Do you throw or twist?

[slytown]

In reference to the original post, I think its a combination of both to varying degrees. Everyone needs some degree of twisting in order to reduce face rotation and create some separation power. Only getting to the ball with extension and straight arms would make it difficult to create power and keep the face square. However, every player needs to have extension and release. Without it you not only risk your back but make it very difficult to not shank the ball. 

 

Whichever emphasis creates centered strikes, that's what players should go for.  

[CSagan]

 

Don't want to lose arm structure, might end up top 5 in the world.

[Djmc25]

On 3/14/2024 at 12:49 PM, GreatStrike said:

 

@Djmc25 - A word of warning - be careful not to interject a swinger's backswing pivot rotation or downswing pivot rotation when using a dominant right-side swing. It's like trying to mix oil and water - it doesn't work out well!  There is no torso pivot rotation like a swinger. The clubhead is not thrown into orbit during the downswing by the golfer's pivot rotation like with a swinger, so don't let a habit of making a pivot rotation take place when it's not needed and doing so is actually damaging if it is interjected, whether intentionally or by habit.

 

Most dominate-side golfers don't even have to think about or deal with a backstroke or downstroke pivot because the right arm and shoulder is their body pivot! It makes their dominate-side golf swing easy to learn and easy to perform correctly with tremendous consistency and excellent results.

 

For a golfer using their dominant right side, think of the downstroke pivot being your right shoulder moving slightly down plane into position (closer to the ball) as a platform to push against (like  a starting block) in preparation to thrust your right arm 'straight out' from the shoulder. Lanny Wadkins was a big proponent of pivoting his right shoulder a bit down plane in preparation for the outward piston launch of his right arm by the triceps. Over the years many tour player tournament announcers have mentioned it.  Moving the right shoulder slightly down plane closer to the ball prevents the golfer from running out of right arm before impact and it ideally and positively induces an automatic weight shift and proper kinematic sequencing - something swingers often have a very difficult time executing. 

 

What's nice and effective with a hitter's (dominant side) golf swing is the golfer's large muscles are reacting to what the golfer wants his hands to precisely do which is how our body and mind work best, whereas with a swinger's (non-dominant side) golf swing the golfer is compelled to getting the large muscles to pivot and rotate his body to move his hands and arms in a precise manner, which is quite ineffective and instinctively causes most golfers to try to use their stronger dominant hand which usually causes all sorts of problems as it is added to the swinger's torso pivot rotation - making a discombobulated blend of incompatible components of both golf swing methods which is the nemesis of almost all amateur golfers. But causing this incompatibility is especially the case for those golfers that choose to swing the golf club with their weaker, less coordinated, less skilled side as opposed to using their dominant side.  

 

The right shoulder pivots slightly down plane and the right arm triceps straightens the right arm outward like a piston applying push force onto the left hand thumb knuckle which literally drives the arms-club structure in a powerful golf swing. 

 

 

 

 

I finally understand what you’re saying and it’s the crux of my swing feel. The right arm is performing a task (skipping a rock for shorter clubs, throwing a football for longer) over my intermediate point. The body reacts by getting out of the way. Makes sense why if I feel like I rotate I end up super stuck. 

[GreatStrike]

9 hours ago, Djmc25 said:

I finally understand what you’re saying and it’s the crux of my swing feel. The right arm is performing a task (skipping a rock for shorter clubs, throwing a football for longer) over my intermediate point. The body reacts by getting out of the way. Makes sense why if I feel like I rotate I end up super stuck. 

 

Bingo, exactly!  I'm glad it makes sense! Perfectly corroborated and understood... 👍

 

Your right arm is used to activate the primary lever, which is the left arm plus the club as a whole. Fundamentally, pushing with the right arm creates a pulling action of the left arm. It's much like the horse that pushes into its harness collar to create a pulling action on a wagon - a very effective way for a horse to pull the wagon. For a right-side dominant golfer playing right-handed, it's a more effective way to swing a golf club than trying to swing and control the club primarily with the weaker, less-skilled, non-dominate left arm. 

 

 

In the image below these horses are pushing into/against the ground to push into their harness collars which provides a pulling action of the wagon to take place. The horses push as a procedure or a system used to pull.  In other words, pushing accomplishes a pulling reaction. 

 

 

In much the same way as a horse that pushes into its harness collar to pull a wagon, a golfer can use his trail arm in a hitting action golf swing technique. He extends his trail arm (see video and image below) as a procedure (or a system) that activates a pulling action of the left hand that pulls the golf club in a strong curved motion in the downstroke. Pushing literally activates a pulling action.

 

 

The relationship between your hands on the grip is called 'extensor action'. The is extremely important since the left arm is kept straight by this outward push pressure of the right palm (lifeline) against the big knuckle of the the left thumb. Without extensor action the left arm becomes slack and unstable, losing the structure it must have.

 

With extensor action the length of the radii created by the left arm and the club remains the same. So, as long as the golfer's body is properly aligned and remains balanced and stable the axis of rotation is positioned in three dimensions and doesn't vary as the swing is made - therefore, the club must inevitably make good contact with the ball. Extensor action is vital to join the hands together and it allows the two arms to work together as a solid structure. As long as a steady outward pressure against the thumb is maintained, the left arm will remain straight and will be tension-free from address to the top of the back swing, and returning to impact. During the downswing into the follow through centrifugal force takes over and keeps the left arm straight until the increasing momentum of the club head causes the left elbow to fold. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[GreatStrike]

 

Add this Martin Hall video to the list of supporting validation for extensor action to solidify the arms structure. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[Djmc25]

6 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

Bingo, exactly!  I'm glad it makes sense! Perfectly corroborated and understood... 👍

 

Your right arm is used to activate the primary lever, which is the left arm plus the club as a whole. Fundamentally, pushing with the right arm creates a pulling action of the left arm. It's much like the horse that pushes into its harness collar to create a pulling action on a wagon - a very effective way for a horse to pull the wagon. For a right-side dominant golfer playing right-handed, it's a more effective way to swing a golf club than trying to swing and control the club primarily with the weaker, less-skilled, non-dominate left arm. 

 

 

In the image below these horses are pushing into/against the ground to push into their harness collars which provides a pulling action of the wagon to take place. The horses push as a procedure or a system used to pull.  In other words, pushing accomplishes a pulling reaction. 

 

 

In much the same way as a horse that pushes into its harness collar to pull a wagon, a golfer can use his trail arm in a hitting action golf swing technique. He extends his trail arm (see video and image below) as a procedure (or a system) that activates a pulling action of the left hand that pulls the golf club in a strong curved motion in the downstroke. Pushing literally activates a pulling action.

 

 

The relationship between your hands on the grip is called 'extensor action'. The is extremely important since the left arm is kept straight by this outward push pressure of the right palm (lifeline) against the big knuckle of the the left thumb. Without extensor action the left arm becomes slack and unstable, losing the structure it must have.

 

With extensor action the length of the radii created by the left arm and the club remains the same. So, as long as the golfer's body is properly aligned and remains balanced and stable the axis of rotation is positioned in three dimensions and doesn't vary as the wing is made - therefore, the club must inevitably make good contact with the ball. Extensor action is vital to join the hands together and it allows the two arms to work together as a solid structure. As long as a steady outward pressure against the thumb is maintained, the left arm will remain straight and will be tension-free from address to the top of the back swing, and returning to impact. During the downswing into the follow through centrifugal force takes over and keeps the left arm straight until the increasing momentum of the club head causes the left elbow to fold. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That video is great. I always hit my best shots by trying to throw from a wide arc back, and staying locked into my target vs making the ball my target. 
 

By going “out there” my left knee stays bent a little longer which delays extension in both my lower half and upper half. If I get ball bound I throw my angle away behind me at the ball, early extend both upper and lower body, and lose all that leverage that’s stored by the wide backswing arc

 

Wide throws at my target checks all those boxes for me, and keeps my swing feeling athletic. 
 

I love the horse analogy too, I’ve done strongman style workouts w the harnass on, the push initiating the pull clicks very well. Cheers!

[GreatStrike]

19 hours ago, Djmc25 said:

That video is great. I always hit my best shots by trying to throw from a wide arc back, and staying locked into my target vs making the ball my target. 
 

By going “out there” my left knee stays bent a little longer which delays extension in both my lower half and upper half. If I get ball bound I throw my angle away behind me at the ball, early extend both upper and lower body, and lose all that leverage that’s stored by the wide backswing arc

 

Wide throws at my target checks all those boxes for me, and keeps my swing feeling athletic. 
 

I love the horse analogy too, I’ve done strongman style workouts w the harnass on, the push initiating the pull clicks very well. Cheers!

 

Wonderful feedback, Djmc25!  Thank you! 👍

 

One last point for you:  

 

It's important to note that shoulder torque (movement) gets the hands started moving in a curved circular arc. This curved circular arc motion is what provides the main power for the swing. The lion's share of shoulder torque is provided with the straightening of the right arm. But to get the platform ready for launching the right arm extensor action - just a little mini-pivot move of the right shoulder down-plane a microsecond before launching the right arm piston will assure the arms structure and golf club gets activated in the powerful curved circular arc motion.  It's just a little move, but an important one nevertheless... You can actually think of the mini-shoulder pivot move down-plane as 'the only pivot' because additional body pivoting will happen automatically with the trail arm extensor action. There's also something very important this tiny shoulder pivot accomplishes - it pivots the golfer's right hip just enough providing the golfer with a perfect kinematic sequence - something a left-side pulling golfer almost always fails to achieve. This perfect kinematic sequence can really only happen when the golfer has primarily a trail side dominant swing. How many golfers have good kinematic sequencing when throwing a ball right-handed but can't when swinging a golf club primarily with their lead side? Go figure!                  

 

Almost all instruction today focuses on the left arm pull, but there is no fundamental reason why a left arm pull is necessary to use. Just like the left-arm pull, the right-arm push has a component of its force that will move the hands along that circular arc. The dominant side of the body is stronger, so for a right-handed golfer that means you want the right side and the right arm and hand to be dominant swinging the club.

 

Current instruction teaches a swing where left-arm pull is both the powering and the controlling factor in the swing - in this left-arm pull technique the major function of the right arm is to support the action of the left, and otherwise just not to get in the way. 

 

A push is stronger than a pull. Most handicap golfers don't know this and have never even thought much about it - most strong moves in sports are more push than pull. It's a statistical fact that upper body musculature used for pushing are approximately 1.5–2.7 times stronger than the musculature involved for pulling in recreational activity. So we should expect this to work for golf as well. However, current instruction still teaches a swing that is much more pull-oriented. No wonder it feels weak to most right-handed golfers to pull on a golf club with their non-dominant left arm! It only makes sense to drive a tensioned arm structure and golf club into a powerful curved motion arc by using pushing extensor action of the strong dominant right arm.

 

PS - Don't make the mistake of trying to drive the trail arm toward the target. The right arm should extend more straight out from the shoulder in the direction the chest is pointing. The mini-pivot will start the arms/club structure to travel in a curved circular arc that will align perfectly for the clubhead to run into the ball.      

 

 

 

  

Edited March 29, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[GreatStrike]

This video will likely be of interest if you are a right-side dominant golfer and considering using your trail arm to your advantage.     

 

 

[GreatStrike]

Have you tried hitting a Martin Chuck Tour Striker golf club? Good luck compressing the ball with it using a lead-side pulling golf swing!

 

 

It's easy to compress the ball with a Tour Striker golf club off a bare tight lie with a dominant trail-side right arm extensor push-out golf swing... Forward shaft lean, spin loft delofted, increased smash factor.  It's not going to happen for 99% of amateur golfers trying to follow conventional golf swing instruction.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[GreatStrike]

Watch how Taly Williams' trail arm push-out extensor action drives his arms/club structure in a circular curved motion arc. 

 

  

[iacas]

5 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

Good luck compressing the ball with it using a lead-side pulling golf swing!

 

It's easy to compress the ball with a Tour Striker golf club off a bare tight lie with a dominant trail-side right arm extensor push-out golf swing... Forward shaft lean, spin loft delofted, increased smash factor.  It's not going to happen for 99% of amateur golfers trying to follow conventional golf swing instruction.

Let’s see some good video of you hitting one.

 

We had a “hitter” at an instructor training thing in Orlando once. Guy - an instructor taking our class - was trying his best but couldn’t hit the ground in the right spot. Unfortunately that spot he could hit was about 4” behind the ball.

 

Tour players compress the ball. They’re not “hitters.” And I mean that beyond the normal “nobody is a hitter or a swinger” reasoning.

 

What you say you can’t actually defend. Like your Paige takes.

[Nels55]

7 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

It's easy to compress the ball with a Tour Striker golf club off a bare tight lie with a dominant trail-side right arm extensor push-out golf swing... Forward shaft lean, spin loft delofted, increased smash factor.  It's not going to happen for 99% of amateur golfers trying to follow conventional golf swing instruction.    

I have a couple of tour striker clubs and I have no problem compressing the ball with a lead arm focus or a trail arm focus.  

 

Your take on conventional golf swing instruction is not valid.  I don't know why you keep saying things like that?  What's the point?  The best players in the world are instructed by conventional teachers and I can assure you that they have no problem hitting tour striker clubs off of tight lies.  I suggest that instead of bashing other instructors you simply post your beliefs and leave it at that.

[DTM14]

On 3/14/2024 at 5:49 PM, GreatStrike said:

 

@Djmc25 - A word of warning - be careful not to interject a swinger's backswing pivot rotation or downswing pivot rotation when using a dominant right-side swing. It's like trying to mix oil and water - it doesn't work out well!  There is no torso pivot rotation like a swinger. The clubhead is not thrown into orbit during the downswing by the golfer's pivot rotation like with a swinger, so don't let a habit of making a pivot rotation take place when it's not needed and doing so is actually damaging if it is interjected, whether intentionally or by habit.

 

Most dominate-side golfers don't even have to think about or deal with a backstroke or downstroke pivot because the right arm and shoulder is their body pivot! It makes their dominate-side golf swing easy to learn and easy to perform correctly with tremendous consistency and excellent results.

 

For a golfer using their dominant right side, think of the downstroke pivot being your right shoulder moving slightly down plane into position (closer to the ball) as a platform to push against (like  a starting block) in preparation to thrust your right arm 'straight out' from the shoulder. Lanny Wadkins was a big proponent of pivoting his right shoulder a bit down plane in preparation for the outward piston launch of his right arm by the triceps. Over the years many tour player tournament announcers have mentioned it.  Moving the right shoulder slightly down plane closer to the ball prevents the golfer from running out of right arm before impact and it ideally and positively induces an automatic weight shift and proper kinematic sequencing - something swingers often have a very difficult time executing. 

 

What's nice and effective with a hitter's (dominant side) golf swing is the golfer's large muscles are reacting to what the golfer wants his hands to precisely do which is how our body and mind work best, whereas with a swinger's (non-dominant side) golf swing the golfer is compelled to getting the large muscles to pivot and rotate his body to move his hands and arms in a precise manner, which is quite ineffective and instinctively causes most golfers to try to use their stronger dominant hand which usually causes all sorts of problems as it is added to the swinger's torso pivot rotation - making a discombobulated blend of incompatible components of both golf swing methods which is the nemesis of almost all amateur golfers. But causing this incompatibility is especially the case for those golfers that choose to swing the golf club with their weaker, less coordinated, less skilled side as opposed to using their dominant side.  

 

The right shoulder pivots slightly down plane and the right arm triceps straightens the right arm outward like a piston applying push force onto the left hand thumb knuckle which literally drives the arms-club structure in a powerful golf swing. 

 

 

 

 

 

@GreatStrike @Djmc25

 

Thank you for the visuals and again the detailed explanation and discussion . As I wrote before I am adapting to a right-side dominant/hitting golf swing using the above mechanical principles with the right shoulder as pivot etc. I am very happy with the results so far as I feel more comfortable from set-up all the way through impact while putting less strain on my body. Everything is more aligned to my natural body-dominance tendencies. I now hit my irons fairly consistently (5i - SW). 

However, I currently still struggle a bit translating/applying the above to my driver and my 3 and 4 hybrids (the longer clubs in my bag). I feel very steep coming in yet produce a ball flight that is fairly low so I must be definitely hitting down on the ball. On the range I hit behind here and there when I try to swing hard. 

How do you apply the above principles of a right-side dominant / hitting golf swing to the longer clubs in your bag that need a shallower club path? Looking at Tiger above from the face-on view he seems to be pulling BOTH arms AND right shoulder down at the same time with the driver to hit up on the ball. It seems he does not straighten the right elbow to drive the delivery into impact until he is almost at impact. 

I would be interested to hear your take on the nuances when it comes to a right-side dominant swing going from an iron to the driver. What's different, what not? 

 

Edited March 30, 2024 by DTM14

[Djmc25]

15 minutes ago, DTM14 said:

 

@GreatStrike @Djmc25

 

Thank you for the visuals and again the detailed explanation and discussion . As I wrote before I am adapting to a right-side dominant/hitting golf swing using the above mechanical principles with the right shoulder as pivot etc. I am very happy with the results so far as I feel more comfortable from set-up all the way through impact while putting less strain on my body. Everything is more aligned to my natural body-dominance tendencies. I now hit my irons fairly consistently (5i - SW). 

However, I currently still struggle a bit translating/applying the above to my driver and my 3 and 4 hybrids (the longer clubs in my bag). I feel very steep coming in yet produce a ball flight that is fairly low so I must be definitely hitting down on the ball. On the range I hit behind here and there when I try to swing hard. 

How do you apply the above principles of a right-side dominant / hitting golf swing to the longer clubs in your bag that need a shallower club path? Looking at Tiger above from the face-on view he seems to be pulling BOTH arms AND right shoulder down at the same time with the driver to hit up on the ball. It seems he does not straighten the right elbow to drive the delivery into impact until he is almost at impact. 

I would be interested to hear your take on the nuances when it comes to a right-side dominant swing going from an iron to the driver. What's different, what not? 

 

I don’t agree verbatim with Great Strike, but for my longer clubs I feel a longer throw. 
 

wedges and short irons is more of a short stop throw to first base

 

4iron, woods, driver is more of a javelin throw or a deep football throw. 
 

I make sure I stay centered behind the ball, pressure from my right foot to my left foot to stay bolted to the ground, then it’s just a longer gather as I am trying to throw the clubhead further out towards my target. 
 

The crossover sport example would be trying to throw a ball to somebody 20 feet away vs 100 feet. You’d naturally use a longer load up phrase and a longer follow through. I get in trouble when my wedge swing gets to my driver. I feel quick and out of sequence. 
 

If I feel like I’m stepping and really loading up for a big throw (not with more effort, just with more power) then the sequencing and shallowness handles itself. 
 

my avg AOA through my bad

 

7-Wedge: -4.0

4-6 iron: -2.5 - 3 range

driving iron : -1.5 ish

3 wood : -0.5 ish

driver: +2-4

 

plenty shallow where I want to be

 

This is mostly driven by ball position and allowing my club to complete the backswing fully before I throw it to my target. 

[GreatStrike]

8 hours ago, DTM14 said:

 

@GreatStrike @Djmc25

 

Thank you for the visuals and again the detailed explanation and discussion . As I wrote before I am adapting to a right-side dominant/hitting golf swing using the above mechanical principles with the right shoulder as pivot etc. I am very happy with the results so far as I feel more comfortable from set-up all the way through impact while putting less strain on my body. Everything is more aligned to my natural body-dominance tendencies. I now hit my irons fairly consistently (5i - SW). 

However, I currently still struggle a bit translating/applying the above to my driver and my 3 and 4 hybrids (the longer clubs in my bag). I feel very steep coming in yet produce a ball flight that is fairly low so I must be definitely hitting down on the ball. On the range I hit behind here and there when I try to swing hard. 

How do you apply the above principles of a right-side dominant / hitting golf swing to the longer clubs in your bag that need a shallower club path? Looking at Tiger above from the face-on view he seems to be pulling BOTH arms AND right shoulder down at the same time with the driver to hit up on the ball. It seems he does not straighten the right elbow to drive the delivery into impact until he is almost at impact. 

I would be interested to hear your take on the nuances when it comes to a right-side dominant swing going from an iron to the driver. What's different, what not? 

 

 

@DTM14 - I'm glad to hear that you are 'very happy with the results...'

 

Keep in mind that with your irons you'll want significant forward shaft lean which means you'll likely have a hefty degree of trail wrist bend through impact. For longer clubs you'll still want a descending angle of attack but not quite as much forward shaft lean, which means you can back-off on the amount of wrist bend while still maintaining the trail arm push-out to sustain a solid arms/club structure. As long as the arms are tensioned with the trail arm straightening the swing arc radius of the clubhead has an orbit that will repeat. It shouldn't be too difficult to achieve a shallower club path - - and with a stronger lead leg posting or a parametric pull-up or a slight change in ball positioning should give you the 'hit up' degree you're after with the driver. You shouldn't need any swing alteration for the hybrids. 

 

Continue to enjoy and improve! Play good...

 

 

 

        

Edited March 31, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[DTM14]

6 hours ago, Djmc25 said:

I don’t agree verbatim with Great Strike, but for my longer clubs I feel a longer throw. 
 

wedges and short irons is more of a short stop throw to first base

 

4iron, woods, driver is more of a javelin throw or a deep football throw. 
 

I make sure I stay centered behind the ball, pressure from my right foot to my left foot to stay bolted to the ground, then it’s just a longer gather as I am trying to throw the clubhead further out towards my target. 
 

The crossover sport example would be trying to throw a ball to somebody 20 feet away vs 100 feet. You’d naturally use a longer load up phrase and a longer follow through. I get in trouble when my wedge swing gets to my driver. I feel quick and out of sequence. 
 

If I feel like I’m stepping and really loading up for a big throw (not with more effort, just with more power) then the sequencing and shallowness handles itself. 
 

my avg AOA through my bad

 

7-Wedge: -4.0

4-6 iron: -2.5 - 3 range

driving iron : -1.5 ish

3 wood : -0.5 ish

driver: +2-4

 

plenty shallow where I want to be

 

This is mostly driven by ball position and allowing my club to complete the backswing fully before I throw it to my target. 

 

@Djmc25

Thanks for your insights with regards to your "throwing feels". 

However that is one "feel" analogy that I have a hard time with. I have thrown footballs back in the day; however those are all overhead/over-shoulder throw mechanics. If I try to "throw" in a golf swing for me it would be more the "skipping the rock" / "throwing the ball down at my right foot" analogy. 

Having played mostly tennis the last twenty years  I would equate your centered turn behind the ball to a modern tennis forehand - where you then "sliing" the racquet at the ball. The long the load-up phase (aka the bigger the turn) the longer the follow-through. Very similar. However, as I am right-eye dominant and starting to lack some age-related flexibility in the upper thorassic spine, the more I turn my shoulders the more I lose sight of the ball and/or delivery line - in tennis and in golf. Even in tennis I have to keep my feet / hips / head at least semi-open on the forehand side to have both eyes on the ball.

For my golf swing I have adopted an impact fix address position where my head is more behind the ball so I have a chance at a longer load-up turn WHILE still seeing the ball with my (right) dominant eye.

At the moment it just does not translate well to the longer clubs. My wife is plays right-sided but is left-eye dominant. Her best clubs are the driver and fairway woods... Makes sense in a way. 
       

Edited March 30, 2024 by DTM14

[Djmc25]

4 hours ago, DTM14 said:

 

@Djmc25

Thanks for your insights with regards to your "throwing feels". 

However that is one "feel" analogy that I have a hard time with. I have thrown footballs back in the day; however those are all overhead/over-shoulder throw mechanics. If I try to "throw" in a golf swing for me it would be more the "skipping the rock" / "throwing the ball down at my right foot" analogy. 

Having played mostly tennis the last twenty years  I would equate your centered turn behind the ball to a modern tennis forehand - where you then "sliing" the racquet at the ball. The long the load-up phase (aka the bigger the turn) the longer the follow-through. Very similar. However, as I am right-eye dominant and starting to lack some age-related flexibility in the upper thorassic spine, the more I turn my shoulders the more I lose sight of the ball and/or delivery line - in tennis and in golf. Even in tennis I have to keep my feet / hips / head at least semi-open on the forehand side to have both eyes on the ball.

For my golf swing I have adopted an impact fix address position where my head is more behind the ball so I have a chance at a longer load-up turn WHILE still seeing the ball with my (right) dominant eye.

At the moment it just does not translate well to the longer clubs. My wife is plays right-sided but is left-eye dominant. Her best clubs are the driver and fairway woods... Makes sense in a way. 
       

yeah whatever gets your legs grabbing the ground and getting your hips out of the way should translate! Football would be like a sideways football throw, but it’s just the release further out in front vs a sidearm throw from a second baseman to first. Just more the length of the throw is how I visualize it

 

im also a right eye dominant golfer, I just focus on the area behind the ball. I use my practice to swing the see the blur of the club and ensure it’s passing where I want it to relative to the ball / curvature. I then just bring that to the ball, pick a spot around where the club is and fix my eyes there. I allow my right shoulder to release my head. This keeps my low point consistent.

[Elkhair]

I tend to have a cupped wrist at impact so I have been trying to "twist" more in the downswing to get a more bowed wrist and compression at impact. This has lead to golfers elbow and doesnt seem natural. Is it possible to get a bowed wrist at impact with a throw release which feels more natural to me?

[GreatStrike]

21 minutes ago, Elkhair said:

I tend to have a cupped wrist at impact so I have been trying to "twist" more in the downswing to get a more bowed wrist and compression at impact. This has lead to golfers elbow and doesnt seem natural. Is it possible to get a bowed wrist at impact with a throw release which feels more natural to me?

 

@Elkhair - Have you tried to accomplish better compression at impact by maintaining trial wrist bend, which in turn can provide a bowed lead wrist?    

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, Elkhair said:

I tend to have a cupped wrist at impact so I have been trying to "twist" more in the downswing to get a more bowed wrist and compression at impact. This has lead to golfers elbow and doesnt seem natural. Is it possible to get a bowed wrist at impact with a throw release which feels more natural to me?

The release type should not matter.  If your ball striking is good then a slightly cupped lead wrist may be optimal, see Tom Kim.  In this video Hannah Greg is being taught a side on release pattern which is a throw type of release.  The results are excellent:

 

 

[GreatStrike]

18 hours ago, DTM14 said:

However that is one "feel" analogy that I have a hard time with. I have thrown footballs back in the day; however those are all overhead/over-shoulder throw mechanics. If I try to "throw" in a golf swing for me it would be more the "skipping the rock" / "throwing the ball down at my right foot" analogy. 

 

@DTM14 - Maybe changing the way you think about the mechanics of the golf swing will click better for you. 

 

Give some thought to the triangle formed by your shoulders and your two arms, which are coupled at the hands. At address each arm represents one of the two equal length segments that make up this triangle shaped structure. During the backswing one of those two segments is purposely shortened due to the trail arm folding or bending, which makes the shape of the triangle irregular or scalene shaped. Clamped to the two hands is this thing we call a golf club. This irregular shaped triangular structure with a golf club at one of its points is a very special apparatus. Biomechanically we humans are able to make certain functions to act much like a machine or mechanical device.

 

By slightly rotating or pivoting the uppermost segment line of the structured triangle (that line of the triangle represented by your shoulders) just a little down-plane on your desired circular swing arc path - while at the same time purposely re-configuring that shortened segment by straightening out the bent trail arm triangle segment - you have in essence biomechanically made a semblance of a mechanical apparatus or a machine. Like any mechanical apparatus or machine it must be anchored securely to the ground or the base it is mounted on - otherwise it cannot function or operate properly. That means your feet must provide a firm, anchored grip on the ground on which you will be making a golf swing.       

 

By straightening out the bent trail arm triangle segment of this machine-like apparatus that you've concocted - it will forcefully start dragging the golf club that is clamped to your hands into a tremendously powerful centrifugal-centripetal curved motion circular arc. This curved motion is what provides the immensely desirable feel of 'lag' that is so fleeting for most amateur golfers. You've likely felt this lag and strength when swinging a weight around on the end of a string or rope. (If you've ever been water skiing I'm sure you have felt the amazing strength of curved motion.) Like anything orbiting - as long as the arms/club structure remains solidly connected and unchanged for each swing you make, its action can be counted on to repeat perfectly each time a swing is made because the radius never changes.

  

There are only two variables to be cognizant of:

One variable is the amount of timing - as slight as it is - between the time point of pivoting your shoulders down plane and the time point of when you begin straightening out the bent trail arm triangle segment to reconfigure the arms triangle structure for impact. The other variable is the speed and force in which the bent trail arm is straightened.   

 

What you are doing when making a golf swing is essentially altering the shape of 'arms triangle' in the backswing and then rebuilding the original triangle shape on the downswing. Rebuilding the triangle shape offers a mechanical type action that a golfer can take advantage of to swing a golf club in a powerful curved motion circular arc and run the clubhead into the golf ball.   

 

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[nitram]

2 hours ago, Elkhair said:

I tend to have a cupped wrist at impact so I have been trying to "twist" more in the downswing to get a more bowed wrist and compression at impact. This has lead to golfers elbow and doesnt seem natural. Is it possible to get a bowed wrist at impact with a throw release which feels more natural to me?

 

With a proper grip (see Hogan's 5 Lessons) as an example, maintaining the trail wrist angle will move your lead wrist from cupped to bowed, especially if maintaining the "opposing hands" on the grip as espoused by Pete Cowen.

[Elkhair]

32 minutes ago, nitram said:

 

With a proper grip (see Hogan's 5 Lessons) as an example, maintaining the trail wrist angle will move your lead wrist from cupped to bowed, especially if maintaining the "opposing hands" on the grip as espoused by Pete Cowen.

yes. i was trying to keep the trail wrist bent in the downswing, and rotate the trail upper forearm to the left as well.

[Elkhair]

I h

53 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

The release type should not matter.  If your ball striking is good then a slightly cupped lead wrist may be optimal, see Tom Kim.  In this video Hannah Greg is being taught a side on release pattern which is a throw type of release.  The results are excellent:

 

 

i have seen this video, and most of terry and mikes videos on youtube. I just dont understand how the throwing of the trail hand like they are advocating in the video leads to a compressed ball with a neutral/bowed wrist at impact.

 

When I do what they are advocating I have an extended wrist at impact
 

[Nels55]

1 minute ago, Elkhair said:

I h

i have seen this video, and most of terry and mikes videos on youtube. I just dont understand how the throwing of the trail hand like they are advocating in the video leads to a compressed ball with a neutral/bowed wrist at impact.

 

When I do what they are advocating I have an extended wrist at impact
 

Do you have shaft lean at impact with that release?  Do you strike the ball well?  

[nitram]

1 hour ago, Elkhair said:

yes. i was trying to keep the trail wrist bent in the downswing, and rotate the trail upper forearm to the left as well.

 

Just try and see what happens when you focus on not rotating your forearm as described above.

Edited March 31, 2024 by nitram

[DTM14]

On 3/30/2024 at 5:34 PM, GreatStrike said:

 

@DTM14 - I'm glad to hear that you are 'very happy with the results...'

 

Keep in mind that with your irons you'll want significant forward shaft lean which means you'll likely have a hefty degree of trail wrist bend through impact. For longer clubs you'll still want a descending angle of attack but not quite as much forward shaft lean, which means you can back-off on the amount of wrist bend while still maintaining the trail arm push-out to sustain a solid arms/club structure. As long as the arms are tensioned with the trail arm straightening the swing arc radius of the clubhead has an orbit that will repeat. It shouldn't be too difficult to achieve a shallower club path - - and with a stronger lead leg posting or a parametric pull-up or a slight change in ball positioning should give you the 'hit up' degree you're after with the driver. You shouldn't need any swing alteration for the hybrids. 

 

Continue to enjoy and improve! Play good...

 

 

 

        

@GreatStrike

Thank you for this excellent insight. You're correct that I am maintaining a significant trail wrist bend through impact with my irons. Which I already pre-set with my impact fix position. And now it becomes clear that I used the same amount of trail wrist bend at set-up with the driver. 

So backing-off the amount of wrist bend with the driver makes sense. Will report back once I get the chance to take this to the range.   

 

[PedronNiall]

@GreatStrike

 

Would thou be so kind as to explain to me how the players below consistently drive the ball over 300 yards with their lack of right arm ramrod straight piston action?

 

Would your claim be that they don't know how to compress the ball? To be fair, only two of the three have Majors under their belt, so maybe you're onto something and there's just no way to really be a consistent ball striker without the proper kung-fu that your dojo teaches. 

 

 

Now me? What I believe is that feels aren't real and that Hogan's talk of heavy dominant-side action was a chosen feel that worked well for him despite the totality of his swing mirroring most of what we'd find in any top tier player of the past 90ish years if they got on plates & 3D, Hogan included. As self-assured as you come off about all the hidden knowledge you became privy to, there is zero chance you wouldn't be out there teaching true believers The Way of the Dominant Hand while surrounded by accolades, dollars, and the trophies of your adherents if you had it all figured out as you claim. The fact that you have to cite poorly chosen golf influencers instead of those you've taught or video of your own swing says the most. 

 

If you think the swing taught by most--and that most seek out--is whiffing at the ball and not one that creates solid impact through it then you've simply ignored the adherents to it who win on every tour in the world every week of the year. The best part about the traditional method is that the pool of data around the swing that it helps to grow well continue to reveal the best parts of it and cut away the excess more and more each year. Sadly the same can't be said for secret swing voodoo that hides from real evaluation. 

 

The worst part is that by being so antagonistic about presenting what insights might reside in what Hogan talked to your friend about as the only version of the truth, you pretty much guarantee anything of worth shared by him will be lost forever. Maybe there are some great feels and talking points that align with what data reveals goes on in all the variants of the swing that churn to the top. Maybe there are some tidbits that would have people asking questions that push the science of the swing even further. Too bad we'll never know. 

 

[Gsea]

On 4/2/2024 at 10:12 AM, GreatStrike said:

 

I think you probably already know the explanation, or you should.

 

Your character exhibits a trait to ridicule. Not a good quality for any individual...but not unlike some others here. 👎 

 

The trail arm has yet to fully straightened because it is [still] 'straightening' at the time point of approaching impact. You want a 'developing' force - a force that is building - an increasing force, not an expended (depleted) force at impact. You don't want to run out of trail arm straightening. Force buildup requires both time and distance. Also, as the swing moves down toward ball contact the arms begin to expand or stretch out to an expanded position from rotational forces, for the same reason a baseball pitcher's arm expands.   

 

When hammering a nail into wood an experienced carpenter will still be driving his hammer at the time point his hammer head meets the head of the nail - for the same reason an experienced golfer with a sound golf swing is still developing force at impact. You'll see the golfer's trail arm straighten at a point that is post impact.      

 

 

 

where's your video 

[SuperPunch]

I  just finished this whole thread in three weeks. 
 

The twists, the turns (the throws?). My wife would pick up her book and I would read this thread. I have no doubt this was more entertaining. 
 

I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a little sad we’ve reached the end. But I want to thank everyone. From @GreatStrike with many words of wisdom (especially in the early goings, the swing thoughts with longitudinal tension really helped and are appreciated) to @virtuoso for the comic relief and @iacas for the straight forward approach. 
 

I wish I could read this post again for the first time. My only wish is that GS and Ken(?) makeup. That was a rough chapter for me. 
 

Hope you have all been well over the years and fairways and greens to us all.