

After installation. Bending machines require shafts in the heads to actually take a reading.

[mocokid]

Thanks

[Awainer1]

This is a loaded question but I won’t go there

[HitaHouse]

Maybe both? If you do major adjustments after shafting, it may cause your swingweights to be slightly off.

[halliedog]

After installation. Bending machines require shafts in the heads to actually take a reading.

 

I would assume anyone with a loft/lie bending setup would most likely have a spare shaft floating around that could be dry fit into hosel for measuring purposes? Or maybe you don't get as accurate of a reading - just wondering?

[Jagpilotohio]

After installation. Bending machines require shafts in the heads to actually take a reading.

 

I would assume anyone with a loft/lie bending setup would most likely have a spare shaft floating around that could be dry fit into hosel for measuring purposes? Or maybe you don't get as accurate of a reading - just wondering?

 

Yes. Far less accurate. There is nearly always some slop in any dry fitting of a shaft. It can move around a bit until it’s glued in place. It will never give an accurate reading until it’s glued.

[halliedog]

After installation. Bending machines require shafts in the heads to actually take a reading.

 

I would assume anyone with a loft/lie bending setup would most likely have a spare shaft floating around that could be dry fit into hosel for measuring purposes? Or maybe you don't get as accurate of a reading - just wondering?

 

Yes. Far less accurate. There is nearly always some slop in any dry fitting of a shaft. It can move around a bit until it’s glued in place. It will never give an accurate reading until it’s glued.

 

Understood! I'd suppose you could shim, but no real advantage to doing bending before shafting as to after so why bother, unless you were going to be doing some type of refinishing project, then you might want to get loft/lie angles as close as possible to minimize need for bending after the new finish is applied.

[Awainer1]

ok I cant help myself. Lie angle isnt measured using the grooves its measured by using a loft lie gauge. And if youre doing it any way else than you might as well do it however you want because your measurements will be wrong.

[Jagpilotohio]

ok I cant help myself. Lie angle isnt measured using the grooves its measured by using a loft lie gauge. And if youre doing it any way else than you might as well do it however you want because your measurements will be wrong.

 

Huh? What are you responding to? Your comment isn’t connected to anything on this thread.

[Awainer1]

ok I cant help myself. Lie angle isnt measured using the grooves its measured by using a loft lie gauge. And if youre doing it any way else than you might as well do it however you want because your measurements will be wrong.

 

Huh? What are you responding to? Your comment isn’t connected to anything on this thread.

 

ya it does. The right way to measure lie angle is with a club head in a loft lie gauge and shaft that can measure a straight shot from the centerline. then once the shaft is installed you have your lie angle as long as its nice and snug. Therefore you have an iron with a lie angle independent whatever shaft you put in there. You dont need a shaft to measure a lie angle just something to measure the club in a gauge with no taper essentially. But i realize that I'm giving a complicated answer to a simple question. Next someone will chime in about dynamic fitting and "The Sharpie Method"

[Jagpilotohio]

ok I cant help myself. Lie angle isnt measured using the grooves its measured by using a loft lie gauge. And if youre doing it any way else than you might as well do it however you want because your measurements will be wrong.

 

Huh? What are you responding to? Your comment isn’t connected to anything on this thread.

 

ya it does. The right way to measure lie angle is with a club head in a loft lie gauge and shaft that can measure a straight shot from the centerline. then once the shaft is installed you have your lie angle as long as its nice and snug. Therefore you have an iron with a lie angle independent whatever shaft you put in there. You dont need a shaft to measure a lie angle just something to measure the club in a gauge with no taper essentially. But i realize that I'm giving a complicated answer to a simple question and probably is wayyy too advanced for the question posed.

 

Sorry. That’s incorrect. How the club is actually going to PLAY is the only lie angle or loft angle that actually matters and is the one that is established after the shaft is glued in place. Shafts can easily vary in their insertion angle by a degree or more. The measurement of the sole to the centerline of the hosel for lie, or the measurement of the face angle in relation to the centerline of the hosel for loft becomes nearly irrelevant once the shaft is inserted.

 

Those measurements without the shaft installed are obviously critically important In the manufacturer and design of the head, but not in the building, fitting, and actual use of the head.

[Awainer1]

ok I cant help myself. Lie angle isnt measured using the grooves its measured by using a loft lie gauge. And if youre doing it any way else than you might as well do it however you want because your measurements will be wrong.

 

Huh? What are you responding to? Your comment isn't connected to anything on this thread.

 

ya it does. The right way to measure lie angle is with a club head in a loft lie gauge and shaft that can measure a straight shot from the centerline. then once the shaft is installed you have your lie angle as long as its nice and snug. Therefore you have an iron with a lie angle independent whatever shaft you put in there. You dont need a shaft to measure a lie angle just something to measure the club in a gauge with no taper essentially. But i realize that I'm giving a complicated answer to a simple question and probably is wayyy too advanced for the question posed.

 

Sorry. That's incorrect. How the club is actually going to PLAY is the only lie angle or loft angle that actually matters and is the one that is established after the shaft is glued in place. Shafts can easily vary in their insertion angle by a degree or more. The measurement of the sole to the centerline of the hosel for lie, or the measurement of the face angle in relation to the centerline of the hosel for loft becomes nearly irrelevant once the shaft is inserted.

 

Those measurements without the shaft installed are obviously critically important In the manufacturer and design of the head, but not in the building, fitting, and actual use of the head.

 

according to you its incorrect. How do you know shafts can vary in their insertion angle by "a degree or more" assuming the shaft fits properly in the head. Have you measured this?

[Jagpilotohio]

ok I cant help myself. Lie angle isnt measured using the grooves its measured by using a loft lie gauge. And if youre doing it any way else than you might as well do it however you want because your measurements will be wrong.

 

Huh? What are you responding to? Your comment isn't connected to anything on this thread.

 

ya it does. The right way to measure lie angle is with a club head in a loft lie gauge and shaft that can measure a straight shot from the centerline. then once the shaft is installed you have your lie angle as long as its nice and snug. Therefore you have an iron with a lie angle independent whatever shaft you put in there. You dont need a shaft to measure a lie angle just something to measure the club in a gauge with no taper essentially. But i realize that I'm giving a complicated answer to a simple question and probably is wayyy too advanced for the question posed.

 

Sorry. That's incorrect. How the club is actually going to PLAY is the only lie angle or loft angle that actually matters and is the one that is established after the shaft is glued in place. Shafts can easily vary in their insertion angle by a degree or more. The measurement of the sole to the centerline of the hosel for lie, or the measurement of the face angle in relation to the centerline of the hosel for loft becomes nearly irrelevant once the shaft is inserted.

 

Those measurements without the shaft installed are obviously critically important In the manufacturer and design of the head, but not in the building, fitting, and actual use of the head.

 

according to you its incorrect. How do you know shafts can vary in their insertion angle by "a degree or more" assuming the shaft fits properly in the head. Have you measured this?

 

Yes. Absolutely. There is a huge amount of angular variation in how a shaft sits if the hosel bore is the slightest bit too big and the shaft is not snug. It is magnified if people chose not to use the proper collared ferrules which dramatically help center the top of the shaft.

 

There is another incredibly important variable I forget to even bring up. The hosel bore itself. There is definitely no guarantee that the hosel bore is even drilled dead straight. I’ve seen obviously cockeyed bores numerous times over the years,

 

Lord forbid if you get a hosel bore drilled at a slightly leaning angle AND you have a little slop in the fit of the shaft so that it leans as well in your already “leaning” hosel bore hole. Things can get VERY out of whack when compared to that “perfect” measurement you get from looking just at the hosel centerline.

 

 

[Awainer1]

Well then why did I just send a box of heads to Colorado for Tom Wishon to spec check for me? I guess that was a waste of time or I should send him another box of shafts to make sure his measurements are correct

[Jagpilotohio]

Well then why did I just send a box of heads to Colorado for Tom Wishon to spec check for me? I guess that was a waste of time or I should send him another box of shafts to make sure his measurements are correct

 

No, no. Getting heads checked before you start assembly is certainly a fine idea.. There’s nothing wrong with that. You are establishing a “base line” or a starting point to know exactly what you are working with. That’s great. Definitely not a waste of time.

 

I’m just saying that if there are any imperfections in the angle of the hosel bores, or if there ends up being a lean in the shaft because of the bore or because the shaft sits in them a bit too loose, then you will end up with EFFECTIVE angles that will vary from the pre-build “perfect” angles.

 

You still always must measure and adjust the final product after they are built so that they actually PLAY at the exact angles you want. If the heads are well made, and the bores are good and straight, and the shaft sits nicely and snugly in the hosel with the proper collared ferrule....then your end results SHOULD be very close to you pre build measurements......but that is a lot to hope for. There are multiple variables there.

 

Just always assume that when they are finished they will likely not be perfect and will require some fine tuning. If you check them and they are perfect....awesome!! ....but just don’t expect that they will be. All great builds tweak lofts and lies after the epoxy sets, ideally with a dynamic fitting actually hitting balls on a driving range.