My Road to Improvement - 7/9/25 new swing video

[TheDeanAbides]

In addition: any par 5 is an easy six if you hit solid shots that can't get you into trouble. You can't account for duffs - they're gonna happen until they don't. 

[bortass]

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

When you have a tricky hole like this that you need to plot your way around it's best to think backwards. Work out where you'd ideally like to play your shot into the green from and then where you'd like to play the lay up from. If it puts your game under too much pressure to get to that point with a driver then have a layup to the layup strategy. Problem holes always need to have a very clear strategy in order to overcome the blocks. 

 

I know it can seen negative, but if you have 20+ shots then this is what they're for because there will be holes where you can confidently go for the green in reg. 

This makes sense to me. This hole is all about damage control for me. I want to reduce the risk of blowing up on this hole. A shot into the right trees off the tee is a double or worse right away. Hitting my second shot into the bunker is very likely going to be  a double. I don't expect to play this hole looking for par. I just gotta reduce the number of doubles and triples. Maybe this is a hole that will always be a double+ average for me until I make some gains with my swing. I'm okay with that, for now, if that's the case. I want to see if there's something I can do with how I play this hole though. I'm not convinced that the only way to do better on #10 is swing improvement but if that's the case, that's the case.

[bortass]

@betarhoalphadelta @SNIPERBBB @dvq9654 @TheDeanAbides I want to thank all of you for the input regarding hole 10. My replies have been a bit scattered, I haven't touched on what Brad and Sniper were talking about yet for example. I just want you guys to know that I greatly appreciate it.

[betarhoalphadelta]

15 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Im talking about the second shot. If you're short of the dogleg you have to layup to the right which is only good for a back left pin.

 

Ahh, I get what you're saying. If you're short of the dogleg and your first shot is down the left side, then you're in a pinch because you can only lay up to the right. However if you're short of the dogleg and your ball is on the right side of the fairway, IMHO it opens up the angle significantly. 

 

I don't think pin placement is all that critical. It looks like a big green and if you're laying up to wedge distance, you take the bunker out of play because you're going to be hitting over it with a club that can stop the ball on the green. The bunker is a bigger issue if you're taking 5i or 7i into the green as you can't roll it up and any mishit is likely to be short in the bunker, but a wedge shot shouldn't be impacted much if you're close enough to aim center of the green. 

[SNIPERBBB]

4 hours ago, bortass said:

This makes sense to me. This hole is all about damage control for me. I want to reduce the risk of blowing up on this hole. A shot into the right trees off the tee is a double or worse right away. Hitting my second shot into the bunker is very likely going to be  a double. I don't expect to play this hole looking for par. I just gotta reduce the number of doubles and triples. Maybe this is a hole that will always be a double+ average for me until I make some gains with my swing. I'm okay with that, for now, if that's the case. I want to see if there's something I can do with how I play this hole though. I'm not convinced that the only way to do better on #10 is swing improvement but if that's the case, that's the case.

I think if you would get better/more comfortable hitting irons into the green, you shouldnt be stuck on double on this hole unless you're in the trees.

 

Even if you did settle on double for this hole, you may as well get aggressive with your second second shot into the green. Erring long or  left on this hole with the second shot would be the play. Looks like youve got plenty of room behind the green to miss if the bunker is your problem.

[bortass]

47 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

I think if you would get better/more comfortable hitting irons into the green, you shouldnt be stuck on double on this hole unless you're in the trees.

 

Even if you did settle on double for this hole, you may as well get aggressive with your second second shot into the green. Erring long or  left on this hole with the second shot would be the play. Looks like youve got plenty of room behind the green to miss if the bunker is your problem.

This also makes sense, lol. 

 

I am going to have to think about things. The balls that go into the right trees off the tee lead to a double or more. No way am I getting a bogey from the trees without some serious luck. If I'm in the right trees, I might as well swing driver and at least get closer to the hole for my drop, lol. Too far right and shots into the green have to at the left side and it brings the right trees into play more. Ideal driver shot would be a draw towards the middle/just right of middle. it would then feed down slope and to the left but not reach the left trees. The days I am hitting the lower draws with driver it would work. That push fade though....

 

Just getting the ball into the fairway with something that is unlikely to go that far right avoids the instant double+ It doesn't mean I won't get a double+ if I screw up my either of the next 2 shots though.

 

The push fade off the tee with driver or 4w are the shots that tend to kill me. I can start a round and hit 4 or more draws off the tee and suddenly hit that high push fade into the right trees, lol. Hooks are very rare for me.

[betarhoalphadelta]

Maybe we should look at #10 a slightly different way...

 

With your [good] 4w tee shots (x4), you say you've been left with 5i (x2) and 7i (x2) approaches. You came up short on three of the four. And the fourth was pulled, which generally adds length (reduces loft by closing the face).  

 

You say you hit your 7i "high", so I'm thinking that you shouldn't leave it short in the bunker unless you mishit it (which is possible). Or... Unless it's just not enough club... 

 

From your description, you say you're hitting to an elevated green from the fairway. How much is the elevation change? Do you use a rangefinder with slope feature? 

 

Are you sure you're accounting for the elevation change on these shots enough? Maybe your 7i shots should have been 6i shots, and your 5i should have been 4i or 7w (whatever is your club below 5i)?

[SNIPERBBB]

14 minutes ago, bortass said:

This also makes sense, lol. 

 

I am going to have to think about things. The balls that go into the right trees off the tee lead to a double or more. No way am I getting a bogey from the trees without some serious luck. If I'm in the right trees, I might as well swing driver and at least get closer to the hole for my drop, lol. Too far right and shots into the green have to at the left side and it brings the right trees into play more. Ideal driver shot would be a draw towards the middle/just right of middle. it would then feed down slope and to the left but not reach the left trees. The days I am hitting the lower draws with driver it would work. That push fade though....

 

Just getting the ball into the fairway with something that is unlikely to go that far right avoids the instant double+ It doesn't mean I won't get a double+ if I screw up my either of the next 2 shots though.

 

The push fade off the tee with driver or 4w are the shots that tend to kill me. I can start a round and hit 4 or more draws off the tee and suddenly hit that high push fade into the right trees, lol. Hooks are very rare for me.

Which would bring the next question up...if you took dead aim at the left edge of the fairway with driver/4w, whats the percentages of the ball being in play vs in the trees either side?

[bortass]

 

13 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Which would bring the next question up...if you took dead aim at the left edge of the fairway with driver/4w, whats the percentages of the ball being in play vs in the trees either side?

 

I wish I could say for sure. I have a wide dispersion pattern that's right biased. I do miss left. I noticed a fair number are on #3 and #7. #3 is a dog leg right and if I hit a draw I'll miss left of center and it's a wide fairway. #7 is a hole that I aim left on purpose because it's wide and I am trying to avoid OOB right.  Some of the others I know are aim issues where I thought I was setup correctly but I finish my swing facing left of my target and the ball was a baby draw, operator error. It's definitely something I could try for a bit to see what happens. 

 

[bortass]

Now for the next problem hole, #14. 543 yard par 5, one round in the image below was from the forward tees which are 447 yards. #4 HCP hole. Wide fairway. The white tee box is elevated. The forward tees are not. The fairway slopes towards the pond. OOB right and left. The green is about 38 yards long and 20 yards at it's widest. Most shots are coming in at an angle to this green.

 

 

 

My current strategy is driver, longest club I think I can hit down the left side, maybe go for green depending on distance and angles with the third shot but  I don't have any GIR lately, so hitting the green in 3 isn't happening...

 

I average 7.2 on this hole right now. 3 penalties. One a S&D OOB tee shot. The other a topped PW into the pond. So it's not a litany of penalties right now but i have hit a lot of ball OOB right on this hole.....

 

 

Tee shot: Driver and I aim left. My mishit is a high push fade into the are where the cluster of 5i, 5h, and the 4w shot are. It's OOB and I have 1 S&D in the mix but put the provisional into the fairway. If the ball goes high and right and I find it, it's in the rough and sometimes the slope and rough takes 4w out of my options. If I am in the left rough it could be a ball below my feet situation

 

Second shot: Of the 7, I mishit two of them. a 5h and a 4w, both were likely to have been bladed and didn't go far. 

 

Third shot: The 8i that's by itself was an odd shot. I was laying up and hit a low punch 154 yards and just short of the green. The cluster of PW and 8i shots near the green would be approaches between 90 and 130 yards out.

 

I missed the green 7 times. 

154 yard 8i layup that was short of the green. Pitch with SW but aim is bad and I'm in the left fringe. Chip with putter to 2 feet and 1 putt.

 

125 yard 8i into the second  that is on the left side of the green. 2 shots to get the ball into the fringe. Chip with putter to 3 feet and 2 putt. 

 

123 yard 8i into the rough near the front left bunker. The ball was greenside of said bunker. SW shot, likely a bladed chip, went through the back of the green and into the fringe near the far part of the second bunker on the left. Chip with putter to 10 feet and 2 putt.

 

PW from 110 yards that I tried to hit a full shot with. Topped it 66 yards or so into the pond. Drop and pitch to 11 feet and 2 putt.

 

145 yard 8i into the back left bunker, I somehow nuked this shot... 2 shots to get into the fringe. Chip with putter to 1 foot and 1 putt.

 

Forward tees round alert: 45 yard SW pitch that missed left and into front left bunker. One to get into the fringe. Chip with putter to 7 feet and 2 putt.

 

Partial PW shot that went 115 yards and not the normal 90 into the back left fringe between the bunker and green. Chip with putter to 1 foot and 1 putt.

 

My initial thoughts.

• A tee shot that's a high push fade is likely to end with a bogey if it's in the rough. It's a double+ if OOB.
• Tee shots that are in the left rough may have a forced layup if the ball is below my feet but that isn't super common.
• Second shot is always aimed left to avoid the pond and the natural slope of the course will feed the ball to the right. I almost never hit my second shot into the lake( I can't recall if i have or not).
• Missing the green kills me. I play to avoid the pond as much as possible and end up either in the bunkers on the left or the left fringe between bunkers and green.
• I putt okayish on this hole. Can't excuse a miss from 3 feet but it's a problem area in my game the last few months. So I can't blame the hole.

 

Possible strategy: I am torn here to be honest. My current strategy is listed first.

• Driver off the tee and aim left.
• Second shot with longest club and aim as left as I can.
• Try to hit the green with 8i or less.

OR 

• Concede par and try to hit this green in 4.
• Tee off with a shorter club, maybe 4w to reduce the risk of hitting the high push fade towards OOB right.
• Try to figure out the combination of clubs that leaves me 70 yards or closer after the next two shots.
• Partial SW or pitch onto the green.

Driver off the tee and I can have a short iron or wedge in but I tend to miss the green. Shorter club off the tee to reduce tee shot penalties and try to get on in 4 and maybe reduce the short game issues with the bunkers.... I can par this hole and have done so with my normal strategy but it's not common. My latest par was getting up and down versus a 2 putt GIR.

[95124hacker]

Wish I could actually play these holes myself a few times. Even though your descriptions and diagrams are helpful, there’s nothing like playing these holes myself  & figuring out the best way to play them given my own skill set. Par 5’s, unless I can reach the end of the FW with my drive or the landing area is really narrow (which seems to be the case here), I always go for driver to give myself a short “par 4” left. If I have to lay up, I’m going to make sure my 3rd shot is with an 8-iron or less as I have confidence in those clubs with my distance & directional control. That 10th hole par 4, I really have to see the elevation change for myself & the angles to avoid tree trouble from the tee & the approach. I usually hit a pretty straight ball, but can draw or fade if the shot really calls for it.

[SNIPERBBB]

@bortass

 

If you're bunker game isnt reliable i would definitely stop aiming leftside of that green. Especially if you tend to blade bunker shots across the green, which would put you in the water here.

 

Unless your tendency is a big fade or just plain blocks with your short irons, I dont see why you shouldn't just go for the middle of the green. We need to be talking better than 10% chance of the ball going in the water if you go middle of the green here to contemplate laying up short or aiming for a bunker where you may as well of put the ball in the pond as you're looking at the same result for your score or worse!

[bortass]

6 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

@bortass

 

If you're bunker game isnt reliable i would definitely stop aiming leftside of that green. Especially if you tend to blade bunker shots across the green, which would put you in the water here.

 

Unless your tendency is a big fade or just plain blocks with your short irons, I dont see why you shouldn't just go for the middle of the green. We need to be talking better than 10% chance of the ball going in the water if you go middle of the green here to contemplate laying up short or aiming for a bunker where you may as well of put the ball in the pond as you're looking at the same result for your score or worse!

Good point. What I recall, so it may not be very accurate or is selective, is I tend to go for middle of the green. A couple shots that went long went through the green and into the left bunkers based on angles. Any left miss will most likely be in those bunkers regardless of my angle into the green. I do know that I had a big push fade with my irons back in 2020 and hit a few pond balls. I still have the ball leak right at times with an iron but it's not as bad as it used to be.

 

This hole may just be about execution and focusing on my target on the green better. Improvements in the short game would help with a miss of the green but that's not course management since I don't see a good miss except for the section of rough between the green and the fairway which is either short or short left depending on the actual approach angle.

 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I think based on your distances a Driver/4w gets you to 8i or below approach, which is what you want. And as you mention, it seems to mostly avoid hitting into the water in your second shot, so that helps. 

 

That would mean that going 4w or shorter off the tee basically turns this into a 4-shot hole, because an approach over water with, say, a 5i is a little dicey. 

 

So the question would be how likely you are to be hitting OOB off the tee with driver, and how often with another club? You say it's a wide fairway and you've only been OOB off the tee once, and it seems your driver has been more tame with the draw lately rather than fading it OOB into the trees...

 

If you think OOB is REALLY in play off the tee a lot, and you can avoid it with a shorter club, then it becomes a 4-shot hole. The advantage of that is that you can lay up a lot closer to the green on shot #3, making it less likely to miss the green on shot #4. Since you've been missing the green on shot #3 anyway, that could help. BUT, doing that likely brings the water more into play on shot #3, i.e. any iron lay-up that leaks right is wet. So I don't think it's really worth it. The other problem with a 4-shot approach is that we're high-caps... We can duff any club at any time. Deliberately picking a 4-shot approach just gives you 33% more chance to have a duff that turns this into a 5-shot hole lol...

 

My thought would be driver on this hole, and then make the determination on how to play it based on where the drive ends up. A good drive becomes 4w followed by short iron approach. A drive somewhere that you don't have a good angle or distance to get a 4w into 8i or shorter range and you look at a GIR+1 strategy instead of trying to "hero" a shot from there. With a wide fairway, you just have to hit a halfway-decent shot to avoid OOB. It's not like this is a crazy tight hole with tons of trouble in the landing area.

[Myherobobhope]

18 hours ago, bortass said:

• Second shot is always aimed left to avoid the pond and the natural slope of the course will feed the ball to the right. I almost never hit my second shot into the lake( I can't recall if i have or not).
•  

I'm curious on this one here... if you were closer to the pond, would you have a better look at the green? It might be worth biting off some more risk to set yourself up for a better shot. Not a HUGE amount of risk or anything, but you might be aiming too far away from the pond and closing out options for yourself. 

 

This SHOULDN'T be a 4 shot hole (it might be right now, but I'm talking long term strategy).

 

Pick a reachable distance for 2 shots, is there a place you'd be more comfortable having your 3rd shot from? I'd figure out how to get there as often as possible.

[SNIPERBBB]

1 hour ago, bortass said:

Good point. What I recall, so it may not be very accurate or is selective, is I tend to go for middle of the green. A couple shots that went long went through the green and into the left bunkers based on angles. Any left miss will most likely be in those bunkers regardless of my angle into the green. I do know that I had a big push fade with my irons back in 2020 and hit a few pond balls. I still have the ball leak right at times with an iron but it's not as bad as it used to be.

 

This hole may just be about execution and focusing on my target on the green better. Improvements in the short game would help with a miss of the green but that's not course management since I don't see a good miss except for the section of rough between the green and the fairway which is either short or short left depending on the actual approach angle.

 

 

Another thought would be to go at the right side of the green and dare that ball to go right as a bit of reverse psychology, especially if the right side of the green is marked as a red penalty area so that as long as you dont go in the water long you can get a favorable drop if it crosses the margin beside the green.

[bortass]

@betarhoalphadelta OOB is always in play but I find it's situational. My driver swing is streaky at times. I went a decent period where I was hitting it great, for me, followed by a couple months, or that's what it felt like, where i couldn't keep my driver from going right on me.

 

The drive that hurts is a high push fade OOB. I can produce that shot at anytime but it's not a given like it has been at other times. I hope that makes sense.

 

View from the white tees that was posted previously. Off the tee the hole is like a bobsled chute in a way. The slope on the left feeds into the fairway down the entire hole. There's also a slope on the right side of this hole that goes towards the fairway until you get very close to the pond. It's not obvious because it's covered in trees until you get to that last tree you see on the right. It opens up on the right side and there's a fairly steep slope that is covered in rough with OOB at the top in a backyard. That's where my high push fade goes. Too much right I'm OOB. A bit less and I'm in rough with ball above feet. Say I get into the rough at the base of that slope, it turns into a question of how much downslope am I dealing with. Sometimes i feel good with my 4w, sometimes not.

 

It is a wide hole and I think driver is the way to go unless I have a good reason not to such as I have been sending the ball off to the right all time. I have never used my 4w from these tees. I didn't move back to the whites until I felt I could hit my driver good enough to use. The 4w on this hole was from the forward tees.

 

View from the fairway, not sure exactly where I was on the hole though. As you can see everything slopes to the pond. If I am on the right side of the hole off the tee, I aim into this slope because it'll kick my ball to the right and sometimes you can get a lot of roll. If I am already in the fairway say middle or left, I still aim down this slope. A ball with a curve right risks the pond even if it lands in the middle of the fairway depending on roll out and my 4w is not normally a high shot that stops.

 

BTW that dark line you see short of the green is where the pond cuts in short of the green.

 

@Myherobobhope The more right you are in the fairway, the more pond you need to carry but the angle into the green changes some. Left/right dispersion results namely, the green get's wider versus coming from the left where the green gets deeper. A slight fade is likely to be on the green. A push fade/slice, bladed, or topped shot is what will go into the pond.

 

@SNIPERBBBIt comes down to where did it last cross the margin. Most of the time, for me, I cross the margin short of the green and the ball never crosses it again. Hitting the bank and rolling back in should be a drop on the bank near the green.

 

 

[bortass]

Next problem hole is #18, 504 yard par 5, I average 7.0 on this hole recently. There is a forced carry over a stream with the second or third shot depending on if you layup short of it. A pond fronts the green which must be carried if you are going for the green from the tee box side of the stream. @TheDeanAbides and I discussed this hole a decent bit the other week when he was asking me detailed course management questions. 

 

The average score may be a touch low since I have at least one round that was an X in the mix. This is from a couple rounds ago where I got a triple bogey.

 

Left side is a steep slope covered in mature trees and has a very thick layer of leaves under them. It's easy to lose balls up there. The right trees are marked as a hazard the entire way. The fairway itself is decently wide. I tend to aim a bit left of center with my driver to try to reduce the risk of the high push fade into the right trees. Basically the same tee shot shape that's an issue on #14, which is the last hole we discussed, is an issue here. It's just a single stroke and not S&D is all.

 

I can reach the green with my 7w from the tee box side of the stream. I have a couple pars on this hole recently because of that shot. In the image about I left myself too far out and didn't want to risk a 4w at the green, so I did my normal strategy and played down the left side.

 

Source(s) of penalties on this hole:

• Tee shot into the right trees
• Topping or blading , normally a wood, into the stream.
• I have lost balls in the pond but it's mostly when my third shot down the left side goes a bit too far right. I have had the ball land and roll in the pond mostly. A few times it was more of a push or a bad push fade/slice with an iron where the ball curved over the pond and dropped in. Overall this penalty isn't very common.
• I have had pond balls while going for the green with my 7w only a couple of time. Keep in mind going for the green with my 7w is not very common. 

 

Main issues:

• Execution really. Sometimes I play down the left side and chunk a partial wedge into the green. That's not happened in quite a while though. Sometimes I top/blade a ball into the stream. It's gonna happen.
• Short game. The back bunkers are not a good place for me to be. I did get a par when I had a great pitch to 1 foot within the last month but that's an exception.

 

Strategy because I think my current strategy is fine and this is just a tough hole.

• Driver off the tee. If I hit it very good and into the fairway, I can hit my second shot across the stream with anything from a 6i - 4w. I base this by how far I need to carry to have the ball be safely past the stream by 20 yards. The longer the club, the more I have to think about it based on how I'm playing, etc. If not, layup short of the stream.
• Second shot determined above.
• Third shot at the green if already across the stream. If laid up, go for green if I have favorable conditions with my 7w, so this is a day by day thing. Otherwise, lay up down the left side and go for green in 4.

I don't try dumb stuff on this hole unless the round is already in the tank. For example, I have tried to hit the green with a 4w when the day has been a disaster overall.

 

I also need to keep in mind that Xs happen on this hole because it's the last hole of the day. if I hit my tee shot into the right trees, layup, and then hit my next shot into the stream or pond, I'm done. So my numbers may be a bit low in reality.

 

I have two pars on this hole within the last 7 rounds at this course. Both times I laid up short of the stream and hit my 7w at the green in 3. Once I landed on the green for #9, took relief and hit my pitch to a foot. The other I hit the green an 2 putt for par.

Edited January 27, 2022 by bortass

[bortass]

That concludes the section of 'terrible holes' where I average double or more. The next 7 are holes I average between 1.5 and 1.9 strokes over par.

 

One of them is #15 we was discussed weeks ago. It's a short par 5 and my driver was going into the trees too much. I've used 5i off the tee twice since then and had a par and a bogey. It's still very early but I think this new strategy off the tee will help until something improves enough with my game to make a change.

 

I may make a post for each of them but without as much detail. Typing it helps force me to think about it and it's really trying to see if there's a pattern to be fixed or if it's just a lack of execution/skill on my part.  Hopefully, this hasn't turned into a painful to read topic lately.

[betarhoalphadelta]

That one looks a lot more like a 4-shot strategy IMHO. 

 

Am I correct that there's a fairway bunker down the right side that's right in range of your driver distance? So you have extra trouble in addition to OB/trees? 

 

So here's my thinking: 

• The stream puts you in a difficult position. If you hit a perfect drive, you should be able to easily clear the stream and lay up. But anything that leaks to the right brings the pond into play, which is probably more likely with a long iron or wood than with a short iron. Then if you DO make it safely over the stream and avoid the pond, your approach is longer and still brings the pond into play if it's a push or fade, and you'll be far enough from the green that missing the green from that distance is more likely. 
• If you hit a less than perfect drive, you bring the trees, fairway bunker, etc into play. That could be a lost ball, or a shot where you simply have to punch out and now you're at a distance where clearing the stream is in jeopardy. You're at blow up territory there. 
•  
• Conversely, if you take a shorter club off the tee--not even necessarily 4w. You could go 7w or 5i. You're in the widest part of the fairway and definitively short of the bunker. You'd have to be way off line with that club to bring lost ball / trees into play. 
• From the shorter drive location, you're taking "clearing the stream" out of play. So you can focus on a club that stops safely short of the stream. 
• From short of the stream, much like what you show in the above round, you have a shorter iron to cross the stream, stay safely left of the pond, and give yourself a good angle at the green. 
• Your 4th shot will be a short pitch, where (like all of us high cap) you're unlikely to get up and down all that often, but you at least have that opportunity for par and at the least it should be an easy bogey. 

I just don't see how a good drive really helps you all that much, because there's trouble with the stream and pond on shot #2, and then with the pond and bunkers on shot #3. If the only hazard was the stream and no pond, it's a much safer 3-shot hole. But with the pond back there, it makes all attempts to clear the stream on the second shot a lot more dangerous. 

 

My $0.02.

[bortass]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

That one looks a lot more like a 4-shot strategy IMHO. 

 

Am I correct that there's a fairway bunker down the right side that's right in range of your driver distance? So you have extra trouble in addition to OB/trees? 

 

So here's my thinking: 

• The stream puts you in a difficult position. If you hit a perfect drive, you should be able to easily clear the stream and lay up. But anything that leaks to the right brings the pond into play, which is probably more likely with a long iron or wood than with a short iron. Then if you DO make it safely over the stream and avoid the pond, your approach is longer and still brings the pond into play if it's a push or fade, and you'll be far enough from the green that missing the green from that distance is more likely. 
• If you hit a less than perfect drive, you bring the trees, fairway bunker, etc into play. That could be a lost ball, or a shot where you simply have to punch out and now you're at a distance where clearing the stream is in jeopardy. You're at blow up territory there. 
•  
• Conversely, if you take a shorter club off the tee--not even necessarily 4w. You could go 7w or 5i. You're in the widest part of the fairway and definitively short of the bunker. You'd have to be way off line with that club to bring lost ball / trees into play. 
• From the shorter drive location, you're taking "clearing the stream" out of play. So you can focus on a club that stops safely short of the stream. 
• From short of the stream, much like what you show in the above round, you have a shorter iron to cross the stream, stay safely left of the pond, and give yourself a good angle at the green. 
• Your 4th shot will be a short pitch, where (like all of us high cap) you're unlikely to get up and down all that often, but you at least have that opportunity for par and at the least it should be an easy bogey. 

I just don't see how a good drive really helps you all that much, because there's trouble with the stream and pond on shot #2, and then with the pond and bunkers on shot #3. If the only hazard was the stream and no pond, it's a much safer 3-shot hole. But with the pond back there, it makes all attempts to clear the stream on the second shot a lot more dangerous. 

 

My $0.02.

Thanks for the input!

 

There is a fairway bunker that's barely in range in my experience. I can reach it with a solid drive and have been in it less than 5 times across all my rounds. I really think it's more like 2-3 times. My mishit of a high push fade can't reach it. I have hit a few very solid draws into the fairway and had the ball be past the front edge of that bunker. It's always been a non issue/consideration for me. Landing in it forces a 4 shot strategy unless I get the ball close enough to the edge of the stream to try for the green with my 7w.

 

The hard part for me is my old strategy was always 4 shots to hit the green. Drive, lay up, cross stream, and then hit green. But like you said with hole #14, every additional shot is another chance for something to go wrong. Granted my mishits aren't as common nor as bad as they once were but they are still present.

 

The 'hybrid' strategy of see what the tee shot leaves me means I can try for the green in 3, at times, but if the ball lands in the pond, my drop is on the near side of it.

 

Now the reality is I almost always lay up with my second shot. I need to be in great position i.e. very good drive into the level fairway to go for it. This time of year, it's cold and wet, so I'm unlikely to get that required distance off the tee.

 

My recent 6 scores are: 5, 5, 7, 8, 10, and an X that Arccos has as a 7. The X had 2 penalty strokes. Drive into right trees and then topped 7w into the stream. The 10 had a single penalty when I hit a bad push fade into the pond with my 4w when I was trying to go down the left side in 4. I had a good drive and duffed my PW layup....

 

So in that light 4 shot strategy makes more sense as well. 

 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I don't think the 7w approach from behind the stream, over the pond, is a good strategy for players of our skill level. Even if you've pulled it off in the past. Entertaining that as a strategy may also make you too aggressive with your lay-up to try to get it close to the stream, and risk going in (as you've said has happened before when you hit a shot longer than you expected). 

 

If you trust keeping the driver in play, though, a hybrid strategy is fine. A good drive and you're trying to get it over the stream. A bad drive and it's a 4-shot hole laying up short of the stream. 

 

I just really don't like the idea of that long 7w. 

[bortass]

46 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

I don't think the 7w approach from behind the stream, over the pond, is a good strategy for players of our skill level. Even if you've pulled it off in the past. Entertaining that as a strategy may also make you too aggressive with your lay-up to try to get it close to the stream, and risk going in (as you've said has happened before when you hit a shot longer than you expected). 

 

If you trust keeping the driver in play, though, a hybrid strategy is fine. A good drive and you're trying to get it over the stream. A bad drive and it's a 4-shot hole laying up short of the stream. 

 

I just really don't like the idea of that long 7w. 

I hear ya. It's pure risk reward but it's not a hero or zero shot for me either. So it's weighing the overall odds/cost of it. At what point would I break even/turn a profit? Is 10% wet okay? 20%? I have no clue and don't have the skill nor data to determine that. It's not a shot I've hit 100 times and know I screw it up 50% of the time. I've probably tried it under 20 times, so even if I was fine 75% of the time, that doesn't mean it's a good idea because of the small sample size, lol.

 

I do think it's one of those shots that a person needs to try once in a while to challenge their game and see if they can do it. We'd never grow if we only hit what we knew was a 95% safe shot all the time. You need smart aggression out there and not play 100% safe or scared of bad stuff. Also can't be a dummy and keep at it when it's obviously not working either.

 

Good stuff to think about!

[betarhoalphadelta]

43 minutes ago, bortass said:

I hear ya. It's pure risk reward but it's not a hero or zero shot for me either. So it's weighing the overall odds/cost of it. At what point would I break even/turn a profit? Is 10% wet okay? 20%? I have no clue and don't have the skill nor data to determine that. It's not a shot I've hit 100 times and know I screw it up 50% of the time. I've probably tried it under 20 times, so even if I was fine 75% of the time, that doesn't mean it's a good idea because of the small sample size, lol.

 

I do think it's one of those shots that a person needs to try once in a while to challenge their game and see if they can do it. We'd never grow if we only hit what we knew was a 95% safe shot all the time. You need smart aggression out there and not play 100% safe or scared of bad stuff. Also can't be a dummy and keep at it when it's obviously not working either.

 

Good stuff to think about!

 

Yeah, I challenge myself with shots like that on an 18th hole when I know my round is shot and isn't counting towards my cap anyway 😉 

 

I'm saying that from that distance, with a 7w, it's not like you're trying to stick it to 5'. With dispersion, getting over the water you're still probably very lucky if it even ends up on the green. And getting it to one-putt distance is like a lottery win. Like on my 18th at Oso. I know if I strike a 4w well off the tee, I can reach the green. Doesn't mean I'm gonna be on it!

 

So yeah, it's risk/reward. But it's not a big reward because from that distance you don't have a good likelihood to get it close anyway. And a penalty is a big risk. 

 

Compare that to a lay-up well left of the pond leaving yourself a 50y pitch to the pin from a better angle. You basically take the risk out of play. And you're probably going to be no worse than two-putt territory. And your likelihood of one-putting from a 50y pitch is a lot better than it is from a ~170 yard fairway wood. 

 

I'll give you an example... Here's #5 at my little executive course:

 

 

Listed at 210 yards, par 4. Often plays ~190 yards when the tees are up. 

 

It's not shown all that well, but the green from the tee box is wide and shallow. The green is probably 15 feet vertically above the pond, with a very steep slope between that won't usually hold a ball. 

 

I've got a 190 shot. That's a 5i. On the green in 1 and it's a birdie hole. 

 

When the pin is right in front, and the tees are up, meaning it's on the very right side of the green, this is a shot I'll go for. 190 is a 5i for me, and as long as I don't overcook the hook, the direction plays well for me to potentially run it up there and the water isn't something I need to carry. 

 

If the pin is anywhere but there, and/or the tees aren't up, I hit an 8i into the fairway. Because of the orientation of the green, that gives me a PERFECT angle basically wherever the pin is, because what is a wide and shallow green from the tee is a long and deep green from the "dogleg". Even if I hit a perfect 5i off the tee, I have to wonder whether I'll have enough spin to stop it. If I don't hit it perfect, it's probably a water ball with my draw. Even if I have perfect contact, there's a good chance I'll end up left, right, or over the green. And my pitching game isn't great, so pitching from near the green is more than likely pitching and two-putt for par. 

 

I don't know exactly how many rounds I have at this course. My Garmin app says 13 (I usually don't log these in The Grint). In 13 rounds, I've probably gone for the green 4-5 times. I've never been on in 1. So what's, REALLY, the risk/reward worth for me? 

[95124hacker]

What is the carry distance to cross the stream on your 2nd shot if you have a clean lie? From eyeball scaling it on the image, it looks like 160 ish from your 211 tee shot? That’s the shot you need on this hole, maybe a lofted hybrid if a long iron is uncomfortable for you.

 

Edit: I re-read your post & you said 6i-4w to carry the stream on your 2nd shot. The landing area just past the stream on the other side looks open & wide, bigger than the green for sure. I’d rather go for it on my 2nd shot vs the same club for my approach on the tee box side of the stream. Just need to elevate it & not thin it into the stream.

Edited January 28, 2022 by 95124hacker

[SNIPERBBB]

I think 20 yard margin to carry the stream is bit too conservative unless you're in the rough. If you're distances are off maybe you think about it but unless you really need to protect a good round score here, just no reason to layup that short.

[tthomasgolfer605]

On 1/21/2022 at 3:53 PM, bortass said:

 

 

I wish I could say for sure. I have a wide dispersion pattern that's right biased. I do miss left. I noticed a fair number are on #3 and #7. #3 is a dog leg right and if I hit a draw I'll miss left of center and it's a wide fairway. #7 is a hole that I aim left on purpose because it's wide and I am trying to avoid OOB right.  Some of the others I know are aim issues where I thought I was setup correctly but I finish my swing facing left of my target and the ball was a baby draw, operator error. It's definitely something I could try for a bit to see what happens. 

 

Looks like your swing needs some work. Have any vids on here somewhere?

[TheDeanAbides]

5 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Looks like your swing needs some work. Have any vids on here somewhere?

It does. We’re working on it, but also  seeing where we can find some shots from course management.

[tthomasgolfer605]

10 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

It does. We’re working on it, but also  seeing where we can find some shots from course management.

Sounds good Dean. 🖖

 

[bortass]

17 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

I think 20 yard margin to carry the stream is bit too conservative unless you're in the rough. If you're distances are off maybe you think about it but unless you really need to protect a good round score here, just no reason to layup that short.

On which side of the stream are you referring to?

 

The fairway get's dodgy just short of the stream because of flooding. There's a flat area but it has no grass and you may have your ball sitting on either dirt, hard pan, or silt. I don't have a specific yardage range to stay short of the stream, I just do my best to not hit a shot that can roll into it. I have never hit a layup into the stream yet and hope to avoid that. I may give it too wide of a berth though. I can play around with thinsg and see what happens.

 

My original 20 yard comment was the buffer on the target side if I want to hit over the stream w/o laying up first. Say far side of the stream is 150 yards out. I'll hit my 7w most likely since it's a 175ish club.  More than that and it's how good do I feel with my 4w that day. If I had 170 yard carry, I probably lay up. My 4w is around 185ish and I don't want to be hitting something that if it's slightly mishit will cost me. I know the mishits happen at times, just like the great shots where the 4w goes 195+.

 

17 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Looks like your swing needs some work. Have any vids on here somewhere?

There are a few videos in this thread of my swing.  It has issues and I know it needs work as @TheDeanAbides mentioned. I looking at how can I play better with my current skillset. I am pretty sure I could score better than I am with the current state of my game. I am not expecting a miracle or anything but I think I can shave a few strokes here and there with smarter play. That's why I'm looking at the holes i score the worst on to see what the pattern is, if any. It could be course management off the tee or just don't hit it into the bunker all the time.