Bandon Dunes 5th Course (Sheep Ranch)

[philsRHman]

> @spud3 said:

> https://www.golf.com/travel/2019/04/17/new-bandon-dunes-golf-course-architect/

>

> The cat is definitely out of the bag.

 

Very well orchestrated rollout. I'm sure they offered Matty G the exclusive because of all the love (notice they had his piece live on the media section of their site at launch?). Then the embargo lifts and everyone's free to post.

[marks21]

I received an email this morning directly from Bandon.

The email contained the following the link with more information.

http://www.sheepranch.golf/

 

 

[Matt J]

> @philsRHman said:

> I thought it was telling that Ginella told the story through Phil, that seems orchestrated to let him "own" this.

> I wonder how it works on the business side to have a partnership on one of the courses (will revenue be determined by play?) but I guess there was no rush to monetize that parcel. I'm no real estate expert but I can't even imagine how quickly the value of that land skyrocketed once the success was assured.

> I didn't get the video to play when I linked right to the site. But WOW when I clicked that link from @spud3 !!!!

 

Success is never assured. I am a real estate expert and am competent in assessing value in and around Bandon, but it's a very unusual situation. The land is absolutely amazing, but it's very difficult to "do" very much with any of it. The way the resort structures their pricing, and the requirement to stay on property to make tee times, actually results in no residual value to the residential real estate nearby. You can literally buy a build-able lot within a very short commute of the resort at a very reasonable price. But, you would have to book all of your tee times no sooner than 30 days out and pay full rack rate on your rounds. Right now, the only golf alternative is Bandon Crossings, which I've played once and am ambivalent about ever playing again. I would go, but it would take some great company I'm certainly not showing up to play it alone.

 

And, your observation is in fact very astute. A lot of these deals fall apart because both participants believe the land is "priceless." Not much happens in a capitalist system with "priceless." Golf courses in general are a very high risk business, so Mr. Keiser's success is truly astounding. Proof for much of the business world that there is still room for a "purist's vision" especially in recreation and tourism.

[spud3]

Interesting stuff, Matt. Depending on the availability of suitable land for golf, do you think there's any way that the Bandon area becomes something like Myrtle Beach? From what I've read, I don't think the community of Bandon wants to go that route.

 

Personally, I'd love to build a nice retirement home close to the resort. I could live with making tee times 21 days out...

[philsRHman]

> @"Matt J" said:

> > @philsRHman said:

> > I thought it was telling that Ginella told the story through Phil, that seems orchestrated to let him "own" this.

> > I wonder how it works on the business side to have a partnership on one of the courses (will revenue be determined by play?) but I guess there was no rush to monetize that parcel. I'm no real estate expert but I can't even imagine how quickly the value of that land skyrocketed once the success was assured.

> > I didn't get the video to play when I linked right to the site. But WOW when I clicked that link from @spud3 !!!!

>

> Success is never assured. I am a real estate expert and am competent in assessing value in and around Bandon, but it's a very unusual situation. The land is absolutely amazing, but it's very difficult to "do" very much with any of it. The way the resort structures their pricing, and the requirement to stay on property to make tee times, actually results in no residual value to the residential real estate nearby. You can literally buy a build-able lot within a very short commute of the resort at a very reasonable price. But, you would have to book all of your tee times no sooner than 30 days out and pay full rack rate on your rounds. Right now, the only golf alternative is Bandon Crossings, which I've played once and am ambivalent about ever playing again. I would go, but it would take some great company I'm certainly not showing up to play it alone.

>

> And, your observation is in fact very astute. A lot of these deals fall apart because both participants believe the land is "priceless." Not much happens in a capitalist system with "priceless." Golf courses in general are a very high risk business, so Mr. Keiser's success is truly astounding. Proof for much of the business world that there is still room for a "purist's vision" especially in recreation and tourism.

 

Interesting. I guess when I said success was assured, I meant of Bandon Dunes as a resort. But I guess that wrongly assumed Phil was part of the purchase before BD and PD went live to rave reviews. The adjacency sort of gave them both mutually assured destruction/benefit and I still wonder why Keiser even needed a partner to buy up that land? Was it during the downturn, or while it was still unknown what level of success they were sitting on?

[Golfnuck]

Wow I am so glad that I got to play the Sheep Ranch two years ago.

On the day i played the wind was pushing the rain sideways. You could't leave your bag standing up.

If we were not playing the Sheep Ranch there is noway I would have ventured out even for the other Bandon courses.

 

 

[duffer987]

> @spud3 said:

> Interesting stuff, Matt. Depending on the availability of suitable land for golf, do you think there's any way that the Bandon area becomes something like Myrtle Beach? From what I've read, I don't think the community of Bandon wants to go that route.

>

> Personally, I'd love to build a nice retirement home close to the resort. I could live with making tee times 21 days out...

 

It could never go that way for pretty much every reason that would go into determining it; accessibility, weather, infrastructure, desire (as you mention), cost...

And nothing against the fine people of the Carolinas but MB is a bit of a wrx-language-filter-hole.

[Stevo85]

 

Just going to leave this here. Biggest issue with all of this? Now how am I supposed to pick a favorite 16th hole??

 

[kanard1]

I just walked by it!!

 

[Matt J]

The numbers are probably going to change.

 

Sounds like Keiser will have to go back in and decide where the lodging, restaurant, pro shop, and practice green will be. For some reason I always assumed it would be where you parked during the Ballybandon days. On the routing photo above that would be right in the middle of the 11th fairway. My guess would be once they figure out power, water, and septic the club house will be up in that southeast corner where the 8 green and 9 tee box sits.

 

It does appear that whether it has to do with limiting the fight with the state and county or just their own environmental sensibilities they are trying to cut down as few trees as possible. Those are interesting notes where Coore pencils in that he designed it to leave as much native plant life as possible.

[Matt J]

Just re-reading some of your comments and I'll do my best....

 

This piece was purchased around the completion of Pacific Dunes. So, the resort was in fact doing pretty well and was getting established. I think I am correct in saying that Mr. Keiser was pretty tapped as far as his "slush fund" for expanding BD and so Mr. Friedman joined in with the acquisition as they used funds from their joint venture in the greeting cards business. I think Phil got a lot that he built a home on and basically the Sheep's Ranch went in as his private 12 hole course. I'd have to re-read Dream Golf to quote exactly what the deal was, but I'm pretty sure that that piece was what allowed for Old Mac to be built and it came together with the idea that with 4 courses they would be more successful as the chief complaint was that only 1 or 2 courses would get dull for players after a visit or two.

 

I've argued for several years that I think the coast could re-invent itself with amazing links golf. I would never in a million years use Myrtle Beach to frame that argument, perhaps East Lothian or Fife, Scotland. East Lothian is a bit like Pebble Beach and the Monterey Peninsula as a playground for the wealthy and there is a lot of blowback from the community that they don't want to "priced out" of their region. Unfortunately that is happening rather quickly without more golf and it has nothing to do with the resort and everything to do with the sea and beaches.

 

As mentioned by other posters, the dream of much more golf is rather unobtainable. The coast is a hotbed for contention on land use and the "Not in by Backyard" preservationist groups generally win.

 

The Knapp ranch and Pacific Gales (I prefer the Scottish spelling "Gails" but I guess I should get used to writing it correctly) is foreseeably the last great piece of links land that will be developed by a private entity. I do believe it is possible for more projects like Chambers Bay where a municipal government secures some private partnerships. At this time, I think it would take municipal involvement or a massive shift in the way the state of Oregon looks at land management for more golf to be built on the coast.

 

Spud, when you get ready to build down there let me know. I've got a few irons in the fire down that way and am hoping to expand my presence in the next year. My financial situation would have to improve markedly for making it attractive for me to be there very much. I like to play twice a week, so if I spent a month there in the summer I'd be spending $2,300 a month in greens fees and not be guaranteed to get to play with another friend or better yet get a whole foursome on the course. That's part of the reason I'm so keen on seeing the direction this Pacific Gales course takes and I should have some more information in the next week or two as parts of it seem to be coming together soon.

[spud3]

> @philsRHman said:

> > @"Matt J" said:

> > > @philsRHman said:

> > > I thought it was telling that Ginella told the story through Phil, that seems orchestrated to let him "own" this.

> > > I wonder how it works on the business side to have a partnership on one of the courses (will revenue be determined by play?) but I guess there was no rush to monetize that parcel. I'm no real estate expert but I can't even imagine how quickly the value of that land skyrocketed once the success was assured.

> > > I didn't get the video to play when I linked right to the site. But WOW when I clicked that link from @spud3 !!!!

> >

> > Success is never assured. I am a real estate expert and am competent in assessing value in and around Bandon, but it's a very unusual situation. The land is absolutely amazing, but it's very difficult to "do" very much with any of it. The way the resort structures their pricing, and the requirement to stay on property to make tee times, actually results in no residual value to the residential real estate nearby. You can literally buy a build-able lot within a very short commute of the resort at a very reasonable price. But, you would have to book all of your tee times no sooner than 30 days out and pay full rack rate on your rounds. Right now, the only golf alternative is Bandon Crossings, which I've played once and am ambivalent about ever playing again. I would go, but it would take some great company I'm certainly not showing up to play it alone.

> >

> > And, your observation is in fact very astute. A lot of these deals fall apart because both participants believe the land is "priceless." Not much happens in a capitalist system with "priceless." Golf courses in general are a very high risk business, so Mr. Keiser's success is truly astounding. Proof for much of the business world that there is still room for a "purist's vision" especially in recreation and tourism.

>

> Interesting. I guess when I said success was assured, I meant of Bandon Dunes as a resort. But I guess that wrongly assumed Phil was part of the purchase before BD and PD went live to rave reviews. The adjacency sort of gave them both mutually assured destruction/benefit and I still wonder why Keiser even needed a partner to buy up that land? Was it during the downturn, or while it was still unknown what level of success they were sitting on?

 

According to the book I'm reading right now by Bruce Johnson ("Beyond the Dream" - Johnson was in charge of the landscape design and implementation from the resort's inception), Keiser was heavily leveraged in the resort at the time the property became available. He apparently isn't real fond of the partner idea, but this time he needed one.

 

But to Matt's point, success was not at all assured when they opened the resort. Quite the opposite. Most people thought he was nuts.

[cardoustie]

I have to get to Bandon

[spud3]

> @"Matt J" said:

> Spud, when you get ready to build down there let me know. I've got a few irons in the fire down that way and am hoping to expand my presence in the next year. My financial situation would have to improve markedly for making it attractive for me to be there very much. I like to play twice a week, so if I spent a month there in the summer I'd be spending $2,300 a month in greens fees and not be guaranteed to get to play with another friend or better yet get a whole foursome on the course. That's part of the reason I'm so keen on seeing the direction this Pacific Gales course takes and I should have some more information in the next week or two as parts of it seem to be coming together soon.

 

Still in the concept phase. More likely I'd end up in the Florence area, but you never know.

 

Mrs. Spud will have a great deal to say on the matter...

[cardoustie]

the land looks remarkably similar to Cabot Cliffs (which I loved !)

[spud3]

With all that said about the economics of turning the SR into a full size course, I'm just damn glad I got to play it in its original form (thanks Nick and Rob!). It was one of the coolest things I've done with a golf club in my hands.

 

I'm 50/50 on transforming that land into a full course. I have no doubts that C&C will make a spectacular track out of that piece of land. Possibly even the best course at the resort. But I will miss the purity of the old Sheep Ranch experience.

 

RIP.

[Matt J]

I feel the same way, Spud.

 

Part of me just feels it's a piece of a bigger good. If that's what it takes for the resort to continue to be successful and be the standard bearer for a "pure golf" experience then so be it.

 

I only played it once. I brought 8 guys, a cooler full of beer, a hibachi, brats, and chips. We had gorgeous weather, we played a few hours then had lunch, then played a few more hours. Mostly an 8 guy horse race type format. It was a ton of fun.

 

We played out onto that green at 5 Mile Point about 6 times. We all made an eagle when we walked off to the north and caught a glimpse of this guy....

 

 

 

 

[duffer987]

From a lame-O practical POV, it will be interesting to see what they do infrastructure wise.

I assume they'll widen out and pave that service road that goes behind Old Mac 17/18 to make it to the new clubhouse and having another lodging option'll be great.

[Matt J]

> @duffer987 said:

> From a lame-O practical POV, it will be interesting to see what they do infrastructure wise.

> I assume they'll widen out and pave that service road that goes behind Old Mac 17/18 to make it to the new clubhouse and having another lodging option'll be great.

 

It will be interesting.

 

That Whiskey Run Beach Access will have to remain open to the public. In the past you went all the way out to the intersection of Seven Devils and Randolph to access the property. I would imagine you are correct that the resort would prefer to create access from Old MacDonald for the shuttle services. There will be a lot of moving pieces when it comes to water, sewer, and septic considering the state and county authorities that govern each. I, and I assume most of you, have faith that the resort will develop the growth with the understated class and efficiency that has governed the other stages of development. My guess is that considering the views, the housing units will be the most prestigious and expensive on the property. Especially considering it will be 24 units. That sounds like 6 units built for 4somes.

[duffer987]

^Build a bridge over the Whiskey Run Ln to the beach? I've never been down there, so wondered if going over is easier than under? In regards to having a private lane over the public access.

[Matt J]

Just a 4 way stop I'm sure, with two private property no access signs. Same as the entrances without the guard shacks. Always guessed they put the shacks in to discourage local teenagers. The whole place is hard to get into and out of, so not the kind of place you're going to run into a lot of extraneous traffic.

[Chanceman]

Playing the old sheep ranch in 2017 was brilliant and no doubt the new 2020 version will be spectacular. A great excuse for another trip in 2021 but this time we are going to fly in - driving 10 hours from SFO was a tad too much.

[mallrat]

> @"Matt J" said:

> If I combine some of the information from Dream Golf and also caddie gossip and some insider information, all of what is presented in that article seems pretty on point. Mr. Keiser, as stated in Dream Golf, passed on the Knapp family ranch which will become Pacific Gails due to not wanting to take on a partner, which he is evidently pretty opposed to in general. But, as his son has become more involved with the golf operations and having known and worked with Phil Friedman for many years, it seems he has softened to the idea of doing this project together with Phil. I actually always guessed that Phil had sold his portion of that acquisition back to Mr. Keiser, but I think this is even greater, that he got involved with the project. I think Ginella does a good job presenting that as part of the reason Bill Coore got the job. Gil Hanse was slated for the Bandon Muni project, but when it ran into the final road block I think a lot of people supposed he would get the Sheep's Ranch job. Clearly, that wasn't true, but I can see how the rumor was started as he did present a routing.

>

> My own personal taste would be that they moved less dirt, put very punitive links pot bunkers very sparsely positioned inside the fairways and left these "waste" area seeded with "wispy fescue" on the margins of the course. I do think it's very smart for Mike and Phil to realize that crazy greens are not suitable for these windy parcels of land. A big "Biarritz" feature on a green would be cool, and create a counter to the way Doak did it on 8 at Old Mac. My personal taste once again would be more like the West Links at North Berwick's No. 16 "Gate."

>

> That's one thing I took away from the classic links courses is that they leave much of the big elevation changes for immediately off the green, in the complex with deep hills filled with bunkers that totally get in your head. There's a certain fairness in having a decent chance to 2 putt once you get to the surface. And as Keiser is certainly aware of at this point in his great golf adventures, very difficult pin positions are the absolute worst thing for pace and that's clearly should be a concern at a place like BD.

>

> Anyways, like many of you I'll be looking forward to playing it. It will be a welcome addition and make for an very interesting 2020 - 2021 season especially if Pacific Gails breaks ground, too. I'm starting to think that is more likely as there is a distinct advantage in opening around the same time as many will visit and play both.

 

From my understanding Hanse was supposed to do the course originally but then the other owner did not want to develop the property. Over time Hanse picked up other jobs and once Sheep Ranch became available I heard he was almost 2 years out. Supposedly after C&C were awarded the course Hanse & Keiser had a meeting because Hanse thought Keiser didn’t like him and that was when he got Sand Valley (I believe). These were rumors on property but makes a lot of sense to me.

[Matt J]

In the little video by Ginella for GolfAdvisor posted above they claim that Keiser and Friedman went and played Hanse's course at Streamsong and the green contours were too severe. Probably having David Kidd McLay nightmares and not wanting to pay someone for more site visits to mellow the "resort" greens to keep pace under 6 hours.

 

I know, due to my minor involvement, that losing the land swap deal that was going to be the "Chick Evans" Bandon Muni was a major kick in the nut sack for the senior management. My intuition was that because that was already committed to Hanse that words were exchanged at the time along the lines of IF we ever develop the 5th course on property that he would get a shot at it, then the Streamsong Black experience changed their mind. It was also said multiple times, just as Mallrat is saying, that Hanse just got real busy around the same time in the post-Olympic course frenzy.

 

It seems reasonable that after giving several top architects a shot at a routing that Bill Coore's was just the best of the lot. My $.02 which is worth less than that.... there is a ton of ego involved when projects of these magnitudes are getting off the ground. Architects hate having smaller parcels to work with and it seems Coore was the only one that really embraced a very tight layout on an amazing piece of land. I advocated on the state park land swap to just put the number of holes in that fit and were comfortable and great golf holes. If that was 14 so be it, 16 or 17 great. The fear was that golfers are hung up on a par 72, if you threw a par 55 or something at them they wouldn't embrace the challenge. You can't brag that you shot a 53 on a par 55 as easily as a 69 on a 72.

 

I think that with Doak, Kidd, and Coore having courses on the property no one new wanted to start with a smaller plot of land and be compared to contemporaries that did not have such restraints.

 

The more I think of the "no bunkers" idea the less I like it. I'm guessing that will mean that they will move a ton of dirt out there to create fairway contours that "don't require" bunkers. To me that compromises the idea that they are "links" courses. Every old course i played in Scotland uses small very punitive bunkers to change your tee shots based on your distance off the tee and the wind and weather. Most of the fairway lies are pretty flat, albeit tight, but if you miss the green sometimes you find yourself 20 feet below the hole. It's something I had not read about, and was very pleasantly surprised to play. It's the opposite of the heavily contoured green in that you feel adequately punished for missing the surface but you have a creative opportunity to get back in the hole either playing some kind of cool ground shot or flying it up to the proper tier of the green. The "bandon-like" fairways like the Renaissance Club in East Lothian by Tom Doak are not very popular with the locals. They're tough to walk, they're punitive, they play much harder in the wind when finding a fairway in itself is a good accomplishment. The top tier amateur players are excited for the challenge like the upcoming Scotland Open being played there, but no one seems that intrigued to go out and play it regularly.

[Bholden52]

> @duffer987 said:

> From a lame-O practical POV, it will be interesting to see what they do infrastructure wise.

> I assume they'll widen out and pave that service road that goes behind Old Mac 17/18 to make it to the new clubhouse and having another lodging option'll be great.

 

You are correct. I was there at the end of March and that's what the shuttle driver was telling me. The initial plan is to have dedicated shuttles running from Practice Range to SR via that road. Thus is you are staying at the lodge, you will shuttle to the Practice Facility and then shuttle to SR.

[duffer987]

[philsRHman]

With the benefit of 20 years experience, what do you expect they'll do about turf selection on the greens? Seems they've given up the fight to keep poa out of the fescue around the resort (although OM seems to be hanging in there, although poa is starting to take hold). Will they just start there this time?

[spud3]

I had that same question come to my mind.

 

They are being quite open this time about how the course is coming, press dispatches, pics, etc.

[Matt J]

Let's hope they order grown grass sod from whomever Chambers Bay bought it from... seems to be working out spades!

[spud3]

Thinking a bit more about it, I don't know that they would need to go directly to the poa. It took 15+ years for the fescue greens to get to where they need to be replaced. Which is I think about normal for a green's lifespan before it needs some major renovation, especially on a sand-based platform. They may just go with the fescue mix. Personally, I hope they go fescue. I loved the greens when they were all fescue.