Fitting/science vs experimenting/ playing

[tets]

Like many of you on here, I buy, sell and trade clubs all the time. Love trying new clubs. I have been anywhere from a plus 2 to a 3 handicap. The past few alone due to injuries , surgeries and winter I was able to play 7 weeks out of the last 30 months. During that those 7 weeks last summer I had approx. 12 sets of irons! This year I said I need to focus on 1 set and a driver. So I got fit. I wasn’t sold on the recommended shaft. Then out of curiosity I did 2 more fittings. All using Trackman and pro v 1s, 2 outside, one inside. All 3 came up with different irons and different shafts. I bought a set that was recommended by one of the fitters, took them to the course and played a round. Terrible results, not even close. Had similar results with a driver. I am losing faith in the science of fittings. I think the only true way is to get on the golf course and play. I put in 4 irons of a couple different sets and play. Same with the driver. Anyone have similar findings.

[Brizam]

For me a Trackman fitting is only good outside where I can see actually ball flight with turf interaction. I struggle hitting balls in the dark indoor hitting bays, I think it screws with my depth perception or something like that. I've had many a Trackman superstar drivers not translate to good playing drivers. Sometimes what the data says just doens't travel well to the golf course.

[wmblake2000]

To be honest, after a LOT of experimenting - pricey fittings, inexpensive fittings, self fitting using launch monitors, buying/trying/selling many sets of irons - I am still not sure how to go about it. There are just a lot of variables that all matter - lie, weight, sw, shaft profile, sole design, grip size... and mats are not the same as turf. So I am concluding the same as you. I think the best is something like here in LA - Roger Dunn 90 day exchange policy.

[morgan1819]

Getting fit is a good thing. Dialing things in on the course is great thing.

 

 

...

 

 

 

[brew4eagle]

Demoing on the golf course trumps fittings

[tets]

Amen

[bluedot]

> @tets said:

> Like many of you on here, I buy, sell and trade clubs all the time. Love trying new clubs. I have been anywhere from a plus 2 to a 3 handicap. The past few alone due to injuries , surgeries and winter I was able to play 7 weeks out of the last 30 months. During that those 7 weeks last summer I had approx. 12 sets of irons! This year I said I need to focus on 1 set and a driver. So I got fit. I wasn’t sold on the recommended shaft. Then out of curiosity I did 2 more fittings. All using Trackman and pro v 1s, 2 outside, one inside. All 3 came up with different irons and different shafts. I bought a set that was recommended by one of the fitters, took them to the course and played a round. Terrible results, not even close. Had similar results with a driver. I am losing faith in the science of fittings. I think the only true way is to get on the golf course and play. I put in 4 irons of a couple different sets and play. Same with the driver. Anyone have similar findings.

 

I'd be really curious to know who the three fitters were, but put that aside for a moment. You also don't mention whether or not you are able to practice much, but we'll put that aside as well.

1. You've had more than a dozen sets of irons in the last year.

2. You've played 7 weeks out of the last two and a half years.

3. It's spring, and you've played one round with yet another set of new clubs, with poor results.

 

I don't think you find ANY player on the PGA Tour for whom #1 and #2 above were true, but if there were, I think we could assume that #3 would follow more or less automatically. I'm not sure this is a fitting problem.

[Nessism]

> @brew4eagle said:

> Demoing on the golf course trumps fittings

 

And playing a set of clubs for a half dozen rounds trumps any fitting indoors or out.

 

I wonder sometimes why people put so much faith in someone else telling them what clubs to play? Guys say "go into the fitting with an open mind" and then they throw themselves at the mercy of a "fitter" that watches and charts them hit balls for 20 mins or so. People have good/bad swinging days and there are good fitters and bad. I'd much rather go into the club selection process with using my old clubs as a baseline and then making an incremental step in specs which will improve a targeted part of my game. Don't go off the farm with dramatically different specs than you are used to unless you are okay with failing. And avoid analysis paralysis.

[bladehunter]

> @Nessism said:

> > @brew4eagle said:

> > Demoing on the golf course trumps fittings

>

> And playing a set of clubs for a half dozen rounds trumps any fitting indoors or out.

>

> I wonder sometimes why people put so much faith in someone else telling them what clubs to play? Guys say "go into the fitting with an open mind" and then they throw themselves at the mercy of a "fitter" that watches and charts them hit balls for 20 mins or so. People have good/bad swinging days and there are good fitters and bad. I'd much rather go into the club selection process with using my old clubs as a baseline and then making an incremental step in specs which will improve a targeted part of my game. Don't go off the farm with dramatically different specs than you are used to unless you are okay with failing. And avoid analysis paralysis.

 

When you’re right. You’re right. And you’re right ! Lol

 

Don’t own a club that another guy told me would work. And I’ve been fit for everything multiple times. Problem is I will change my swing to accommodate a club inside 3-4 swings. But it rarely lasts. When you find what works. You stay.

[mogc60]

Regardless of the fitting or fitting suggestions you have to be comfortable with looking up after impact and seeing the ball in your pictures window. This cAn only be done outside and usually in the course is better. It’s good to know your specs and get fit as a baseline but they have to fit what you want

[Stuart_G]

> @tets said:

> I am losing faith in the science of fittings.

 

Fitting is a lot more of an art than a science. And there are plenty of bad artists out there calling themselves fitters that have no business doing so. That's the biggest problem with the state of the fitting "industry".

 

 

[Noke]

Actually PLAY golf? Who does that?!?

 

I just get fit at different places every week and buy all the gear they recommend. The clubs sit in my basement where they all make friends and I swing by for a conversation sometimes.

[fsutanker]

I have a full fitting scheduled for Saturday morning 5/4/2019. I’m actually pretty comfortable with my setup, but it was put together via eBay, BST and the rare new purchase. For the most part, I kept and adapted to whatever I bought, so I’m not in dire straights for new equipment. However, one of my playing partners recently got fit for driver and went from a fairway finding G400Max to a fairway finding Epic Flash with Oban Devotion with tighter dispersion and 15-20 yards in the fitting and on the course. He said the shaft picked up some yards in the G400 but it got even longer and tighter dispersion in the Epic Flash. His results translated to the course, so I’m a believer in the process. Humble Brag, we won Member Guest, so the extra $$ influx and his differences convinced me to get fit.

 

If there is interest in my current setup, fitting process, and outcome I will post here or create a new post.

For reference, I’m 6’1”, 205 lbs. 42 years old. 8.9 hdcp hit 8i ~155, driver 265ish? Occasionally pumping one 280+.

 

I’ll keep an eye on this post to see if there’s any interest in my “testimonial”. (I’ve been doing a lot of searching on fitting process and outcomes so figure I may add my info for the next person considering it)

[ColdOkieGolf]

12 sets of irons, 3 different fittings.. plays 7 weeks in a 2.5 year span. Something seems off there.

 

A fitting is only as good as your swing was on that given day. Finding clubs that work consistently takes more than a fitting. You have to understand your preferences and your tendencies and find clubs that match up with those.

 

 

[Pittknife]

> @Brizam said:

> For me a Trackman fitting is only good outside where I can see actually ball flight with turf interaction. I struggle hitting balls in the dark indoor hitting bays, I think it screws with my depth perception or something like that. I've had many a Trackman superstar drivers not translate to good playing drivers. Sometimes what the data says just doens't travel well to the golf course.

 

Those bay, lighting and mats do have an affect on your depth perception and swing. I have vision issues that require I wear contacts, the lighting in simulators along with being in a confined place throws off my swing like crazy.

 

Fittings can skew results if a player swings differently on a range vs course, i.e. legendary range rats. When you don't have consequences (like OB, hazard & score) to worry about you can swing harder looser vs when you actually play a course. It's best if you can try to replicate your playing swing and not just swing for the fences because you want to be fitted a certain way.

 

There are only a few number of quality fitters, they are usually on tour or very expensive centers. Golf Galaxy, Dick's, driving ranges & even OEM demo days aren't that good at fitting. They are guessing like you are, it takes a lot of time and continual testing before you can get confident you get the right equipment.

[Galanga]

I love the process of the fitting, the hitting balls, looking at the numbers, talking it over with the fitter, trying a bunch of stuff, etc. Good times. Feeds all my golf gear nerdiness. But, I 100% swing differently on the course than in a fitting. I am quicker tempo, have a more forceful transition and swing faster on the course. No matter how hard I try to swing "normal" in a fitting, I don't. Been fit a number of times and shafts suggested and installed always end up too soft for on the course. Only one fitting I have had nailed my wedges and iron shafts - Joe Kwok. He was magic with my irons and wedges. (The WITB in my signature is not the Kwok'd bag - a lot of injuries and age has caused me to change significantly and my WITB is self fit and works pretty well).

[wmblake2000]

> @Galanga said:

> I love the process of the fitting, the hitting balls, looking at the numbers, talking it over with the fitter, trying a bunch of stuff, etc. Good times. Feeds all my golf gear nerdiness. But, I 100% swing differently on the course than in a fitting. I am quicker tempo, have a more forceful transition and swing faster on the course. No matter how hard I try to swing "normal" in a fitting, I don't. Been fit a number of times and shafts suggested and installed always end up too soft for on the course. Only one fitting I have had nailed my wedges and iron shafts - Joe Kwok. He was magic with my irons and wedges. (The WITB in my signature is not the Kwok'd bag - a lot of injuries and age has caused me to change significantly and my WITB is self fit and works pretty well).

 

So that backs up Stuart’s comment. The very best are really good.

 

[BearQ]

For me playing and knowing my game all day. But I live this ***

[edgerat]

I've done SEVERAL fittings. Hitting and hitting and hitting and then you go out with that recipe and can't hit anything. When I watch a video like Crossfield did with Brett Porath at Titleist, it makes me want to just fly down there and get it done, correctly, if there is such a thing. I did a fitting at a Club Champion and the guy brought out 30 SHAFTS for an iron fitting, 30. I would make a few swings (good and bad) and then he would go, "oop, obviously not that one" and put a new one in and on we went. It was a real s show, not just because of him but, just in general. I've played S300s for most of my life and I have played around with quite a few different shafts, for me, at the end of the day, it is the guy holding the club. I have seen my spin numbers go up and down based on how I deliver the club. I don't buy it any more. Maybe I am just lucky and the S300 "fits me" but, I have played around with enough other shafts that I don't see that fitting does much of anything except for fatten the wallet of some fitters, and make people who don't want to work on their game feel better. Just look at the number of PGA guys that play an X100 shaft, people with all kinds of different swing tempos, speeds, deliveries. I am not saying science isn't real, I do love watching those numbers on Trackman and GC Quad. I am just done with the whole "fitting" concept, outside of being able to see how the face of a club feels. :wink:

[Exactice808]

OOOHHHH Tough one.......

1) every fitter has their own methods and bias to beliefs.... so thats issue 1

2) Every machine may have its bias and setup, Trackman by product is unbiased.....but the fitter may have a preference, Mizuno Swing Analyzer recommends X clubs/shafts. the Online analyzers recommends X clubs/shafts.

I made this post and I usually copy and paste. This is how I approach fittings now and how I work with my current shop when they re-fit or update my clubs.

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/18368474#Comment_18368474

 

This goes with All clubs, Irons and Wedges. I go in with an intent.

1) is it to fix gaps in distance

2) is it to find out why I spray

3) is it to find out if I lost my timing

 

but it always goes back to X club that I use, Finding out if I am replicating a swing speed and produce similar ball flight characteristics. IF I am NOT..I zero why.

 

Am I deloft, or flipping, has my swing speed slowed down. am I missing a target window of spin or launch. They then tune the shafts and lofts to meet those numbers if my swing is sound. If my swing is broken, we dont change clubs, we try to address the swing to replicate some type of consistency first.

 

 

[DaveGoodrich]

I love "self-fitting" by experimentation in actual play (good thing I don't play golf for a living). This is only possible because I buy used clubs, hunt for bargains on shafts, and do my own clubmaking. I seriously doubt any fitting I could afford would help me shoot lower scores.

[ALIF]

I had a Ping outdoor driver fitting on trackman this week. For years I have been playing an RBZ Tour driver 9.0 degrees turned up to 10.5°. I shortened the shaft a bit and added hot melt to the head. I was very precise with my adjustments on this club. I tried five different shafts in the club. All this trial and error lead me to a driver that I have used for several years that seems to do very well for me. When I hit the new Ping 410 driver this week I did like it but it didn’t seem to hit the ball any better than my current driver. It seemed forgiving but honestly I couldn’t tell if it was any more forgiving than my current driver as the difference wasn’t significantly noticeable for me. I’m going to do that mail order golf club rental deal and rent one for a couple of weeks and take it out on the course side-by-side my current driver and give it a thorough evaluation. If it is better, I will buy it.

[bigred90gt]

> @DaveGoodrich said:

> I love "self-fitting" by experimentation in actual play (good thing I don't play golf for a living). This is only possible because I buy used clubs, hunt for bargains on shafts, and do my own clubmaking. I seriously doubt any fitting I could afford would help me shoot lower scores.

 

This is me. I buy clubs and shafts used, swat stuff around, build my own clubs and try them on the course. If they don’t work, to the garage they go. I’ve got a good idea of what typically works for me, and I’m just not sure that paying someone to use their technology will help me shoot lower scores. My scores are bad because my swing is garbage right now, lol. No amount of club fitting will fix that.

 

[ChipNRun]

> @tets said:

> ... During that those 7 weeks last summer **I had approx. 12 sets of irons!** This year I said I need to focus on 1 set and a driver. So I got fit. I wasn’t sold on the recommended shaft. Then out of curiosity I did 2 more fittings. All using Trackman and pro v 1s, 2 outside, one inside. All 3 came up with different irons and different shafts. I bought a set that was recommended by one of the fitters, took them to the course and **played a round.** Terrible results, not even close. ...

 

It would be fun to try all those iron sets, but most of us have neither the time nor money to go this route.

 

Some variables influence how much one gets out of a fitting...

* How skilled is the fitter, how well does fitter communicate, and how close is the launch monitor to calibration.

* **"I had approx. 12 sets of irons!"** in seven weeks. Any chance you were suffering from information overload, having trouble keeping the different irons sets straight in your head?

 

I would suggest that even a scratch golfer such as yourself needs a _learning curve_ period of longer than **one round** to really get the feel of new irons (or drivers).

[driveandputtmachine]

I discovered that my iron shafts are weird lengths a long time ago. Maxfli VHL irons, the hosels are varying lengths. Short in the long irons and long in the short irons. When I had them re-shafted the "builder" had pre-cut everything and just installed them, I ended up with lead tape on the long irons and some on the mid to get them to fell "right". Flash forward and in a fitting with Dana and he went through my old clubs and after dialing in my irons he showed me the issue with my old irons. We talked about it and I ended up a 7 iron a little longer than standard, 1/4 up and down per club from there. We ended up building my new irons the same way and he added some weight to get them to feel the way I liked. Flash forward and Dana sold, so I do most everything myself. However I still tend to build my irons based on 7 iron being a little long and doing 1/4 increments up and down from there.

 

So I had a trial that a good fitter recognized and then modified a standard build to what he knew and then saw after the build would work for me. Drivers and everything else is trial and error for me. The super low spin driver heads miss too big for me, so I am playing a G400 max and while not as long as the F9 or Epic flash, the spin numbers sit where I need them to be successful.

[joey3108]

A good fitting is finding the balance of the art and science of it. Maximized to the right skill level to make the players less on mishits. This game is all about missed less than others WIN!

 

No science can explain when fitting a low ball hitter with all the low kick point shafts, all flexes and explain why their swing mechanics should be ..... And they still can't do it until i gave him a certain shaft profile and tricked him on the swing though. Bare in mind, I've done this to a better than average players to a pro level. They've even surprised on how I've figured that out. That's ART!

 

But, we as a good fitter should stay within the guide lines to maximize their potential on feel, distance and accuracy. That's the SCIENCE.

 

Last is the players itself. What is their expectation approaching this game and trusting the equipments? No one will have fun and play well if they always blame the equipments. Equipments is the easy part to fit you, but they still have to remember who swing the club? Remember we are not a robot! Even a robot can't do it consistent enough due to weather factors. And talking/discussing the science of it on daily or constant manner will build them to be a way too technical players. Is that what they really want?

 

My 2 cents!

[Stuart_G]

> @joey3108 said:

> No science can explain ...

 

It's not that science can't explain it - the problem is that the science can't be used to effectively predict what will happen before the player tries something.

 

 

[Howard_Jones]

Fitting is both science and art combined.

The science part is simple, the art is not.

The science used in fitting is only guidelines and about what we can expect from a certain change, but there is no rules without exceptions, and in equipment fitting the exceptions is almost just as many as there is guidelines because we always have factor X involved, the human factor, and how we as humans respond to the changes done.

a good club fitter focus on the player; and use his tools as assistants, those not so good fit his launchmonitor and overlook the player.

 

Thats my 2 cents about it

[Noodler]

Since this thread has been revived...

 

When was the last time anyone actually experienced a fitter that truly used science in their fitting? Sure there's "science" inside the launch monitor, but is the fitter using science in the fitting method?

 

The goal of every golfer should be to achieve accurate hits, most consistently, at the highest swing speed possible. So what is the fitter doing to test and then improve your accuracy and consistency while optimizing your swing speed? If your experience has been like mine, then the answer is nothing. They typically change too many variables at once and use a trial-and-error process of elimination to try to get to something that "seems" to fit to you. There is no true scientific method employed by fitters to change the key club variables and then determine how those variables are affecting the accuracy, consistency, and speed of your swing.

 

Fitters should be changing a single variable while holding the others constant and then testing and recording the results (methodically/scientifically). Are they truly helping you determine the correct overall weight, distribution of that weight, club length, grip thickness, etc. And this isn't just about measuring you and then looking at a chart or table and saying this is what you should be using, but rather actually testing the real world impact of changes to these club characteristics on your swing.

 

Until the practice of club fitting matures and develops the understanding of what it really takes to find the optimal setup for a golfer, understand what you're actually getting for your money. Even the highest level, most acclaimed fitters available are not truly using a scientific approach to determine what is optimal for your game.

[sshadow2]

> @Noodler said:

> Since this thread has been revived...

>

> When was the last time anyone actually experienced a fitter that truly used science in their fitting? Sure there's "science" inside the launch monitor, but is the fitter using science in the fitting method?

>

> The goal of every golfer should be to achieve accurate hits, most consistently, at the highest swing speed possible. So what is the fitter doing to test and then improve your accuracy and consistency while optimizing your swing speed? If your experience has been like mine, then the answer is nothing. They typically change too many variables at once and use a trial-and-error process of elimination to try to get to something that "seems" to fit to you. There is no true scientific method employed by fitters to change the key club variables and then determine how those variables are affecting the accuracy, consistency, and speed of your swing.

>

> Fitters should be changing a single variable while holding the others constant and then testing and recording the results (methodically/scientifically). Are they truly helping you determine the correct overall weight, distribution of that weight, club length, grip thickness, etc. And this isn't just about measuring you and then looking at a chart or table and saying this is what you should be using, but rather actually testing the real world impact of changes to these club characteristics on your swing.

>

> Until the practice of club fitting matures and develops the understanding of what it really takes to find the optimal setup for a golfer, understand what you're actually getting for your money. Even the highest level, most acclaimed fitters available are not truly using a scientific approach to determine what is optimal for your game.

 

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I disagree regarding the maturity of the practice of club fitting. I have a hard time believing tour pros don't get the most completely thorough fittings around. Heck, they get clubs made specifically for them! I think its very mature, I just don't think there is a standard that everyone follows, especially at the consumer level. Plus to keep the door revolving, there is a lot of cutting corners and a typical fitting for non pro is no where near as extensive as it should be. I can tell that if I put too many bad swings into my fittings, and time is almost up, the more "ball park" my recommendation is going to be. Also, another issue -- many here at Wrx say that indoor fitting are less than ideal, especially on a Trackman and on a mat, but I'm hard pressed to find anything else in my area.

 

I've been experimenting on my own for over a decade, I got tired of losing money and not having fun with all the random variables used sets and clubs come with. So I went the science route this year. In spite of my before-mentioned limitations on fitting environments, what I have now is the best for me that I've ever had. I'm hitting well and I'm having fun playing golf.

 

Ultimately though, I think it all depends on where you are in life. For me, I'm for the science right now.