Do you throw or twist?

[glk]

I'm not following. The right forearm is pronated at top of backswing. Nail_it has it correct.

Here is Tyler from his backswing arms step by step video

At top with pronation (rotating palm down)

Here is with no pronation.

[vwoody]

I tried this drill with my old release pattern. My right arm overtakes the left about 2-3 ft past impact. Good stuff. I had no issues keeping them separated with my new pattern.

Of course I was a tad biased goin in but I do think the drill is legit. Nice one.

[wagolfer7]

Yah your correct as usual @glk
I get mixed up with the terminology. It's not my thing. Flexion, Pronated, Supnated, Side Bends, - that's just not how I learned to swing better.
I was just trying to say that my right wrist has extension (?) in it. I have it more bent back like this. And I was just saying I know that's not the only way. You can have less or some like Wolff even have it more flat. I think what you do next and what you feel in that next move is the most important.
I was not referring to the forearm at all, but apparently the wrist don't pronate. It seems like that guy was asking if the palm is up. And my right wrist is bent back like below, that's what I was trying to say.
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/1O05RMCJD1A1/gty-820903096-92554107-e1502390439562.jpg[/img]

[glk]

Got it. To me extension is important in trail wrist - the old waiter holding a tray. Given the downswing is 250ms having little or none makes it really tuff - Wolff gets it with that big looping move that you can view as end of backswing or transition.

[wagolfer7]

I agree with that. I was mostly just chiming in on the sensation you can get with the move after that. Makes things very consistent if you can get that feeling / sensation going. It's just one of those things, that I have no idea how to explain it correctly. But I know it was a game-changer for me.

[glk]

An old iteach thread that in short says don’t worry about what the lead wrist looks like get that trail wrist extended.

[GreatStrike]

The sensation that is felt by incorporating the bent-back, hinged and twisted (stretched/pressured) right wrist technique into the golf swing is really a game-changer for most amateurs. Suddenly they have at their command explosive power and total control of their right forearm and wrist. All you have to do is just unhinge and the right forearm and wrist movement takes on a truly magical and explosive activity, with the impetus for it cleverly and neatly concealed in how the forearm/wrist was configured way back in time during the backswing. It's so mysterious that onlookers try to figure out what the player is doing in his impact zone, but the truth of the matter is - it was all structured and loaded-up long before impact during the backswing. If you were purposely trying to hide what a player does that incorporates this action, you couldn't do a better job of hiding it. The sad thing about it is - very few golfers learn about it and few instructors teach it. I guess if there is such a thing as a well-guarded trick or secret, this may fit that description.

This forearm/wrist action we've been discussing kinda reminds me of a much larger version of someone that flicks their finger - by pressuring the middle fingertip against the thumb and then releasing it. It may not have a 'twist' to it, but that finger is definitely loaded and ready to fire just like what we've been discussing about this forearm/wrist technique. That little appendage (finger) flicks so fast you can't even see it, and it has amazing power for such a simple little technique. When I see the typical golfer swing I get the [comparative] impression that they are only touching their fingertip to their thumb. The difference of the flick is like night and day. It's all about the technique!

If I'm not mistaken I think TGM does not support the concept of the right wrist cocking and uncocking. I personally can't imagine not cocking (and of course twisting) the right wrist in a full swing.

 

[Golfbeat]

Nail-it. Are you familiar with the work of Mike Emery? The concepts seem very familiar.https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1259984/mike-emerys-evolved-fundamentals-of-golf-review/p1

[GreatStrike]

No, I am not familiar with Mike Emery at all. I don't recall ever hearing his name. I only looked at the first two pages of the multi-page thread in which you provided a link. So, I really have no idea what his philosophy is about the golf swing.

[GreatStrike]

Not only is it rather difficult to explain even when it can be demonstrated in-person, but it's extremely difficult to explain using the written word. Some key words and phrases from various sources come to mind when discussing this forearm/wrist technique. (The technique really needs a name! Maybe someone can come up with a catchy name for it. "Trail Wrist Twist Loading' or 'TWTL'.) Anyway...

I have received some private messages expressing enthusiasm for this technique and some have asked specific questions or confirmation about various aspects of the technique. I'll try to address those items.

During the backswing is when the right wrist goes through its configuration of becoming bent-back, cocked and twisted. Once these three conditions have been made during the backswing the golf swing has become 'loaded'. The twisting part is what actually loads the forearm/wrist structure. The leverage of the golf club with its clubhead out at the end of the shaft can help make this final 'twisting' piece. The completed wrist configuration should feel as though it is loaded and uncomfortable to a degree. (It's uncomfortable because your right wrist is contorted and under a degree of tension.) Think of the right forearm and wrist like there is a very strong 5" long, beefy, flexible steel coil spring (image below for visual purposes) that is inside your lower forearm and wrist and it ends in the heel of your right hand. This imaginary spring is flexible so it can be bent to about 45 degrees and it is very strong. This spring is under full tension (fully loaded) when it is twisted only about 90 degrees. At the top of the backswing this imaginary spring is bent about 45° (which allows it to conform to the 45° angle of the bent-back wrist), and when the spring is twisted about 90° (which is about the amount of rotation the forearm makes) it is fully loaded or under max tension. In other words; It is locked and loaded! Once the TWTL is loaded in the backswing it then needs to be retained or sustained (a.k.a. 'stored') during the downswing until about waist high.

At about waist high (P6) in the downswing the momentum and weight of the clubhead will naturally uncock (unhinge) the right wrist, but this can also be an intentional physical action if so desired. When the right wrist uncocks something magical happens - the forearm and wrist unit goes through a transition of not only uncocking but it also releases or fires the imaginary spring that is fully loaded under great tension to untwist. No intentional physical action is necessary nor wanted for the untwisting to take place - just like no physical action from the golfer would be needed or helpful if a real spring was loaded and ready to be released. This untwisting brings about a phenomena in which the forearm and wrist rotates as a solid unit thanks to the tension of the twist that was sustained during the first half of the downswing. It truly is a loading and storing process until the release takes place...and then the benefit of storing that twist is the free power it produces at the right time. As the downswing progresses toward impact the untwisting process swivels/twirls/pivots/rolls the forearm/wrist unit and the bent-back wrist condition moves toward becoming neutral, but the wrist never moves beyond neutral until well past impact. The forearm/wrist swivel performs as a solid unit naturally as a result of the wrist having been bent-back. At around impact the untwisting movement of the forearm/wrist unit will look much like the movement of someone holding a screwdriver while unscrewing a screw.

Hopefully this explains in more detail what actually takes place, and the help of the imaginary spring helps in better understanding how the technique works.

 

[vwoody]

Question for everyone...my old flippy flappy right wrist wasn't great on full shots but good on partial wedge and pitch shots....what type of release do you advocate for these touch shots? I am worried if I go back to my old way of pitching it will seep back into the full shot game.

[Golfbeat]

I use flippy flap on chips and short pitches up to 40 yards or so. Further than that I like a bit more shaft lean.

[KMeloney]

Nail_it -- I'm not following the "twist" part. Seems to me that torquing the right wrist counterclockwise by/at the top would get the club pointing across the line. Is this what you're advocating (that crossing the line at the top is fine and all part of this)?

I just want to be sure you mean counterclockwise, and not clockwise.

Thanks.

Edit -- ...Or maybe you're suggesting that the twist torque comes from that torque being applied against the left hand and grip NOT letting you cross the line at the top.

[GreatStrike]

Most of us have heard some variation of the following phrases or analogies concerning aspects of the downswing:

Load it, Store it (a.k.a. Conserve it) & Release it • Conservation of Angular Momentum (a.k.a. COAM) • Sustain or Keep the Lag in your Wrist • Retain the Lag Angle • The Right Wrist Should Feel Uncomfortable in the Downswing • Like Pulling an Arrow Out of the Quiver • Start the Club's Grip Cap Moving Away from the Target • The Trail Elbow Moves in Front of the Hip • Shaft Lean

The bent-back, cocked and twisted trail wrist takes care of all these (above) important aspects and analogies.

I think I have provided enough information in my previous post to take care of explaining how the technique handles: Load/Store/Release, COAM, Sustaining the Wrist Lag, Retaining the Lag Angle, and the Right Wrist Should Feel Uncomfortable in the Downswing.

Here is my response for the last three items:

• The analogy of pulling an arrow out of a quiver needs a bit of explanation. The analogy is used to get the golfer to start moving the golf club horizontally (and rearward) away from the target. In other words, the grip cap is moved away from the target during the first hand movement of the downswing. For this to happen the archer's quiver (pouch that holds arrows) would need to be positioned horizontally on the golfer's back, not positioned more vertically as most archers would carry a quiver. That said, the right forearm/wrist technique we've been discussing naturally takes care of this desired golf club movement where the club starts moving directly backward (or away from the target) as the first move it makes. Another similar analogy would be if someone shot a golfer with an arrow, and the arrow entered one ear and protruded out the other ear (heaven forbid), removing the arrow would produce a movement in which the arrow is moved horizontally and rearward away from the golfer's target. Again, the right forearm/wrist technique provides this first club movement of the downswing very nicely.

• When incorporating the right forearm/wrist technique it will naturally bring the right elbow nicely in front of the right hip with no conscience effort or physical manipulation.

• Shaft lean is a necessity for a sound golf swing. The way golf clubs are designed there must be a degree of shaft lean to achieve proper impact dynamics. When incorporating the right forearm/wrist technique shaft lean is easily acquired due to the fact that the right wrist naturally retains some degree of extension (bent-back condition) through impact.

Hopefully the above has answered some of the remaining questions I received about 'the technique'...

[GreatStrike]

No, the golf club is cradled in the right hand and the club is perfectly aligned at the target, or as some like to say it is parallel left of the target.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wagolfer7]

In my own experience - this is just adding on to Monte's Cast Behind You move. He's talking about the same thing. I just believe in that video, he doesn't go into the process or positioning at the top. I think because there's a good amount of variance of PGA players at top position. Different things work, but we all know in the transition they shallow that club.
The motorcycle move, cast behind you, maintain lag, hold the angles, shallow the club - these are all connected in my opinion.
Again in my own personal experience - it happened mostly accidentally. I was trying different hinges and wrist sets at the top - I think at the time I was trying to get more flat (bowed) at the top than slightly cupped. I was also trying the Monte cast behind me move. Then I felt it. And once you feel it, you'll just keep trying to recreate it. Luckily I was able to kind of piece together what was allowing me to create that feeling. And that was the last piece of the puzzle for me, that really took my game to another level. And no this was not just one range session.
Just remember to others trying this. This isn't a fix-all move. If you have bad moves in your swing - this doesn't fix those. You can do this perfectly, but still not get good results because of other causes in your swing. @Nail_It not trying to take anything away from you on this. But in my opinion this isn't a "secret" or not talked about. I think you are just bringing a different perspective, view and explanation to it. Which is something I really enjoy about this forum. Hope you don't take it the wrong way, that I feel it's very similar to what other instructors, topics, etc have been on this forum.

[MPStrat]

I don’t prefer a scoopy release for anything other than a flop. I know a lot of good players do that, but around the greens I prefer to add loft by opening the face at address and taking my normal grip which is basically weakening the grip a ton and allows the same release as my full swing. I actually try to feel like the lead arm continues to supinate through the shot. As a drill you can try opening the face as much as possible and releasing like normal.

[GreatStrike]

wagolfer7 - I appreciate your participation and also your input on just how difficult it was for you to finally figure out this technique and add it to your golf swing. Clearly it did not come quickly or easily for you. As you said the technique was the last piece of the puzzle for you, and when you were finally (and luckily) able to figure it out, it was a game changer. I know that it surely must have been a game changer! But, I think that sentiment pretty much says the technique is, let's say 'obscure' - or one might say it is complicated, confusing, mysterious, concealed or hidden [in plain sight]. It certainly doesn't come easily, that's for sure...but why?

There are no secrets about the golf swing, but as I'm sure you will acknowledge there are some elements of the golf swing that don't come easily, even for the most devout enthusiast. That's why this technique is only a factor in the golf swings of a tiny percentage of amateur golfers. That, to me, means that even though this technique is very similar to what some golf instructors, topics, etc. have covered it still remains in my opinion a very occult technique. Otherwise the majority of amateurs would be single-digit or plus handicap golfers like you. But they aren't!

I'm personally not familiar with the 'Cast Behind You' video you have mentioned. It sounds like it might be similar to what Mike Malaska briefly touches on in a few of his videos about starting the club in the downswing by moving it horizontally behind you away from the target (i.e. pull the arrow from the quiver). Dunno. I only recall one video that even remotely discusses the technique - a really old lengthy video of Mike Austin (after he had his stroke) teaching Mike Dunaway, where Dunaway was hitting irons with just his right arm and Mike Austin was trying to get Dunaway to twist and untwist his right wrist with more vigor.

You are the perfect one to ask - Why do you think this 'game changer' technique is not talked about more often, and explained in great detail, and why is it not better promoted, and not elevated to a higher level of swing importance?

Again, thanks for your participation and input. I appreciate it.

[JerkChicken]

Hey guys, give me the short version, what are we throwing and what are we twisting?

[Golfbeat]

Don't be lazy, Jerk.

 

[JerkChicken]

Oh, so it's not throwing a disc or twisting a knee? Nope, too many long posts...

[GreatStrike]

PJ1120 - I read a post from you that was posted years ago in a discussion about the analogy of pulling a wagon or pulling a rope laying on the ground in a straight line in which it was agreed upon that to 'pull' in a golf swing requires that the lead arm must be used because if the right arm was used it would be a pushing force. Have you ever considered that you can use the right arm to pull that wagon or pull that rope in a straight line from left to right? As long as the load (e.g. wagon, rope or clubhead) is 'behind' the force it is a 'pulling' action, not a pushing action. To put it another way, as long as the force is 'ahead' of the load (e.g. wagon. rope or clubhead) the force is a pulling force. All that said, being a swinger or hitter (primarily using one side versus the other) to power and control the golf swing is very much purely an individual thing in my opinion. It doesn't necessarily coincide with which side is your dominant side. Some people are just naturally DNA'd to use one side better than the other - and what I mean by that is that some right-side dominant people are better able to use their left side (including arm/wrist/hand) in their golf swing whereas other right-sided people are better served by using their right side (including arm/wrist/hand). Each person needs to figure out what works best for them as a unique individual. But as I was saying earlier, if you are a right-side dominant golfer that uses primarily their right side, that action does not mean that you are pushing...because if that load (clubhead) is behind the right hand force it is a 'pulling' force. When you throw a baseball it too is a pulling motion...because the ball is behind the elbow and wrist as its speed is built-up - it is released from the fingertips that holds the ball just a nanosecond after the baseball passes the arm. If you try to push a baseball it isn't going anywhere. If you try pushing a rope it ain't gonna be pushed in a straight line. And, if you have ever tried pushing a child's Red Ryder wagon, it's hard to get it to travel in a straight line.

I remembered your post (quoted above) and I just wanted to address my opinion that using either can be (should be) a pulling action...and that maybe thinking about it differently may help you in some way.

[Ezgolfer]

Nail it

Is this a good training device (Greg Norman secret) for what you are describing . Thanks

[GreatStrike]

Ezgolfer,

Greg Norman's 'The Secret' golf training aid is a good training aid to help teach golfers to retain some degree of bent-back right wrist condition during the downswing. The problem with The Secret training aid in my view is that it doesn't allow for the bent-back wrist condition to change the degree of angle. If, for example, a golfer's maximum bent-back right wrist condition is [say] 60° at transition or very early downswing, during the downswing that angle will reduce somewhat so that by the time it reaches impact the wrist angle is [say] 15°, which coincides with the amount of shaft lean. 'The Secret' training aid is slightly flexible (as I recall), but its plastic or nylon form is molded where the angle is set into the device at a particular degree of angle, which in my opinion does not bode well for full swings. For chipping and little pitch shots where the wrist angle in the backswing doesn't reach anywhere close to maximum nor does it completely go to neutral, I think the aid is ideal. That said, hopefully the golfer will learn the benefit of having a bent-back right wrist and will incorporate it into their full swing, but without using the training aid.

As an aside, 'The Secret' training aid has a strap (as I recall) that also pulls back and clasps the right forefinger so the golfer learning to swing a golf club doesn't pressure the shaft with the right forefinger because doing so often causes the golfer to flip and breakdown (extension) their left wrist. BUT, like so many things pertaining to the golf swing - if the golfer uses his right hand/wrist in a certain way that right hand forefinger is not a liability at all but instead the forefinger's first knuckle can be an ominous weapon in a good way to punish that golf ball. This is what I have been discussing recently about using the right wrist in a certain way which allows the right hand to be employed in a good and powerful way.

[moehogan]

Yep, just like the TGM boys say, Pressure Point (PP) #3 can turn into a real s***show without the correct application of PP#1.

[GreatStrike]

Ezgolfer,

The technique I am trying to describe is extremely difficult when using the written word to explain it, and can be difficult even in an in-person setting. I'll add some additional details in hopes more people will understand it.

First, it is a right wrist technique that would be used primarily by golfers that feel employing their stronger and much higher degree of dexterity dominant right arm to power and control their golf swing is the better choice versus using their left arm. Many golfers find it next to impossible to use their weaker and less proficient non-dominant left side to pull the golf club through impact with a square clubface. The left side pulling method is not for everybody!

One of the things many (probably most) golfers attempting to use their non-dominant left side quickly learns is that their lead or left wrist doesn't want to play nicely in handling four extremely important duties - (1) being able to naturally and easily retain or sustain the lag angle of the lead arm and clubshaft without casting/releasing too early, (2) being able to naturally and easily square the clubface through impact, (3) being able to naturally and easily achieve desirable shaft lean through impact, and (4) to apply the maximum clubhead speed and force they are physically capable of to compress the golf ball, all while not overtaxing their body and using natural body forces and concepts.

In a recent previous post I touched on how primarily using the right arm/hand to swing a golf club is [also] a 'pulling' action, and it is not a pushing action that some people may think it is. This pulling action with the right side is the principle or basis of the right arm/wrist/twist technique that I am trying to communicate. If you have ever paid much attention to an experienced painter or auto pinstripe expert they always 'pull' (never push) their brush to apply the paint, and when exacting precise detail is needed they always use their dominant hand because it has by far the best dexterity, and it is commonplace for them to purposely contort their wrist, hand and fingers in such a way that best applies the exact force and the exact direction which is needed. Much like how the pinstripe expert purposely contorts his dominant wrist/hand/fingers as he holds his paint brush in a special way to apply the perfect pinstripe, executing the right wrist/hand twist technique in the golf swing requires that the wrist and hand be contorted as well...and the 'twist' part is what contorts it.

This twist contortion takes place in the final movement of the wrist cock. This final wrist movement (twist) is kinda like latching the hammer on a revolver because the latching is the last action in the process, or is kinda like pulling the string of a compound archer bow over-the-cam because that consolation of getting on the other side of the cam is the last action in the process. The twist part of the wrist/hand/twist technique is the final action in the process of the wrist cock procedure. The wrist cock process is made up of right wrist bending-back, right wrist cocking or hinging, and (finally as the last action) a further twisting of the right hand where the right hand is rolled or twisted so the palm points more skyward in lieu of just pointing outward. The final 'twisting' where the palm is twisted to face more skyward completes the wrist cock set process and is similar to the analogy of setting or latching the hammer on a revolver. The right wrist is now locked and loaded - ready to fire! It is locked (hammer pulled back and ready to fire) and in order to fire it requires only one thing to take place - that one thing is the right wrist to uncock (unhinge). That uncocking is now fully and easily retained until either the club head's weight naturally uncocks the right wrist or the golfer physically uncocks it earlier.

Most golfers find that at the top of their backswing their right wrist, while it may be bent-back and cocked/hinged, does not have the final 'twist' that employs a [so-called] latching segment to it and is therefore very likely to unload (angles open up) way early in the downswing. In other words the right wrist lacks a [so-called] latching component or segment in the top of the backswing wrist set process. This latching component naturally and easily retains or sustains the lag angle with bent-back wrist until around waist high where the club head's weight will naturally uncock the right wrist. When the twist technique is executed correctly the uncocking naturally happens around waist high and this is what fires (unlatches) the hammer and something magically and explosively automatically happens.! The golf club releases in a flail like action, and the right wrist swivels/pivots/twirls through impact as it retains a bent-back condition.

The right wrist technique requires that it be maximally cocked at the top of the backswing so there is greater than a 90° angle between the right forearm and clubshaft, it's an acute angle. It's a sensation, a feeling - a sense that the right wrist has stretched beyond maximum angles at the top of the backswing. It's difficult to visually see even in elite golf swings, but more visibly prevalent in the golf swing of players that use their right side more than the left side. Players like Ben Hogan, Tiger Woods, Lee Westwood, Rory McIlroy, Ernie Els, Charl Schwartzel, Zach Johnson oftentimes display signs of a strained, tightened tension and contorted right wrist that is maximally cocked with an acute angle. You'll notice most of the players have something else in common - their left wrist is likely to display no more than a neutral condition at the top of their backswing, and oftentimes their left wrist is cupped to some degree, but that is no concern because during the release phase the right wrist retains its bent-back form and the left wrist becomes flat (if not slightly bowed) through impact. The left wrist slightly cupped condition at the top is usually a tell-tale sign that the golfer is keying more on his right side (forearm/wrist/hand) to power and control his golf club during his golf swing.

 

 

 

[baudi]

If I recall correctly: The Secret is developed by John Schlee. Greg Norman bought the rights.

The trail arm is a far more complex move than the lead arm. The best way I like to practice and learn the trail arm move is with the x-zylo (flying gyroscope) from a ToS in side-on position.  From ToS the trail arm starts with a combination of external rotation for the upper arm; extension for the fore arm and supination for the right wrist. I want the club head to work outward and strive for the widest radius possible and create gradual angular velocity. Hence I do not care for buzz words like 'Lag' or 'flatten the club' (which may cause to narrow the radius imo) Is it fool proof? No. Will I get the most torque? (=in my words: power/chs ratio) Probably not. However it provides a concept I can cling on to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wagolfer7]

You are the perfect one to ask - Why do you think this 'game changer' technique is not talked about more often, and explained in great detail, and why is it not better promoted, and not elevated to a higher level of swing importance?I already answered this. I think it is talked about plenty.

And I think there are a bunch of other things I would address in someone's golf swing before this. Most golfers that try to apply this - it will not improve their game. For me - it just feels / seems that it helps me square up the club more consistently. Instead of just rotating hard through - it felt I finally had another move with the club to get it in position and hit it from the inside. For most golfers - there are other things that would prevent this from having success. How you move the rest of your body, in my opinion, needs to be focused on first.

And again - I would say that Monte got me going on this. He explained the wrists movements - it just took me about 1 1/2 years after that - to be able to understand it for myself. I think it's just like a lot of other things in golf. You can know something - that's maybe 1/3rd of the battle. But being able to feel it and do it correctly, that's something else entirely.

I don't follow or subscribe to GG's stuff. But looking at his students doing half swings - it looks like they have been taught the same thing.

This is my just opinion on it. In my golf journey - it was one of the last pieces to click. And I think that's mostly because - we are result orientated. If you aren't getting results - you aren't going to keep grinding at it. I had to have other parts of the golf swing going first - before I was able to get the correct feels with this move.

[GreatStrike]

Yes, I agree that golfers need to have a reasonably sound golf swing before this 'technique' is considered. However, I think virtually all amateurs deal with a short list of the same problems they simply cannot overcome (e.g. early release/casting, flipping/lead wrist extension, open clubface/inability to square the face, weak lead arm doesn't perform as well as it should, etc.) regardless of how long they have played the game or how sound their golf swing otherwise happens to be. What I find intriguing in your case is that even after the wrist movement was explained to you, it still took you 1½ years to be able to really understand it and to finally be able to feel it and do it correctly.

No doubt some people are able to feel it and pick it up soon after first trying and others never do...much like learning to cast when fly fishing, or learning to rope or lasso, or baton twirling, or learning to get a gyro ball wrist exerciser going, or learning to throw a baseball with heat, or learning to throw a football that spirals perfectly, or learning to throw darts, or learning to bowl.

If you breakdown the golf swing which requires the golfer to hold the golf club in the hands you soon realize that if the movements of the forearms, wrists, hands and fingers don't move correctly, regardless of how well the rest of the body might perform, the golf swing isn't going to work very well. I think most golfers too often look in the wrong place to correct or help their ability to swing a golf swing.

[chipa]

Just recently in my seemingly never ending search for understanding the swing that I have had off and on for many years(max. swing speed 128) I saw a Paul Azinger video an a light flicked on, specifically his takeaway. Then recently I saw Tony Finau and liked his setup and takeaway, especially his loaded right side, right hand position, and early turning of the left hand and then after a day or so of practicing I have been getting some pretty good results - 98 with the hybrid 2. Just like with my best swings over the years my left wrist rotates through impact just like it does on the takeaway, but I can never feel it because all I can feel is my right hand coming through, like I'm slapping through the ball, at that point the left hand is just trying to hold on nothing more. The biggest drive I ever had that I confirmed with Google Maps in Orlando was about 310 yards of carry with a slight fade.