What shaft length for a 45" playing length SIM driver

[WeritoK2]

Hi guys!

My standard SIM 9 degrees (NOT MAX) which I custom ordered from Taylormade, came longer than I asked (as usual). I haven't measure it but comparing to other shafts I have laying around, its clearly longer, around .4 to .5 inches longer

I am thinking of butt trimming the shaft so my Driver playing length be 45" long.

Does anybody know the size of this new SIM head? I mean, regardless of the actual length my shaft came, what length should my shaft or any other shaft be FROM GRIP TO TIP to have a 45" playing length SIM Driver?

Also, I believe by butt trimming it, it wil perform different? Shaft is a Ventus Blue 6S with Velocore.

Thank you guys

 

[Stuart_G]

Best guess is: 1-3/4" (BBGM) - 7/16" (amount adapter extends past the tip) = 1-5/16" is how much longer the playing length will be than the length of the shaft + adapter. 1-1/4" will be close enough for most. But that's based on other members reporting the BBGM, I haven't measure it myself to confirm.

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you have the head and the shaft in hand, it's pretty easy to figure out yourself to make sure. You can (or could have) gotten the answer a lot quicker than waiting for someone to answer the post. Just measure the playing length and subtract the length of the shaft + adapter.

And if you don't know how to measure playing length, it's a good skill to learn and is not that hard nor does it require any special tools. So I recommend you read this: How is the Length of a Golf Club Measured? - Hireko Custom Golf Clubs and Components

[ignitewvu]

44.25 tip to grip

[Stuart_G]

1.25" BBGM for a TM driver? As I said, I haven't measured it myself but I think that's very unlikely. Of all the full size (non-mini) TM driver head BBGM I have measured (since the R9 releases), I haven't come across one less than 1.75". Of all the full size OEM driver heads I've measured since 460cc heads started to be produced, I haven't come across one that was less than 1.5" - well at least not the std bore heads. Some of the older Titleist bore through driver heads could have been less.

Now 1.25" BBGM does sound about right for a TM fairway head.

[ignitewvu]

He was asking what shaft length will play 45" in a SIM head.

I told him the total length with a tip installed. The shaft will need to be 44.25 in the SIM Head to play 45....it might be a hair over but the number is correct.

He clearly is talking about butt trimming the shaft that came with the head, not building a new raw shaft.

Also for the OP no butt trimming won't do anything but make the shaft shorter & lowering the overall swing weight.

[Stuart_G]

I'm aware of all that. And sorry, but none of that change anything about my reply or my level of skepticism.

 

[ignitewvu]

I don't know what to tell you the total length will need to be 44-44.25 range to play a usable 45" in a "SIM" Driver.

This is a fact, I've built a few and hotmelted a few others after trimming. The head is very shallow if you are thinking 43.75 you are simply wrong.

The "Stock" length is 45.75 and a stock SIM Shaft measures a hair over 44.8 on a ruler.

[WeritoK2]

Haha you are all making me more confused than before ?

 

[Stuart_G]

Sorry about that.

But you don't really need either of us :-)

Just follow these steps and it doesn't matter what either of us think.

a) with the shaft installed in the head, use the link I provided to help you measure the playing length of the club with the new shaft (if you need more help understanding how to do this, just ask).

b) remove the shaft from the head and remove the grip from the shaft and measure the length of the shaft to the tip of the adapter

c) remove an amount off the butt equal to the difference between the desired playing length and the measured playing length (step a).

d) install new grip and you're ready to go.

Well, might want to go to the range with some lead tape to adjust swing weight - but that's up to you and dependent on how it feels. But it sounds like you're already used to playing your driver at shorter lengths so might already know what you need to do to the head weight.

 

 

[Stuart_G]

One more thing. Regardless of the specifics, different TM driver heads don't all have the same BBGM so don't assume that just because a certain length shaft gave you a certain playing length in a different head doesn't mean the shaft for this head has to be the same length to give that same playing length. e.g. the fact that this shaft doesn't match the length of the your other shafts doesn't really mean anything. That's why it's important to actually measure out the playing length with the new head before deciding how much to cut off.

 

[Krt22]

I don't have a SIM but a SIM max and this is what I get.

My gamer shaft is 44.25" and plays a hair over 45.375"

I have another shaft that is a hair under 43.875" and plays exactly 45"

Measured on my Mitchell club length ruler, to the end of the grip, not the white lines on the grip.

[WeritoK2]

email reply from Will from Peoples Golf

[mizunoMP14]

I am 99.99% that a just a shaft with adapter and grip should be 43.75" to play 45" but I would have to measure when I get home.

[Shilgy]

Everything I have seen states the play length will be an 1.25” longer than raw length measured end of adapter to end of grip.

 

So yeah, I am agreeing with you. :)

[coreyhr]

The moral of this thread... always listen to Stuart, not the guy trying to tell Stuart that he's wrong.

[jgreer1421]

How much length will the adapter add? Have a raw shaft length, no grip or adapter, measuring 43". Would go into a g410 lst.

[Stuart_G]

The adapter doesn't add anything to the playing length. Playing length is determined by the BBGM of the particular head model (bottom bore to ground measurement). Whether it might use an adapter or not doesn't matter.

Unfortunately I haven't measured the BBGM for the g410lst. But just based on Ping's historical practices for driver design, playing length will either be 44.5" or 44.75" (more likely the former than the later) plus whatever the grip might add.

 

[Brooks_Cupcake]

1/2”

With grip it should play 44.75” in the SIM

[jgreer1421]

much appreciated.

[Kale_m]

44” from Butt end to the end of the adapter plays 45” with the head on

[clinkinfo]

Why are there so many contradictory answers to this question?

 

It's a pretty simple question honestly, and putting aside the folks telling him to measure it himself, it should only have 1 right answer.

 

A shaft with a grip and tm adapter should measure X inches long to play 45" in a sim driver

 

As far as I can tell, the responses have said for the sim X equals:

 

43.5"

43.75"

43.875"

44"

44.25"

 

I'm the end, what is the actual correct answer? When I measure it, the head adds only 3/4 of an inch to playing length (so I'd say the 44.25 answer is right).  But I'm using a sim 2 head, which is all I have at the moment, which could be slightly different.

 

There should just be a chart pinned somewhere for final playing length. For those without a good golf ruler, there's a lot of "slop" in the driver measurement because it's hard to guage the lie angle accurately. It can make a big difference in the final number you get.

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by clinkinfo

[Stuart_G]

34 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

Why are there so many contradictory answers to this question?

 

Two reasons.

1) there is no one single method for measuring playing length.  Different methods can give different results.  And that's more than just "slop" in the measuring process.

 

 

2) More commonly, many confuse (or don't properly clarify) whether the "shaft length" was measured with or without the adapter extending past the actual tip of the shaft.

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Stuart_G

[clinkinfo]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Two reasons.

1) there is no one single method for measuring playing length.  Different methods can give different results.  And that's more than just "slop" in the measuring process.

 

 

2) More commonly, many confuse (or don't properly clarify) whether the "shaft length" was measured with or without the adapter extending past the actual tip of the shaft.

 

 

Appreciate the response, but I don't know, The op and the responses are pretty clear and seem to have the same definition of what length(s) they are trying to determine.  But let's define again what we are asking and get rid of all the "variables" just to be sure:

 

we want a sim playing length of 45 inches.

 

We define playing length as the total length of the club from the grip end to the bottom edge of the club (not any weird manufacturer variation)

 

We are measuring the shaft from the end of the grip, to the end of the adapter. We can call this value X

 

What value of x gives us a 45 inch sim? There are literally 5 different answers in the thread, all answering that same question.

 

I measure 44.25, which then gives a 45 inch playing length.  Others have measured between 43.5-44.25 giving a 45 inch playing length.

 

The usga regulates driver length, so there can only be 1 answer. We can't use different measuring methods and get different answers, someone has to be right and someone is wrong??

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by clinkinfo

[Stuart_G]

 

2 hours ago, clinkinfo said:

We define playing length as the total length of the club from the grip end to the bottom edge of the club (not any weird manufacturer variation)

 

Where on the bottom edge? All the heads have curved soles now.

Or at what lie angle if the ground is used as a reference instead of a particular position on the sole?

 

What part of the grip?  Top of the dome? edge? some marking on the grip?   Then there are those wanting to cut the shaft to length wouldn't even have a grip on the shaft.

 

Along the shaft center line or the back edge of the shaft?

 

Just those variations alone can easily account for 1/4" of difference if not a bit more.

 

2 hours ago, clinkinfo said:

to the end of the adapter.

 

That's one way, but the adapter is really part of the head, not part of the shaft and isn't considered for the head's true BBGM spec so rarely used by the more experienced builders.   And most throwing out numbers in the thread don't specify if it's included or not.   And that can throw off the numbers by another 1/2".

 

[third-times-a-charm]

For Callaway it’s 43.5

 

go look at some eBay auctions for stock shaft pulls and look at the measurements in the photos then just subtract from that based off of the taylormade overall length spec on their site 

[clinkinfo]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

 

 

Where on the bottom edge? All the heads have curved soles now.

Or at what lie angle if the ground is used as a reference instead of a particular position on the sole?

 

What part of the grip?  Top of the dome? edge? some marking on the grip?   Then there are those wanting to cut the shaft to length wouldn't even have a grip on the shaft.

 

Along the shaft center line or the back edge of the shaft?

 

Just those variations alone can easily account for 1/4" of difference if not a bit more.

 

 

That's one way, but the adapter is really part of the head, not part of the shaft and isn't considered for the head's true BBGM spec so rarely used by the more experienced builders.   And most throwing out numbers in the thread don't specify if it's included or not.   And that can throw off the numbers by another 1/2".

 

 

I'm not sure if somewhere along the way this got confused with another thread? Many of the things you're bringing up just are not relevant or are clearly defined already in this question.

 

And The problem is, the measurements vary by .75 inches, more than can be explained by any of those examples  (because most are not actually variables in this example).  We aren't talking about raw shafts, we are talking about the sim driver, and the accompanying shaft with a grip and adapter already connected.  

 

Lie angle shouldn't be relevant, in the USGA guide, the measuring base is set at 60 degrees (see copied rule). Where the sim driver base hits is the measuring orientation, no lie angle interpretation or cuved bottom interpretation required.  Bbgm is not relevant to this discussion, we are measuring overall length and then unscrewing the shaft from the head to measure shaft length with an adapter attached. It's stated pretty clearly by everyone posting, we are not using bbgm to compute anything.  Which component the adapter belongs to is irrelevant, it's glued to the shaft, that's the physical reality, so when we take the head off the adapter goes with the shaft.

 

Per usga:

For woods and irons, the measurement of length is taken when the club is lying on a horizontal plane and the sole is set against a 60 degree plane as shown in Fig. 3.

 

The end cap of the grip, as shown by the usga, is the other measuring end when measuring playing length (and raw shaft length with the grip), but that's been clearly defined too.

 

Again, the usga limits length measured as defined in the rules. If you're measuring using another method, that's fine, but that's not the playing length defined by the usga.  The only variability in the USGA measurement is raising the head of the driver slightly to accommodate for the grip width on the butt end so you're getting a straight reading as they illustrate.  But that's like 1/8...maybe 1/4" at most.

 

Third time's a charm, I've mostly lived in the Callaway driver ecco system, so that's why I was surprised when I kept getting .75 as the additional length for the sim2 head to playing length.  That's much shorter than the Callaway I'm used to.  But, I also accept I might have it wrong. But that's what I'm getting doing the actual measuring as best I can.

 

Ok, I just looked at the sim2 I have and I think I also found the oem shaft as well.  By my measurements on those, the playing length according to TaylorMade is published as 45.75.  the shaft from butt grip end to adapter end is 44.75.  therefore TaylorMade believes the head adds 1 inch to the length of the shaft/adapter/grip.  So by that method a 44 inch shaft from grip end to adapter end will produce a 45 inch playing length in my sim2.  BUT, TaylorMade has been accused of measuring playing length to a different spot on the grip SO, maybe that's the 1/4" discrepancy I get when I actually measure playing length, instead of relying on the published number.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by clinkinfo

[Stuart_G]

9 hours ago, clinkinfo said:

 

We aren't talking about raw shafts, we are talking about the sim driver, and the accompanying shaft with a grip and adapter already connected.  

 

That's what you're talking about and it might even be an accurate description of what the OP is asking about.  But that doesn't mean it's what everyone else is talking about.

 

 

9 hours ago, clinkinfo said:

Lie angle shouldn't be relevant, in the USGA guide, the measuring base is set at 60 degrees (see copied rule). Where the sim driver base hits is the measuring orientation, no lie angle interpretation or cuved bottom interpretation required. 

 

USGA method is one method for measuring, but it's not the only method that's used among club builders nor is it the method always used by OEM's or many available club rulers for purchase (much less the DIY rulers or measurements w/o using a dedicated club ruler).   The only context that the USGA method is dictated is if you need to check if the length exceeds their limits.  Not a common problem for club most builders (professional or hobby).   

 

Again you're basing your arguments on the assumption that your way is the only way or your view is the only valid view.   Sorry, but it's just not - no matter how much you try to validate it.  And it's those types of assumptions that lead to the kinds of confusion you asked about.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by Stuart_G

[clinkinfo]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

That's what you're talking about and it might even be an accurate description of what the OP is asking about.  But that doesn't mean it's what everyone else is talking about.

 

 

 

USGA method is one method for measuring, but it's not the only method that's used among club builders nor is it the method always used by OEM's or many available club rulers for purchase (much less the DIY rulers or measurements w/o using a dedicated club ruler).   The only context that the USGA method is dictated is if you need to check if the length exceeds their limits.  Not a common problem for club most builders (professional or hobby).   

 

Again you're basing your arguments on the assumption that your way is the only way or your view is the only valid view.   Sorry, but it's just not - no matter how much you try to validate it.  And it's those types of assumptions that lead to the kinds of confusion you asked about.

 

 

 

 

 

Respectfully, That's a club building answer.  There's only 1 playing length that matters, as singularly defined by the USGA in the length rule. No ambiguity, all measuring points and methods are clearly defined.

 

That's the regulated rule (which they are contemplating shortening to 46, so club builders and OEMs may HAVE to understand their method of measurement a bit better, because some driver's may already measure very close to the 46 inch limit- yes TaylorMade I'm talking to you!).  None of us should be getting more than 1/8-1/4" in variation using the USGA method (and that's being generous)

 

TaylorMade says the head adds 1 inch

I measure it as more like adding 3/4 of an inch, but I'm going to use TM's inch moving forward. 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by clinkinfo

[Stuart_G]

13 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

 

Respectfully, That's a club building answer. 

 

Of course it is.   The question of playing length is a club building question.   And most of the people that are reading the post and answering the questions are going to be builders of some sort or another.

 

BTW - don't worry.  I don't find disagreements disrespectful.

 

 

13 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

There's only 1 playing length that matters, as singularly defined by the USGA in the length rule.

 

Maybe only 1 that matters to you (and that's fine) but that doesn't make the other methods any less relevant.  Or really more important to the question at hand, it doesn't make them less likely to intrude into the answers being posted on any thread in this forum and add to the confusion you find concerning.

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by Stuart_G

[clinkinfo]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Of course it is.   The question of playing length is a club building question.   And most of the people that are reading the post and answering the questions are going to be builders of some sort or another.

 

BTW - don't worry.  I don't find disagreements disrespectful.

 

 

 

Maybe only 1 that matters to you (and that's fine) but that doesn't make the other methods any less relevant.  Or really more important to the question at hand, it doesn't make them less likely to intrude into the answers being posted on any thread in this forum and add to the confusion you find concerning.

 

 

 

Your certainly entitled to your opinion.  But the "builder details" you are answering with have you missing the forest through the trees imo.  And I build clubs too, so I understand all the points your trying to make, but they just don't matter in this question.  I understand you think that's why everyone's numbers are different in this answer, but I disagree because what's being measured in this question is very clearly defined and eliminates most of those variables.

 

All the variations your referencing, all the oem differences, all the measuring differences .... They only exist because someone has decided to measure in a way inconsistent with the defined method of measuring playing length published by the usga.

 

Fast forward, the usga is now threatening to dramatically limit playing length of the driver, to a length that means some builds will be precariously close to the new limit.  So if you want to keep using a different method, or you want to keep measuring to a different spot on the club, that's fine this is America and it's your right to do that. But at the end of the day, you better also learn how to consistently measure it the way the USGA instructs you to measure it because that's the only measurement that's going to matter when they're checking the legality of your playing length.

 

Oem variations, builder variations, grip variations, adapter variations, ruler variations, eye variations.... They don't matter.  The playing length is defined in club rule 1c, and the method of measurement is included. If you choose to measure a different way, that's your right, but do so at your own risk.