Varner ruling.

[Halebopp]

I just read the Interpretation 4.1b(4)/1 and according to that there is no penalty for the player if he assembles a club from components brought him onto the course provided those components were brought to him from outside the course and nobody had carried them for him.

 

It seems that the story just does not add up...

 

EDIT: Did he repair his club or replace it? If former, then he was in breach.

 

From my understanding, he intended to tee off with 13 clubs and add one rather than replacing it.

 

But it seems unclear if the shaft from the club that broke pre-round was in his bag or being carried by the standard bearer. But just carrying a shaft would not constitute carrying a club. However, if the shaft was already out on the course, it could not be used in assembly of the new club.

 

Hope that provides some help.

It doesn't matter who carried the shaft. What matters is someone carried it for him.

[deadsolid...shank]

If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?

 

No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.

 

The club wasn’t in his bag though, so would it be considered a repair?

[rawdog]

I just read the Interpretation 4.1b(4)/1 and according to that there is no penalty for the player if he assembles a club from components brought him onto the course provided those components were brought to him from outside the course and nobody had carried them for him.

 

It seems that the story just does not add up...

 

EDIT: Did he repair his club or replace it? If former, then he was in breach.

 

From my understanding, he intended to tee off with 13 clubs and add one rather than replacing it.

 

But it seems unclear if the shaft from the club that broke pre-round was in his bag or being carried by the standard bearer. But just carrying a shaft would not constitute carrying a club. However, if the shaft was already out on the course, it could not be used in assembly of the new club.

 

Hope that provides some help.

It doesn't matter who carried the shaft. What matters is someone carried it for him.

 

True. Who had the shaft is unimportant. Where the shaft was when assembled into a club is what matters.

[Krt22]

2019 Rule: Under Rule 4.1: ➢ A player will be allowed to keep using and/or to repair any club damaged during the round, no matter what the damage and even if the player damaged it in anger.

 

The issue isnt repairing the club, the issue was it was "repaired" on the course. Really silly IMO. Had his agent taken the club and shaft to the bathroom and did the assembly, all good, right?

[KevCarter]

If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?

 

No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.

 

The club was never broken in the first place when he actually teed off. (if he handed the shaft off prior to teeing off). Not to mention replacing a broken club is now allowed.

 

To your second point, nothing to do with Varner.

 

(3) No Replacing Lost or Damaged Clubs. If a player started with 14 clubs or added clubs up to the limit of 14 and then loses or damages a club during the round or while play is stopped under Rule 5.7a, the player must not replace it with another club.

[rawdog]

If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?

 

No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.

 

The club wasn’t in his bag though, so would it be considered a repair?

 

Correct. It wasn't on course when he started the round. The shaft apparently was, so still not a club. I read the rule as if the shaft were taken off course and mated with a head while still off course, this "new" club could be added to the bag.

 

But what happened was it was paired with a head while on the course, so penalty.

[rawdog]

2019 Rule: Under Rule 4.1: ➢ A player will be allowed to keep using and/or to repair any club damaged during the round, no matter what the damage and even if the player damaged it in anger.

 

The issue isnt repairing the club, the issue was it was "repaired" on the course. Really silly IMO. Had his agent taken the club and shaft to the bathroom and did the assembly, all good, right?

 

It never existed as a club on the course, so no repair.. It was broken pre round and apparently only the shaft was taken on course.

 

So he had 13 clubs and a "new" club was assembled on course, which is not permitted.

[deadsolid...shank]

If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?

 

No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.

 

The club wasn’t in his bag though, so would it be considered a repair?

 

Correct. It wasn't on course when he started the round. The shaft apparently was, so still not a club. I read the rule as if the shaft were taken off course and mated with a head while still off course, this "new" club could be added to the bag.

 

But what happened was it was paired with a head while on the course, so penalty.

 

Which brings us back full circle to, we really need to know how and what exactly HV said to the official in regards to what he was planning on doing.

 

I really believe, after thinking about it, that HV didn’t make it clear that someone was just bringing the head out to him on the course and they would attaché it there. If he had said that surely the official would have corrected him. I have to believe the official thought someone was bringing out a complete club to him.

 

Will be a new rule for the caddies (by the players, not a golf rule), no wrenches in the bag while on the course. Eliminate the possibility.

[rawdog]

If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?

 

No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.

 

The club wasn’t in his bag though, so would it be considered a repair?

 

Correct. It wasn't on course when he started the round. The shaft apparently was, so still not a club. I read the rule as if the shaft were taken off course and mated with a head while still off course, this "new" club could be added to the bag.

 

But what happened was it was paired with a head while on the course, so penalty.

 

Which brings us back full circle to, we really need to know how and what exactly HV said to the official in regards to what he was planning on doing.

 

I really believe, after thinking about it, that HV didn’t make it clear that someone was just bringing the head out to him on the course and they would attaché it there. If he had said that surely the official would have corrected him. I have to believe the official thought someone was bringing out a complete club to him.

 

Will be a new rule for the caddies (by the players, not a golf rule), no wrenches in the bag while on the course. Eliminate the possibility.

 

Your guess as to what transpired closely aligns with mine.

[Halebopp]

If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?

 

No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.

 

The club wasn’t in his bag though, so would it be considered a repair?

 

Correct. It wasn't on course when he started the round. The shaft apparently was, so still not a club. I read the rule as if the shaft were taken off course and mated with a head while still off course, this "new" club could be added to the bag.

 

But what happened was it was paired with a head while on the course, so penalty.

Not quite, he could've assembled the club from the parts brought to him onto the course. The only issue is the shaft was carried on the course for him during the round.

[deadsolid...shank]

It appears to be another rule where a lot of knowledgeable people (present company very much excluded!) can’t or don’t agree on what could have or should have been done. Is there really not a way to word these in a easier to read and understand fashion?

[rawdog]

If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?

 

No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.

 

The club wasn’t in his bag though, so would it be considered a repair?

 

Correct. It wasn't on course when he started the round. The shaft apparently was, so still not a club. I read the rule as if the shaft were taken off course and mated with a head while still off course, this "new" club could be added to the bag.

 

But what happened was it was paired with a head while on the course, so penalty.

Not quite, he could've assembled the club from the parts brought to him onto the course. The only issue is the shaft was carried on the course for him during the round.

 

Yes, thanks for that clarification. If the shaft hadn't been carried on the course during the round, he would've been ok.

[Krt22]

2019 Rule: Under Rule 4.1: ➢ A player will be allowed to keep using and/or to repair any club damaged during the round, no matter what the damage and even if the player damaged it in anger.

 

The issue isnt repairing the club, the issue was it was "repaired" on the course. Really silly IMO. Had his agent taken the club and shaft to the bathroom and did the assembly, all good, right?

 

It never existed as a club on the course, so no repair.. It was broken pre round and apparently only the shaft was taken on course.

 

So he had 13 clubs and a "new" club was assembled on course, which is not permitted.

 

Which is lame given the new rule about fixing broken clubs. So you break a club head/shaft, if you have a spare in the locker room its OK to take it there and fix it, not OK to fix it on the course?

 

The rule that was used makes sense when repairing a club wasn't allowed. You can add an assembled club during the round, but if you assemble it on the course it's now a penalty. The rule is obviously antiquated and not protecting anyone or anything given the state of modern equipment.

[Dpavs]

I think it gets even crazier if you think about just stepping OB getting handed the new part, putting the club together than stepping back in bounds once it is done.

[Halebopp]

It appears to be another rule where a lot of knowledgeable people (present company very much excluded!) can’t or don’t agree on what could have or should have been done. Is there really not a way to word these in a easier to read and understand fashion?

 

Don't mix opinions with actual rules. I don't know where these "you need to go OB to assemble the club" opinions are coming from.

 

Quote from the rule:

 

"When adding or replacing a club under (1) or (3), a player must not:

 

Build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round."

 

And a quote from an Interpretation:

 

"For example, if a player is permitted to add a club (see Rule 4.1b(1)) or replace a damaged club (see Rule 4.1b(3)), club components brought from the clubhouse (such as the player's locker), the golf shop, or a manufacturer's truck, or other similar locations, are not considered to be "carried by anyone for the player during the round" and are allowed to be assembled by the player or anyone else."

 

To me it seems quite clearly written. What I don't know is what exactly happened in this case. :)

[Shilgy]

If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?

 

No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.

 

The club wasn’t in his bag though, so would it be considered a repair?

 

Correct. It wasn't on course when he started the round. The shaft apparently was, so still not a club. I read the rule as if the shaft were taken off course and mated with a head while still off course, this "new" club could be added to the bag.

 

But what happened was it was paired with a head while on the course, so penalty.

 

Which brings us back full circle to, we really need to know how and what exactly HV said to the official in regards to what he was planning on doing.

 

I really believe, after thinking about it, that HV didn’t make it clear that someone was just bringing the head out to him on the course and they would attaché it there. If he had said that surely the official would have corrected him. I have to believe the official thought someone was bringing out a complete club to him.

 

Will be a new rule for the caddies (by the players, not a golf rule), no wrenches in the bag while on the course. Eliminate the possibility.

But it is okay to tighten the screw on the head of the club-just cannot change the position. You want the wrench with you.

[Shilgy]

2019 Rule: Under Rule 4.1: ➢ A player will be allowed to keep using and/or to repair any club damaged during the round, no matter what the damage and even if the player damaged it in anger.

 

The issue isnt repairing the club, the issue was it was "repaired" on the course. Really silly IMO. Had his agent taken the club and shaft to the bathroom and did the assembly, all good, right?

 

It never existed as a club on the course, so no repair.. It was broken pre round and apparently only the shaft was taken on course.

 

So he had 13 clubs and a "new" club was assembled on course, which is not permitted.

 

Which is lame given the new rule about fixing broken clubs. So you break a club head/shaft, if you have a spare in the locker room its OK to take it there and fix it, not OK to fix it on the course?

 

The rule that was used makes sense when repairing a club wasn't allowed. You can add an assembled club during the round, but if you assemble it on the course it's now a penalty. The rule is obviously antiquated and not protecting anyone or anything given the state of modern equipment.

You cannot replace it-you cannot reshaft it-nor put a new head on it. You can "repair" it. Meaning if it is bent you can straighten it.

[Sawgrass]

Here’s our three step process:

 

1) be outraged

 

2) demand a change in the rules

 

3) find out exactly what happened

[Mr. Bean]

If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?

 

No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.

 

The club wasn’t in his bag though, so would it be considered a repair?

 

Correct. It wasn't on course when he started the round. The shaft apparently was, so still not a club. I read the rule as if the shaft were taken off course and mated with a head while still off course, this "new" club could be added to the bag.

 

But what happened was it was paired with a head while on the course, so penalty.

 

No penalty. Please read the Interpretation 4.1b(4)/1. It does not matter where the club is assembled. What matters is where the components were before the assembly.

[Mr. Bean]

Here’s our three step process:

 

1) be outraged

 

2) demand a change in the rules

 

3) find out exactly what happened

 

2.5) blame all the innocent parties and reward the guilty ones

[KevCarter]

It appears to be another rule where a lot of knowledgeable people (present company very much excluded!) can’t or don’t agree on what could have or should have been done. Is there really not a way to word these in a easier to read and understand fashion?

 

Don't mix opinions with actual rules. I don't know where these "you need to go OB to assemble the club" opinions are coming from.

 

Quote from the rule:

 

"When adding or replacing a club under (1) or (3), a player must not:

 

Build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round."

 

And a quote from an Interpretation:

 

"For example, if a player is permitted to add a club (see Rule 4.1b(1)) or replace a damaged club (see Rule 4.1b(3)), club components brought from the clubhouse (such as the player's locker), the golf shop, or a manufacturer's truck, or other similar locations, are not considered to be "carried by anyone for the player during the round" and are allowed to be assembled by the player or anyone else."

 

To me it seems quite clearly written. What I don't know is what exactly happened in this case. :)

 

The moral of the story; Don’t try to learn the rules over in the Tour Forum. :-)

[Krt22]

2019 Rule: Under Rule 4.1: ➢ A player will be allowed to keep using and/or to repair any club damaged during the round, no matter what the damage and even if the player damaged it in anger.

 

The issue isnt repairing the club, the issue was it was "repaired" on the course. Really silly IMO. Had his agent taken the club and shaft to the bathroom and did the assembly, all good, right?

 

It never existed as a club on the course, so no repair.. It was broken pre round and apparently only the shaft was taken on course.

 

So he had 13 clubs and a "new" club was assembled on course, which is not permitted.

 

Which is lame given the new rule about fixing broken clubs. So you break a club head/shaft, if you have a spare in the locker room its OK to take it there and fix it, not OK to fix it on the course?

 

The rule that was used makes sense when repairing a club wasn't allowed. You can add an assembled club during the round, but if you assemble it on the course it's now a penalty. The rule is obviously antiquated and not protecting anyone or anything given the state of modern equipment.

You cannot replace it-you cannot reshaft it-nor put a new head on it. You can "repair" it. Meaning if it is bent you can straighten it.

 

I deleted my post because I misread one reply on the first page. The issue wasnt where it was assembled, but that the shaft was carried at some point...even though a shaft alone doesnt count as a club.

 

But where does it detail exactly what a "repair" entails? Is replacing a broken club with the same exact shaft/head any different than taking it apart and reusing the one of the original components? Does that protect the field in any way?

[deadsolid...shank]

It appears to be another rule where a lot of knowledgeable people (present company very much excluded!) can’t or don’t agree on what could have or should have been done. Is there really not a way to word these in a easier to read and understand fashion?

 

Don't mix opinions with actual rules. I don't know where these "you need to go OB to assemble the club" opinions are coming from.

 

Quote from the rule:

 

"When adding or replacing a club under (1) or (3), a player must not:

 

Build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round."

 

And a quote from an Interpretation:

 

"For example, if a player is permitted to add a club (see Rule 4.1b(1)) or replace a damaged club (see Rule 4.1b(3)), club components brought from the clubhouse (such as the player's locker), the golf shop, or a manufacturer's truck, or other similar locations, are not considered to be "carried by anyone for the player during the round" and are allowed to be assembled by the player or anyone else."

 

To me it seems quite clearly written. What I don't know is what exactly happened in this case. :)

 

Ok, I admit, when you see them side by side it’s a little clearer.

 

But they still seem almost contradictory to me. You can’t carry the parts with you and put the club together, but you can send someone to pick them up and then you can put them together? “Club parts guy, just a phone call away”.

 

I do understand the wording better now, thanks for that Hale. Now the rule itself doesn’t make much sense.

[deadsolid...shank]

Here’s our three step process:

 

1) be outraged

 

2) demand a change in the rules

 

3) find out exactly what happened

 

I haven’t heard a lot of outrage. I’ve heard several people saying they would like to know what exactly was asked and if HV was clear in telling the official what he wanted to do.

[deadsolid...shank]

 

If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?

 

 

No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.

 

The club wasn’t in his bag though, so would it be considered a repair?

 

Correct. It wasn't on course when he started the round. The shaft apparently was, so still not a club. I read the rule as if the shaft were taken off course and mated with a head while still off course, this "new" club could be added to the bag.

 

But what happened was it was paired with a head while on the course, so penalty.

 

Which brings us back full circle to, we really need to know how and what exactly HV said to the official in regards to what he was planning on doing.

 

I really believe, after thinking about it, that HV didn’t make it clear that someone was just bringing the head out to him on the course and they would attaché it there. If he had said that surely the official would have corrected him. I have to believe the official thought someone was bringing out a complete club to him.

 

Will be a new rule for the caddies (by the players, not a golf rule), no wrenches in the bag while on the course. Eliminate the possibility.

But it is okay to tighten the screw on the head of the club-just cannot change the position. You want the wrench with you.

 

Forgot about that. I don’t know why I even try to understand anymore, I’m either normally forgetting something, or just completely wrong.

 

And I used to think I had a basic grasp of the rules.

[rawdog]

If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?

 

No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.

 

The club wasn’t in his bag though, so would it be considered a repair?

 

Correct. It wasn't on course when he started the round. The shaft apparently was, so still not a club. I read the rule as if the shaft were taken off course and mated with a head while still off course, this "new" club could be added to the bag.

 

But what happened was it was paired with a head while on the course, so penalty.

 

No penalty. Please read the Interpretation 4.1b(4)/1. It does not matter where the club is assembled. What matters is where the components were before the assembly.

 

Yes, thank you. It's that it was carried on the course immediately prior to assembly.

[Mr. Bean]

But they still seem almost contradictory to me. You can’t carry the parts with you and put the club together, but you can send someone to pick them up and then you can put them together? “Club parts guy, just a phone call away”.

 

I do understand the wording better now, thanks for that Hale. Now the rule itself doesn’t make much sense.

 

As already explained this is to avoid the situation that a player has someone on the course carrying dozens of components for him to get a quick remedy. It is also good to remember that Rules are for everyone, not only for those who have a tour truck available.

 

The Rule in question makes a lot of sense, you just have to understand the principle behind it.

[Halebopp]

It appears to be another rule where a lot of knowledgeable people (present company very much excluded!) can’t or don’t agree on what could have or should have been done. Is there really not a way to word these in a easier to read and understand fashion?

 

Don't mix opinions with actual rules. I don't know where these "you need to go OB to assemble the club" opinions are coming from.

 

Quote from the rule:

 

"When adding or replacing a club under (1) or (3), a player must not:

 

Build a club from parts carried by anyone for the player during the round."

 

And a quote from an Interpretation:

 

"For example, if a player is permitted to add a club (see Rule 4.1b(1)) or replace a damaged club (see Rule 4.1b(3)), club components brought from the clubhouse (such as the player's locker), the golf shop, or a manufacturer's truck, or other similar locations, are not considered to be "carried by anyone for the player during the round" and are allowed to be assembled by the player or anyone else."

 

To me it seems quite clearly written. What I don't know is what exactly happened in this case. :)

 

Ok, I admit, when you see them side by side it’s a little clearer.

 

But they still seem almost contradictory to me. You can’t carry the parts with you and put the club together, but you can send someone to pick them up and then you can put them together? “Club parts guy, just a phone call away”.

 

I do understand the wording better now, thanks for that Hale. Now the rule itself doesn’t make much sense.

You can't unreasonably delay play to add a club. In other words, if the components were carried for you, you could assemble the club when you need it. If you send someone to get the parts from the clubhouse, it takes time and you need to continue playing without the club until it's brought to you assembled or in pieces.

 

The possible advantage is more limited.

[ThinkingPlus]

Based on all this conversation I think if I ever had a club break when in a competition (no matter when or where it happened) I would just play with 13 until the competition was over. There just isn't any logical way to unravel all the intracacies of who is carrying what, when, or where. I am not sure replacing the club the next day would be safe.

[Mr. Bean]

Based on all this conversation I think if I ever had a club break when in a competition (no matter when or where it happened) I would just play with 13 until the competition was over.

 

Well, you would have to, replacing a broken club is only allowed if an outside influence broke it...

 

EDIT: Sorry, if the competition lasts more than one day you may naturally replace a broken club for the next round.