Funny story re : the 2019 drop rule.

[TheCityGame]

We have a par 5 where the right side of the fairway/rough/cart path is hidden from the tee by a mound.

 

So, I hit a ball down the right side the other day and looked for it for 3 minutes in my landing area (about 250 out). So, I told the guys I'm playing with, "I'm going to do a 2019 drop, but it's provisional in case I find the original further up." (side story : they didn't hear me declare provisional; that's immaterial, but good to keep in mind when playing.).

 

So, I play my 4th shot with the drop.

 

I find my original ball on the cart path 100 yards up, just off the cart path at the 150 yard marker.

 

So, I play the original ball onto the green and 3-putt for par.

 

But, then I started thinking, "I wonder if that's legal".

 

Narrator : "It was NOT legal."

 

Key point I was not aware of : the 2019 rule specifically says that new ball is in play regardless even if you find the original ball within the 3 minutes.

 

In one sense, it seems like it should be like a provisional. . .if I played a provisional and it came to rest 250 out, I could play my 4th shot, and if I found my ball further up, no problem.

 

But, I can also see how putting that ball into play is kind of like declaring the original lost. Normally you're looking in an area where you expect the ball to be.

 

 

Here's the part that I don't like : under normal provisional rules, if you are searching for your ball, you can go back, re-hit, and play your provisional until you get to your new ball as long as it is found within 3 minutes (interpretation 18.3a/2).

 

But, under the new drop, you're not allowed that option. I'm not entirely sure why. Maybe because you don't need to return to the previous spot, so it's like you have "more time" than you do _vis-à-vis_ the standard provisional rule.

 

Anyway, that was the first time THAT came up this year. Thought it was kind of unique, possibly of interest.

 

 

 

 

 

[davep043]

> @TheCityGame said:

 

> Here's the part that I don't like : under normal provisional rules, if you are searching for your ball, you can go back, re-hit, and play your provisional until you get to your new ball as long as it is found within 3 minutes (interpretation 18.3a/2).

>

> But, under the new drop, you're not allowed that option. I'm not entirely sure why. **Maybe because you don't need to return to the previous spot,** so it's like you have "more time" than you do _vis-à-vis_ the standard provisional rule.

>

> Anyway, that was the first time THAT came up this year. Thought it was kind of unique, possibly of interest.

>

 

I'd say the bold part above is one reason the ball substituted under E-55 is automatically in play. You're there, you have the opportunity to look, you've made a decision, and you're required to stick with that decision. By using the local rule, you have eliminated the "dangers" involved in playing a provisional, so you don't deserve the same potential benefit (finding and playing your original).

 

What I read in your original situation is that you had already expended your search time before you substituted the ball under E-5, yet wanted to be able to play your original even though the 3 minutes was way past. Obviously that's a problem for TWO reasons, first, the E-5 ball is automatically in play (I can understand your confusion) and the time was way past due (no excuse on that one).

 

[jlbos83]

When you take the drop you can't call it a provisional. That would mean that you basically get to choose where your provisional ends up. Once you take that drop it is like hitting a ball after the original is lost, no go backs.

 

I'm not a huge fan of the rule, but I will use it. I often hit a provisional, and if I can't find the original or the provisional, I'll take the drop for 5. By then the score is going to almost certainly be over ESC, anyway. So I just want the hole over!

[farmer]

OT, a little, but from what I've seen, for club golfers, that 3 minute rule is the most widely ignored rule of all.

[raynorfan1]

> @farmer said:

> OT, a little, but from what I've seen, for club golfers, that 3 minute rule is the most widely ignored rule of all.

 

Which is a shame, because searching for lost balls is one of the biggest slow play culprits.

[farmer]

Raynor, I agree, but "Dammit, that was a new ball!". I see it nearly every time I play.

[SNIPERBBB]

Problem is your trying to conflate a provisional ball with something that is a relief option. It's always been that if you took a drop that wasn't a provisional, that ball is now in play.

[Sawgrass]

Let’s acknowledge that with a local rule in place, you can take a penalty area drop and legally call the next shot a provisional.

[Shilgy]

You could not play your original from the op even if you had played a legit provisional.

18.3c(2)/1 tells us that the once the "estimated)" location of your original is passed with the provisional the original is dead.

[Sawgrass]

> @Shilgy said:

> You could not play your original from the op even if you had played a legit provisional.

> 18.3c(2)/1 tells us that the once the "estimated)" location of your original is passed with the provisional the original is dead.

 

“Passing” the estimated location is irrelevant. Striking the provisional again from past the estimated location of the original is relevant.

[Shilgy]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > You could not play your original from the op even if you had played a legit provisional.

> > 18.3c(2)/1 tells us that the once the "estimated)" location of your original is passed with the provisional the original is dead.

>

> “Passing” the estimated location is irrelevant. Striking the provisional again from past the estimated location of the original is relevant.

 

Passing is relevant because you can no longer strike the original. I know we want to be precise but is that not two ways of saying the same thing ?

[Sawgrass]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > You could not play your original from the op even if you had played a legit provisional.

> > > 18.3c(2)/1 tells us that the once the "estimated)" location of your original is passed with the provisional the original is dead.

> >

> > “Passing” the estimated location is irrelevant. Striking the provisional again from past the estimated location of the original is relevant.

>

> Passing is relevant because you can no longer strike the original. I know we want to be precise but is that not two ways of saying the same thing ?

 

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you, but let me say this to smoke it out: I hit a drive approximately 250 into deep grass. I declare a provisional, and hit it 150. I arrive at the provisional and hit that 200 more yards (total 350). My provisional remains a provisional, and if I find my original in time when I get there I must abandon the provisional up ahead and the original is the only ball in play.

 

So my hitting my provisional “past” my original ball’s assumed position had no impact.

[Shilgy]

I see what you mean now. I think. My intent was correct.....I was paraphrasing the rule but meant once the player is past the site the original is believed to be the provisional is the ball in play.

In your example, if I read it correctly, you are correct but if you found it within the three minutes at say 300 off the tee it is still “lost” and the provisional is the ball in play.

[Sawgrass]

> @Shilgy said:

>

> In your example, if I read it correctly, you are correct but if you found it within the three minutes at say 300 off the tee it is still “lost” and the provisional is the ball in play.

 

Not so: The provisional does not become the only ball in play until either the three minute search time expires, or you hit it again from a point closer to the hole than the original is believed to be. In my example, the provisional was not hit from closer to the hole than the 250 the original was thought to be, so finding the original in time, wherever it is found, causes it to be the sole ball in play.

[Shilgy]

Please read the Interpretation under the second bullet point for 18.3C(2)/1.

[Shilgy]

Sawgrass, I think we are both saying the same thing. Or I read the op incorrectly. In the op he used the Model local rule so hit from the estimated location. Would that be considered past the estimated spot?

Yes the player needs to strike the provisional ball from further along the hole than the estimated location of the originality render the original ball finished. If the provisional is equidistant to the estimated spot and you you play a shot with the provisional from there the....what? Is that not considered past? I guess what I am asking is how precise is “past the estimated location”?

 

With the rule now at three minutes it is unlikely you would find the original much further up within the time limit.

 

 

[Halebopp]

> @Shilgy said:

> If the provisional is equidistant to the estimated spot and you you play a shot with the provisional from there the....what? Is that not considered past? I guess what I am asking is how precise is “past the estimated location”?

>

> With the rule now at three minutes it is unlikely you would find the original much further up within the time limit.

>

>

 

No, it is equidistant from the hole. Also, where you actually find your original ball is completely irrelevant, what matters is where you estimated it to be.

 

> When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play.

>

> * When Provisional Ball Is Played from Spot Nearer Hole Than Where Original Ball Is Estimated to Be.

[antip]

> @Sawgrass said:

> Let’s acknowledge that with a local rule in place, you can take a penalty area drop and legally call the next shot a provisional.

 

Saw, I'm not following what you are saying here. Are you referring to MLR B-3?

 

Edit: and a general question for anyone that can answer. The website operation seems to have changed again in that when I pull up the saved forum introductory page all individual subject threads are bolded regardless of whether I was in the thread previously and no new posts have been added. That is, we seem to have lost the functionality of being able to see quickly on the front page whether there are new posts in a thread. So it seems you have to open individual threads repeatedly to see if the red boxed NEW is near the post number - or is there some other way to get out of all this extra thread opening??? Unless there is another way to get this information, this seems to be a significant backward step in site functionality.

[Newby]

> @antip said:

 

>

> Edit: and a general question for anyone that can answer. The website operation seems to have changed again in that when I pull up the saved forum introductory page all individual subject threads are bolded regardless of whether I was in the thread previously and no new posts have been added. That is, we seem to have lost the functionality of being able to see quickly on the front page whether there are new posts in a thread. So it seems you have to open individual threads repeatedly to see if the red boxed NEW is near the post number - or is there some other way to get out of all this extra thread opening??? Unless there is another way to get this information, this seems to be a significant backward step in site functionality.

Although all thread titles are 'bolded', doesn't the star or dot to the left give you what you require? It goes from bold black to light grey after you read it (the last post?). The star indicated you have a post there. The dot shows you haben't.

 

You can 'unbold' the dots and stars without reading the threads by clicking 'Marked All Viewed' in your own icon (top right). This will turn them grey when you next return to the forum.

 

I don't know what MARK READ on the front page does.

[Sawgrass]

> @antip said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > Let’s acknowledge that with a local rule in place, you can take a penalty area drop and legally call the next shot a provisional.

>

> Saw, I'm not following what you are saying here. Are you referring to MLR B-3?

>

>

Yes, my post #8 was addressing/refuting the "always" in post #7.

[Sawgrass]

. . . and it was not meant to address the OP's situation.

[Superbrit]

I'm still trying to figure out the "funny" part of all this?

[TheCityGame]

> @Superbrit said:

> I'm still trying to figure out the "funny" part of all this?

 

I'm trying to figure out why someone puts a question mark at the end of a declaration.

 

Funny. . .strange, surprising, odd, . .differing from the ordinary. I've played almost 100 rounds of golf this year and never seen the original ball found after the 2019 drop was used. If you think of it as a "replacement" for the provisional, it's conceivable that the original ball might be allowed into play, but it was "edge case" enough that I was suspicious.

 

We had 4 experienced golfers on the course that day and none of us was sure if it was valid.

 

FTR : you don't need to respond to my statement about your statement. It was merely an attempt to point out how easy it is to play pedantry with each other if that's what you really want the forum to be.

 

.

[antip]

> @Sawgrass said:

> . . . and it was not meant to address the OP's situation.

 

Thanks

[davep043]

> @Sawgrass said:

> Let’s acknowledge that with a local rule in place, you can take a penalty area drop and legally call the next shot a provisional.

 

Just to make sure I understand what you mean, it is acceptable to enact a local rule that allows such a provisional for ball which might be in a penalty area (Model Local Rule B-3).

[tungstenplug]

Good on you for knowing your local rules. That local rule is not in effect at my course

[davep043]

> @kevinscott22 said:

> Good on you for knowing your local rules. That local rule is not in effect at my course

 

Nor on mine. I was just trying to make sure I understood what @Sawgrass was getting at. If he was interpreting Local Rule E-5, which was the basis for the OP, I'd have some concern. Either he would be wrong, or I would learn something new.

[Sawgrass]

I was talking about a local rule for PAs, I was not talking about a drop for a lost ball, I was only attempting to prevent confusion about the “always” I spoke of above. Alas, I created confusion.