My putting journey

[MountainGoat]

> @bladehunter said:

>Why would you not change to the most upright lie angle you could to limit the need for extra face rotation ? Less manipulation must mean more consistency , no?

Yes, less manipulation in theory leads to more consistency. No, a more upright lie angle doesn't limit face rotation. Face rotation is dictated by your setup angles and manner of striking the ball. Lie angle just affects whether the club soles flat or not.

 

[bladehunter]

> @MountainGoat said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> >Why would you not change to the most upright lie angle you could to limit the need for extra face rotation ? Less manipulation must mean more consistency , no?

> Yes, less manipulation in theory leads to more consistency. No, a more upright lie angle doesn't limit face rotation. Face rotation is dictated by your setup angles and manner of striking the ball. Lie angle just affects whether the club soles flat or not.

>

 

I’m not saying it’s an absolute. But was going off of the USga rule that limits lie angle to less than 80 degrees. I assume that is because at closer go 90 degrees it becomes an apparent advantage to use? As in it will swing with no arc.

[baudi]

Been working with hole more putts for over 3 months now and my conclusions are mixed.

It is a great tool no doubt but I tend to look for isolated variables and try to find out how they'd influence a stroke pattern. It is easier to fit a driver imho.

The most important variable (face angle) is hardly affected no matter which part of the putter I adjust.

I fit putters first to length / lie / grip for set up ( with mirrors/lasers ) then I look for stroke balance and proper roll.

I will extend my package of hmp data to get a grip on face to path rotation which may provide more dynamic view on the data.

Good roll and direction of the ball are the variables for the most conclusive outcome. I check/ validate these results in a few ways.

Sometimes the results seem to conflict with HMP.

 

Nice tests for a good strike a rolling a copper coin at good speed and playing 'pool' golf.

I am quite good with these skills but holing putts is a different level.

 

 

 

 

[MountainGoat]

I'm beginning to transfer my new putting style from my indoor setup to an outdoor green, and I've discovered a fascinating issue -- I have a lousy sense of direction.

 

I put a notched putting mirror on the green, point it to a particular spot, and align the line on the ball along the a line on the mirror and the target line. When I approach the ball and take my stance, I could swear that the whole setup is pointed in the wrong direction. My sense on a 20 foot putt is that it's pointed at least a foot to the right of its actual line, maybe more.

 

The mirror assures that my eyes are directly over the target line (albeit slightly behind the ball) and both eyes are on the line. Yet, the alignment still feels off. It's not so much of a problem on left-breaking putts, but it's a killer with right breaking putts...particularly those that go downhill.

 

The mirror has a number of holes in it which allow for the placement of a couple of tees that create a tight gate for the putter to travel thru. With straight and left-breaking putts, I'm almost flawless in successfully navigating the gate. But, with right-breaking putts, I frequently hit the gate posts, because I have a tendency to cut across the ball in an attempt to hit it farther to the left than the target line requires.

 

I'm not quite sure how to address this issue other than to focus more on putting down the line on the ball (which is oriented on the target line) than to my inner sense of the target, itself. It takes a lot of discipline to do that. It's also a far more mechanical approach to putting than I've ever employed before.

 

 

[SNIPERBBB]

You don't happen to be opposite eye dominant?

[MountainGoat]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> You don't happen to be opposite eye dominant?

 

Interesting conjecture, but I'm almost completely balanced in that regard.

[bladehunter]

I’m left eye dominant as a righty. It sucks. Try moving the ball way ahead in Stance and get your head down over the line and behind the ball. This will probably help you see the line. Your probably more left eye dominant than you think. And the left eye isn’t looking down the line.

[baudi]

There is a remark of Scotty Cameron somewhere that after research he found out all pro's had their eyes about 1 inch inside the ball; not Director over the ball. Don t know if this will helpmyou situation but it is worth to give it a try

[MountainGoat]

> @baudi said:

> There is a remark of Scotty Cameron somewhere that after research he found out all pro's had their eyes about 1 inch inside the ball; not Director over the ball. Don t know if this will helpmyou situation but it is worth to give it a try

 

Yeah, that's about where I am. I've got some thoughts on this. I'll try to keep them short.

 

There are two different kinds of training devices for putting, those that entrain the stroke and those that entrain the result of the stroke. The former consist of any of a variety of guides or templates the control how the putter moves back and forth thru the ball. The one I pictured in earlier posts is an example. Electronic devices the monitor the movement of the putter, like the Hole More Putts device would be in this category. The latter type of training device consists of tracks along which the student hits the ball. Putting champion, Juan73 (posts #51), showed several he uses. These can be as simple as a metal ruler or more exotic with a variety of levels and mirrors, as well.

 

I've tried both of these types of devices. When I use a guide to control or monitor the putter movement, I create a mechanically optimized stroke. However, it's one that doesn't work very well on the course. The principle problem is that I have a faulty sense of direction (noted above) and a dulled sense of distance. Last night, I comically missed a 9-foot putt by 6 feet.

 

When I use a track, I have a much better sense of both distance and direction, but my setup differs from the ideal. I'll often look down into the mirror to see that my shoulders are open, for example. Instructors are quick to point out such mistakes.

 

I'm not 100% sure which training method I should follow. My current thought is to make more use of tracks than I have, but to keep an eye out for faulty mechanics that might creep into my motion. I might feel different about all this tomorrow.

 

[Ty_Webb]

> @Juan73 said:

> As I read through this thread, I wanted to make a few comments.

>

> First, SBST is impossible unless you manipulate the putter, since even if you bent over at 90 degrees, the lie angle on a putter will be only 70-73 degrees, so it can not go back straight without some major manipulation.

>

> Second, the average PGA Touring Pro spends 7.5 to 10 hours a week practicing putting. So if you want to get good you have to invest the time. 10,000 strokes, who knows, but it will take hundreds, maybe thousands to develop a putting stroke that delivers the ball down the line you are aiming.

>

> Third, to become a good putter, you need four things at least... in no particular order:

> 1. First, be able to consistently deliver the ball down the line you want it to roll. If your clubface is open/closed even 1 degree at impact it is mathematically impossible to make a straight 10 foot putt.

> 2. Second, you have to be able to read greens so you can establish a point at which to aim the ball.

> 3. Third, you need to develop excellent distance control, so you enable the ball to roll down the line you have chosen and go in the hole. To little energy and you are short, too much and you are long.

> 4. Fourth, a putter that fits YOU (taking into consideration to physique, and your stroke).

>

> While you have an interesting putter station. I have attached a picture of mine. My goal with each of these is to putt to ball from one end to offer the other without the ball falling off the sides. And it is a graduated training station, you earn the right to move from left to right. You earn the move by making 10 in a row at least ... The Yellow one on the left is 2 inches wide, then next one is 1 inch wide, and next which is a Harold Swash Putting Rail is 1/2 inch wide and the one on the far right is from Cameron McCormick (his students including Jordan Speith) and is 5/16th wide. I can absolutely assure you that if you work through these rulers/rails, .... and our successful you will have NO worries about your ability to start the ball on line. One caveat, one of the main reasons a person does not start the ball on the line they have chosen, is there last look is at the hole, ... rather than their aim point. When you do this, your mind changes the aim point and you not start hitting the ball towards the hole, so you end up below the hole!!!

>

> Some of you may ask, who is this guy. I am the author of a book on putting and the 2011 World Golf Hall of Fame Putting Tournament Champion.

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

Hi @Juan73,

 

Do you happen to know where one might find either the Harold Swash or the Cameron McCormick ones? I have a 36" yardstick that is 1.25" wide, which will have to sub in for the first two. There is a Visio T-Line out there, but I can't find out the dimensions of the narrow bit ([https://theartandscienceofputting.com/products/visio-t-line](https://theartandscienceofputting.com/products/visio-t-line "https://theartandscienceofputting.com/products/visio-t-line")). I think it's about 0.5" wide, but it's only 19-20" long, so that's not a lot more challenging than the yardstick I have. I do quite like the idea of it confirming whether straight looks straight or not.

 

I recently had a putting lesson and one of the things my coach suggested is to address the ball slightly inside, so when the putter comes through off the ground it's in the right place. I used to cut across it about 3-4 degrees out to in, which would put a wobble on the line. Now the line is going end over end, so it appears to have fixed my path, but I need to reassess where "square" is for the face to get it starting on the right line now. Hence looking for these things, but I can't find anything at all via Google.

[Ty_Webb]

> @MountainGoat said:

> > @baudi said:

> > There is a remark of Scotty Cameron somewhere that after research he found out all pro's had their eyes about 1 inch inside the ball; not Director over the ball. Don t know if this will helpmyou situation but it is worth to give it a try

>

> Yeah, that's about where I am. I've got some thoughts on this. I'll try to keep them short.

>

> There are two different kinds of training devices for putting, those that entrain the stroke and those that entrain the result of the stroke. The former consist of any of a variety of guides or templates the control how the putter moves back and forth thru the ball. The one I pictured in earlier posts is an example. Electronic devices the monitor the movement of the putter, like the Hole More Putts device would be in this category. The latter type of training device consists of tracks along which the student hits the ball. Putting champion, Juan73 (posts #51), showed several he uses. These can be as simple as a metal ruler or more exotic with a variety of levels and mirrors, as well.

>

> I've tried both of these types of devices. When I use a guide to control or monitor the putter movement, I create a mechanically optimized stroke. However, it's one that doesn't work very well on the course. The principle problem is that I have a faulty sense of direction (noted above) and a dulled sense of distance. Last night, I comically missed a 9-foot putt by 6 feet.

>

> When I use a track, I have a much better sense of both distance and direction, but my setup differs from the ideal. I'll often look down into the mirror to see that my shoulders are open, for example. Instructors are quick to point out such mistakes.

>

> I'm not 100% sure which training method I should follow. My current thought is to make more use of tracks than I have, but to keep an eye out for faulty mechanics that might creep into my motion. I might feel different about all this tomorrow.

>

 

I'm always encouraged when I read posts like this. Like I'm not the only crazy one.

 

I would think that your best approach would be to use the aids that create your mechanically optimized stroke a lot until that optimized stroke is natural. Then switch to the other type to get that optimized stroke pointing in the right direction. If you have a tournament tomorrow, then go with the second type.

[MountainGoat]

> @Ty_Webb said:

> Hi @Juan73,

>

> Do you happen to know where one might find either the Harold Swash or the Cameron McCormick ones? I have a 36" yardstick that is 1.25" wide, which will have to sub in for the first two. There is a Visio T-Line out there, but I can't find out the dimensions of the narrow bit ([https://theartandscienceofputting.com/products/visio-t-line](https://theartandscienceofputting.com/products/visio-t-line "https://theartandscienceofputting.com/products/visio-t-line")). I think it's about 0.5" wide, but it's only 19-20" long, so that's not a lot more challenging than the yardstick I have. I do quite like the idea of it confirming whether straight looks straight or not.

>

> I recently had a putting lesson and one of the things my coach suggested is to address the ball slightly inside, so when the putter comes through off the ground it's in the right place. I used to cut across it about 3-4 degrees out to in, which would put a wobble on the line. Now the line is going end over end, so it appears to have fixed my path, but I need to reassess where "square" is for the face to get it starting on the right line now. Hence looking for these things, but I can't find anything at all via Google.

 

I'm not Juan73, but I'll take a stab at an answer. The Harold Swash rail appears to be UK in origin and is unavailable anywhere in the US. I can't find the Cameron McCormick one, either.

 

The putting guru at my club recommends and uses The Putting Stick, Original Version, which is available at Walmart:

 

 

The eye alignment mirror is the critical component and distinguishes it from other models.

[Juan73]

Confirming what MountainGoat said, VERY hard to find the Harold Swash Putting Rail. And the item from Cameron McCormick was a limited edition he offered, not sure when he will have any more in stock.

 

The basic idea is to find a more challenging width... from wide to narrow. I have seen the Putting Stick, ... though before I purchase it I would want to know, how much more narrow it is than a 3 foot metal ruler, that I purchased from Home Depot for less than $5. My search regarding the Putting Stick is that it cost $70, and is 1 inch wide, and 46 inches long. While I like the idea, I am sticking with my 1 inch wide, 36 inch long metal ruler for $5. If someone has more detail about the width where the ball rolls I would appreciate it.

[Ty_Webb]

> @Juan73 said:

> Confirming what MountainGoat said, VERY hard to find the Harold Swash Putting Rail. And the item from Cameron McCormick was a limited edition he offered, not sure when he will have any more in stock.

>

> The basic idea is to find a more challenging width... from wide to narrow. I have seen the Putting Stick, ... though before I purchase it I would want to know, how much more narrow it is than a 3 foot metal ruler, that I purchased from Home Depot for less than $5. My search regarding the Putting Stick is that it cost $70, and is 1 inch wide, and 46 inches long. While I like the idea, I am sticking with my 1 inch wide, 36 inch long metal ruler for $5. If someone has more detail about the width where the ball rolls I would appreciate it.

 

Thanks Juan. Out of curiosity, how hard do you hit the ball down the rail? Is the intent that it goes slowly or quickly? I find if you hit it slowly it starts to wobble, but hitting it hard I think masks flaws (I rarely push or pull long putts - misread them from time to time and I get the pace wrong a lot, but that's a task for a different day)

[MountainGoat]

> @Juan73 said:

>I have seen the Putting Stick, ... though before I purchase it I would want to know, how much more narrow it is than a 3 foot metal ruler, that I purchased from Home Depot for less than $5. My search regarding the Putting Stick is that it cost $70, and is 1 inch wide, and 46 inches long. While I like the idea, I am sticking with my 1 inch wide, 36 inch long metal ruler for $5. If someone has more detail about the width where the ball rolls I would appreciate it.

 

I'm told by someone who has one that the Putting Stick is 1" wide. This single advantage over a ruler is the presence of a mirror for eye alignment.

[Juan73]

@Ty_Webb wrote:

 

Thanks Juan. Out of curiosity, how hard do you hit the ball down the rail? Is the intent that it goes slowly or quickly? I find if you hit it slowly it starts to wobble, but hitting it hard I think masks flaws (I rarely push or pull long putts - misread them from time to time and I get the pace wrong a lot, but that's a task for a different day)

 

I try to hit it so it rolls out about 2 feet beyond the end of the ruler. You are absolutely correct, if you hit it too hard, you can mask a flaw since it will be off the end of the ruler before it falls off the side. While it might wobble when you hit it slower, it then becomes another challenge... hitting it soft enough so that it barely makes it off the end of the ruler.