Do you throw or twist?

[GreatStrike]

On 10/9/2020 at 5:13 PM, Nail_It said:

 

18 hours ago, 80sFredriksson said:

Pull like pulling down with your lead hand or pull by rotating the body?

If the golfer can (a)start the downswing smoothly with a lengthwise (longitudinal) pulling of the clubshaft in a circular arc, and (b)not interfere in any way during the downswing, and (c)not try to add anything at the bottom - then the golfer is well on his or her way to experiencing what a golf 'swing' really feels like and the miraculous (almost unbelievable) results that it produces.   

  

 

Good question, the details of which probably need to be clarified.

 

The pulling of the golf club is done with the lead hand and fingers, not by rotating the body. If you rotate the upper body (torso) it moves the arms, hands and grip of the club outward toward the target line, which you do not want to happen. Likewise, and a common problem for handicap golfers, is to try to force-feed the golf club into the downswing from the top by applying side force to the grip in an effort to make the golf club move outward toward the target line and downward toward to the golf ball. This is the typical over-the-top-move made by millions of handicap golfers that have a hitting mentality. It produces an outside-in clubhead path, an early release in order to make contact, lack of clubhead speed and lack of clubface control - all the bad stuff you want to avoid. The description below of what needs to be done actually prevents this dastardly over-the-top move and makes the 'swing' happen correctly.  

 

In precisely what direction the lead hand and fingers pull the golf club depends on how the clubshaft is oriented at the top of the backswing. Lets say the golfer has made a partial or half swing then the clubshaft will be [primarily] vertically oriented and it will have a little plane tilt - therefore the golfer would indeed pull the club lengthwise (longitudinally) 'down' because the clubshaft is oriented or pointed [primarily] 'down' because it is in an up-down position. In the same vein, or better put 'along the same line' , if the golfer has finished his backswing at around the ¾ position then the clubshaft will be [primarily] at a 45° angle when viewed face-on - therefore the golfer would pull the club lengthwise (longitudinally) at that same 45° angle. The key is to pull on the club in the direction the clubshaft is pointing...and doing so without applying any side force to the handle/grip that could make the club move in any direction other than perfectly in-line with the clubshaft. This is done with the lead hand and fingers and the lead arm will travel in an arc.

 

Once the golfer 'catches on' to this and it becomes natural they'll find that their body sequencing will move upward (from the ground upward) and when the shoulders start to unwind their lead arm and hand starts to pull the golf club (lengthwise) at the same time. Many (maybe most) golfers with sound 'swinging' golf swings feel they actually start their downswing with a smooth pull on the golf club (lengthwise) and their body sequencing reacts to that act.            

 

The objective (and the 'aim') is to pull the clubshaft in the exact direction as it is pointing when at the top of the backswing/transition. Of course, you want the golf club (i.e. clubshaft) aligned at the top whereby it is pointing at the target "if" you have a full backswing where the clubshaft is parallel to the ground or P4 - but if your top-of-the-backswing is short of [clubshaft] parallel then whatever the clubshaft position is at the top, your objective/aim is to pull the clubshaft lengthwise (longitudinally) in the exact direction as it is pointing.  In my opinion I think it is best to not have a full backswing where the clubshaft is parallel to the ground or P4, but instead finish short of that parallel clubshaft position.  The reason why is fairly simple. When the clubshaft reaches parallel (to the ground) at the top then the golfer must pull the club lengthwise (longitudinally) directly behind him (away from the target), and this does not sit well or feel right to most people. Most people find it far easier (to pull the clubshaft in the same lengthwise direction it is pointing) when the club is not parallel to the ground, but instead it is somewhere short of parallel or somewhere around a ¾ swing - let's say something somewhat short of parallel at the top. This seems to help with the conceptual or visual imaging (mind's eye) that all good players have and it keeps the golfer from feeling as though he is backing up or moving the end cap of his golf club further away from his target when he first starts the downswing, which he would be if his clubshaft reached parallel to the ground at the top (a.k.a. P4).     

 

You may have heard the phrase 'like pulling an arrow out of the quiver'. When the archer pulls an arrow from his quiver (a tubular pouch that holds his arrows) he pulls the arrow out in the same direction his quiver is angled, much like you would pull [say] a new driver shaft out of the small diameter shipping tube in the same direction as the tube is pointing. But this pulling direction doesn't just continue in a straight line forever into infinity. It can't of course! The butt end of the grip not only moves in the same lengthwise direction the clubshaft is pointing but it must gradually start moving in a wide circular arc as it moves downward toward the ground. Not outward toward the target line, but slightly outward 'behind' you and away from the target. This wide gradual circular arc you'll be making (as you continue to pull the clubshaft in mostly a lengthwise direction) is easily accomplished because your lead arm and hand will naturally create this arc. All you need to focus on is smoothly and gently pulling the clubshaft in the same lengthwise direction it is pointing at the top and let it follow the circular arc your arm and hand guides it into, and try not to add any side force that would cause the clubshaft to move in a different direction. You are not applying force to the side of the clubshaft in a driving or leveraged manner like a lumberjack driving his axe (hitting) - you are pulling the clubshaft lengthwise like someone would propel a spear except you are pulling on the spear instead of tossing it.  

 

Believe it or not, your tedious work is done by P5 (lead arm parallel to ground). That's just a matter of your hands traveling a couple of feet as you make sure you've started your golf swing correctly with a 'swinging' golf swing. Once the hands get below waist level the wide circular arc your hand and grip butt has been traveling runs into a much smaller circular arc near the bottom where the golf club automatically speeds up dramatically as the hands/wrists pivot without any help from the golfer. You 'let or allow' it to happen - you let it 'ride' like Dan Martin says. Any help to [try to] add speed will almost always upset the centrifugal↔centripetal force and destroy the 'swing. Also, the golfer need not be concerned about the clubface squaring because the golf club is designed to square-up when swung using centrifugal↔centripetal force as opposed to being manhandled with muscular force. 

 

I hope that addresses your question and makes things clearer.   

 

I highly recommend that you watch all three of these videos (below) in their entirety. 

 

        

 

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by Nail_It

[80sFredriksson]

Ty for the detailed reply Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

Without A Circular Arc There Can Be No 'Swing'

How To Start A 'Swinging' Golf Swing From The Top Almost Instantly  

 

A birthday cake without icing is not a birthday cake. A golf swing without a circular arc is not a golf swing. It's time to put the icing on the cake!

 

I've harped about how important it is to begin the downswing by pulling the clubshaft smoothly lengthwise (longitudinally) without applying any side force. I've mentioned how the hands and the butt end of the club start moving in a circular arc. But I have neglected to discuss in detail the importance of exactly why the circular arc is totally responsible for getting the golf swing started as a centrifugal↔centripetal force 'swing'. And, I have also not discussed how to make sure it happens every time. Stay tuned!

 

Once a golfer's downswing doesn't begin as a 'swinging' motion it will never become a swinging motion, and the only recourse the golfer has during that occurrence is to manhandle the golf club with muscular force...and it's never pretty. It's easy to get a ball on the end of a string spinning around in a circle. After a couple of revolutions the ball on the string is swinging around in perfect orbit. We golfers don't have the luxury of making a couple of revolutions to get our golf club swinging. A golf swing encompasses only about half a circle from beginning to impact. We must get our golf club started 'swinging' right away from a dead stop. This happens to be a major obstacle for many (maybe most) golfers that prevents them from being able to 'swing' a golf club - and we're going to take care of it.

 

The task we must accomplish is figuring out how to get the golf club started 'swinging' right from the get-go in the downswing. If you think about it, at the top of the backswing our hands are likely well short of being directly opposite the golf ball that sits on the ground, therefore our hands have less than half a circle to travel before impact occurs. The truth of the matter is, all we need is about two feet of hand travel distance to create exactly what we need in centrifugal↔centripetal force to power the golf club the rest of the way through impact with tremendous speed. Two feet - that's all! 

 

The downswing is started with a gentle pulling on the clubshaft lengthwise (longitudinally). This straight line movement doesn't create a 'swinging' motion at all. The hands must travel in a circular arc to create a centrifugal↔centripetal force 'swinging' motion. But not just any arc will do 'if' you want the 'swinging' action to get started right away. The trick technique to get a 'swinging' golf swing started right away is simple yet not easily conceptualized by many people. The problem is lack of tension (stretch) in the arm/club structure at the beginning of the downswing. I've mentioned before that if the golf club's shaft was made of something very flexible the golf 'swing' would actually be much easier for most people to learn. Like starting a ball swinging on the end of a string, the string must have stretch tension before it can be pulled into orbit. It's the same with a golf swing even though the clubshaft is not flexible like a string. Some golfers are able to get away with just moderate stretch tension and a very circle shaped arc at the beginning of their downswing, but if there is insufficient stretch tension or if the circular arc shrinks in diameter a little at the start of the downswing, then a centrifugal↔centripetal force 'swing' will be happenstance at best. The circular hand arc must remain expanded or in a widen shape and must not narrow.   

 

Consider the ball on the end of a string again. Instead of being allowed a couple of casual revolutions to get the ball spinning around and around in a circle, let's say you were given only half a revolution to get the ball spinning around. Chances are you would probably say 'no problem' and establish your starting motion with a bit of additional outward throw on the ball to increase string tension and then when you pulled on the string from a wide beginning circular arc the ball would begin its orbiting motion right away. The difference between casually spinning the ball around and the almost immediate spinning of the ball around is just a matter of extending the beginning arc a couple of inches wider and being a little snappier with your pull-in action. If you understand that process, now all we need to do is use the same technique at the beginning of the downswing.   

 

For some people they need to feel that at the beginning of their downswing their hand path needs to start out a bit wide, with the swing taking on a flattened ellipsoidal ⬭ shape for the first few inches instead of a perfect circular shape. This slightly wider circular hand path downswing beginning provides an immediate 'tensioned - stretch' circular arc downswing that triggers the centrifugal↔centripetal action and dramatically amplifies the force in a very short travel distance. Much like the ball on the end of the string, it's that initial outward move or stretch that tightens the tension and allows the centrifugal↔centripetal force swing to get started right away. It's no different than learning how to get a hand gyro exercise ball spinning quickly - more often than not there's a technique to it.  

 

Lastly, much has been made about amateur golfers 'casting' the golf club during their downswing. I have an issue with how 'casting' is defined. You can make a casting motion by unhinging your wrists or you can make a casting motion without unhinging your wrists. The former is a bad action in a golf swing, but the latter (making a casting motion without unhinging your wrists) is a very desirable attribute. Let me explain. From the beginning of the downswing the golfer should feel that he is casting the club (without unhinging his wrists). This should be combined with what has already been detailed concerning how to make a 'swinging' golf swing using centrifugal↔centripetal force and pulling the clubshaft lengthwise (longitudinally). Simply put, it's circular arc 'casting' in a good way combined with pulling smoothly lengthwise on the clubshaft. When you have a centrifugal↔centripetal force golf swing the hands and club only need to travel a couple of feet with your undivided attention, then you can let it 'ride' from there on through impact.  

 

But there's more that might help many golfers achieve a sound golf swing that will be surprising. Forget about everything pertaining to body movements and positions except for your arms, wrists, hands and the golf club.  Head and shoulders, knees and toes along with everything in between should be allowed to do whatever they please.  If you can learn to get the golf club in a good position at the top most people will find that they have very adequate shoulder turn and hip rotation without thinking about it. Allow the focus to be on getting the clubshaft pointed in a good position at the top, and the give your full attention to starting the downswing correctly (pulling lengthwise on clubshaft and having it travel in a nice full arc), and chances are really good that you'll start seeing your body sequencing really improve.    

   

Edited October 11, 2020 by Nail_It

[Zitlow]

Said he was casting but he wasn't. As his right elbow unfolded his right hand snapped. 

[Nard_S]

6 hours ago, Nail_It said:

Without A Circular Arc There Can Be No 'Swing'

How To Start A 'Swinging' Golf Swing From The Top Almost Instantly  

 

A birthday cake without icing is not a birthday cake. A golf swing without a circular arc is not a golf swing. It's time to put the icing on the cake!

 

I've harped about how important it is to begin the downswing by pulling the clubshaft smoothly lengthwise (longitudinally) without applying any side force. I've mentioned how the hands and the butt end of the club start moving in a circular arc. But I have neglected to discuss in detail the importance of exactly why the circular arc is totally responsible for getting the golf swing started as a centrifugal↔centripetal force 'swing'. And, I have also not discussed how to make sure it happens every time. Stay tuned!

 

Once a golfer's downswing doesn't begin as a 'swinging' motion it will never become a swinging motion, and the only recourse the golfer has during that occurrence is to manhandle the golf club with muscular force...and it's never pretty. It's easy to get a ball on the end of a string spinning around in a circle. After a couple of revolutions the ball on the string is swinging around in perfect orbit. We golfers don't have the luxury of making a couple of revolutions to get our golf club swinging. A golf swing encompasses only about half a circle from beginning to impact. We must get our golf club started 'swinging' right away from a dead stop. This happens to be a major obstacle for many (maybe most) golfers that prevents them from being able to 'swing' a golf club - and we're going to take care of it.

 

The task we must accomplish is figuring out how to get the golf club started 'swinging' right from the get-go in the downswing. If you think about it, at the top of the backswing our hands are likely well short of being directly opposite the golf ball that sits on the ground, therefore our hands have less than half a circle to travel before impact occurs. The truth of the matter is, all we need is about two feet of hand travel distance to create exactly what we need in centrifugal↔centripetal force to power the golf club the rest of the way through impact with tremendous speed. Two feet - that's all! 

 

The downswing is started with a gentle pulling on the clubshaft lengthwise (longitudinally). This straight line movement doesn't create a 'swinging' motion at all. The hands must travel in a circular arc to create a centrifugal↔centripetal force 'swinging' motion. But not just any arc will do 'if' you want the 'swinging' action to get started right away. The trick technique to get a 'swinging' golf swing started right away is simple yet not easily conceptualized by many people. The problem is lack of tension (stretch) in the arm/club structure at the beginning of the downswing. I've mentioned before that if the golf club's shaft was made of something very flexible the golf 'swing' would actually be much easier for most people to learn. Like starting a ball swinging on the end of a string, the string must have stretch tension before it can be pulled into orbit. It's the same with a golf swing even though the clubshaft is not flexible like a string. Some golfers are able to get away with just moderate stretch tension and a very circle shaped arc at the beginning of their downswing, but if there is insufficient stretch tension or if the circular arc shrinks in diameter a little at the start of the downswing, then a centrifugal↔centripetal force 'swing' will be happenstance at best. The circular hand arc must remain expanded or in a widen shape and must not narrow.   

 

Consider the ball on the end of a string again. Instead of being allowed a couple of casual revolutions to get the ball spinning around and around in a circle, let's say you were given only half a revolution to get the ball spinning around. Chances are you would probably say 'no problem' and establish your starting motion with a bit of additional outward throw on the ball to increase string tension and then when you pulled on the string from a wide beginning circular arc the ball would begin its orbiting motion right away. The difference between casually spinning the ball around and the almost immediate spinning of the ball around is just a matter of extending the beginning arc a couple of inches wider and being a little snappier with your pull-in action. If you understand that process, now all we need to do is use the same technique at the beginning of the downswing.   

 

For some people they need to feel that at the beginning of their downswing their hand path needs to start out a bit wide, with the swing taking on a flattened ellipsoidal ⬭ shape for the first few inches instead of a perfect circular shape. This slightly wider circular hand path downswing beginning provides an immediate 'tensioned - stretch' circular arc downswing that triggers the centrifugal↔centripetal action and dramatically amplifies the force in a very short travel distance. Much like the ball on the end of the string, it's that initial outward move or stretch that tightens the tension and allows the centrifugal↔centripetal force swing to get started right away. It's no different than learning how to get a hand gyro exercise ball spinning quickly - more often than not there's a technique to it.  

 

Lastly, much has been made about amateur golfers 'casting' the golf club during their downswing. I have an issue with how 'casting' is defined. You can make a casting motion by unhinging your wrists or you can make a casting motion without unhinging your wrists. The former is a bad action in a golf swing, but the latter (making a casting motion without unhinging your wrists) is a very desirable attribute. Let me explain. From the beginning of the downswing the golfer should feel that he is casting the club (without unhinging his wrists). This should be combined with what has already been detailed concerning how to make a 'swinging' golf swing using centrifugal↔centripetal force and pulling the clubshaft lengthwise (longitudinally). Simply put, it's circular arc 'casting' in a good way combined with pulling smoothly lengthwise on the clubshaft. When you have a centrifugal↔centripetal force golf swing the hands and club only need to travel a couple of feet with your undivided attention, then you can let it 'ride' from there on through impact.  

 

But there's more that might help many golfers achieve a sound golf swing that will be surprising. Forget about everything pertaining to body movements and positions except for your arms, wrists, hands and the golf club.  Head and shoulders, knees and toes along with everything in between should be allowed to do whatever they please.  If you can learn to get the golf club in a good position at the top most people will find that they have very adequate shoulder turn and hip rotation without thinking about it. Allow the focus to be on getting the clubshaft pointed in a good position at the top, and the give your full attention to starting the downswing correctly (pulling lengthwise on clubshaft and having it travel in a nice full arc), and chances are really good that you'll start seeing your body sequencing really improve.    

   

 

A lot of what is being said here can be summed up as "straighten the trail arm as soon and as fast you can". 

 

I vehemently disagree with the notion "that everything in between should be allowed to do whatever they please", not that what I say matters but 30 years playing has taught me otherwise.

[GreatStrike]

28 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

 

A lot of what is being said here can be summed up as "straighten the trail arm as soon and as fast you can". 

 

I vehemently disagree with the notion "that everything in between should be allowed to do whatever they please", not that what I say matters but 30 years playing has taught me otherwise.

 

A swinger attempting to use his trail arm is just asking for problems. That is part of a hitting protocol.

 

As for the notion "that everything in between should be allowed to do whatever they please" is an attempt to have the golfer to concentrate on what has been discussed and not on stuff like elbow positions, hip rotation, shoulder turn, tilt, weight shift, etc., etc., etc. that commonly causes a lot of totally unnecessary troubles.    

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Nail_It

[Nard_S]

1 minute ago, Nail_It said:

 

A swinger attempting to use his trail arm is just asking for problems. That is part of a hitting protocol.

 

As for the notion "that everything in between should be allowed to do whatever they please" is an attempt to have the golfer to concentrate on what has been discussed and not on stuff like elbow positions, hip rotation, shoulder turn, tilt, weight shift, etc., etc., etc. that unnecessary troubles.    

 

When you suggest that he "pulls along the shaft" it is the same thing as saying "please unfold the right arm" and I would ad "please do it sooner & faster than you think you need to".

 

A huge paradigm shift to getting better at this stuff is to become a lot more encompassing and aware about the entire endeavor of swinging a club. What "everything between" can deny you if you don't use them right is immense. Like 80% of the reasons amateurs stink and never improve at this game.

[GreatStrike]

6 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

 

When you suggest that he "pulls along the shaft" it is the same thing as saying "please unfold the right arm" and I would ad "please do it sooner & faster than you think you need to".

 

A huge paradigm shift to getting better at this stuff is to become a lot more encompassing and aware about the entire endeavor of swinging a club. What "everything between" can deny you if you don't use them right is immense. Like 80% of the reasons amateurs stink and never improve at this game.

 

Heavens no, pulling lengthwise on the clubshaft with the lead hand and fingers is absolutely not the same as unfolding the right arm. That's nowhere even remotely close to being the same. The latter would be a driving physical (muscular) force like how you would use an axe. That's what you could do (hitting) when the clubshaft is inflexible.  When you 'swing' a golf club the shaft could be a flexible rope. Two completely different methods. 

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Nail_It

[Nard_S]

It is a fact that PGA level swings have the trail arm unfolding faster and quicker and to a greater degree than amateurs. All types of swings too, the smooth guys and the gorilla hitters.

[GreatStrike]

1 minute ago, Nard_S said:

It is a fact that PGA level swings have the trail arm unfolding faster and quicker and to a greater degree than amateurs. All types of swings too, the smooth guys and the gorilla hitters.

 

But why is the trail arm unfolding? Is it unfolding by virtue of a swinging action, or is it purposely being unfolded with physical force with the intention of it adding speed/force?  Two totally and completely different scenarios.   

[Nard_S]

1 minute ago, Nail_It said:

 

But why is the trail arm unfolding? Is it unfolding by virtue of a swinging action, or is it purposely being unfolded with physical force with the intention of it adding speed/force?  Two totally and completely different scenarios.   

They pro actively do it and yes, it does work. Is it easy to incorporate into the swing? No. Gets way harder, even impossible when you let "everything in between" go to dog poop too, but that's another discussion.

[GreatStrike]

You will find that sound swingers of the golf club are almost exclusively left arm only swingers that do not [also] use their right arm, who could be called two arm swingers. I believe even Homer Kelley said that a swinger should not try to use his right arm (maybe called PA#3). Most amateurs that try to use a swingers swing destroys things when they try to use the right arm. Not that a small percentage of swingers cannot use the right arm successfully, but I think doing so causes problems for most.      

Edited October 12, 2020 by Nail_It

[moehogan]

Why can’t the “pull” from the top be done with the right arm? Just pull the arrow out of the quiver with the two middle fingers of the right hand ... no push required and PA4 is released.
 

Homer didn’t spend a lot of with it, but he did acknowledge the existence of right arm swinging. There are TGM instructors who have taught it ... Tom Tomasello comes to mind.

Edited October 12, 2020 by moehogan

[GreatStrike]

4 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

They pro actively do it and yes, it does work. Is it easy to incorporate into the swing? No. Gets way harder, even impossible when you let "everything in between" go to dog poop too, but that's another discussion.

 

Exactly!  As I said; Most amateurs that try to use a swingers swing destroys things when they try to use the right arm. Not that a small percentage of swingers cannot use the right arm successfully, but I think doing so causes problems for most.      

 

 There's no need to be sarcastic...

[GreatStrike]

1 minute ago, moehogan said:

Why can’t the “pull” from the top be done with the right arm? Just pull the arrow out of the quiver with the two middle fingers of the right hand ... no push required.
 

Homer didn’t spend a lot of with it, but he did acknowledge the existence of right arm swinging. There are TGM instructors who have taught it ... Tom Tomasello comes to mind.

 

The right hand could be used to pull the clubshaft lengthwise but why would you want to use the right hand if you are a swinger of the golf club? After pulling the club lengthwise with the right hand would you then turn over responsibility to the left hand/arm for the remainder of the downswing?

 

I'm not suggesting that a swinger could never use the right arm as a swinger to make a two arm swinger, but it rarely works as seen every day with amateurs that try and try and try...

 

[Nard_S]

I'm confused. Were you not a few pages back advocating that the swing was best approached as right side dominant? I recall my inspiration to join this conversation in the 1st place was to dispel that notion.

 

When the wrists are fully c0cked, pulling along the shaft invariably leads to the right arm unfold. It has to.

 

 

[GreatStrike]

38 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

I'm confused. Were you not a few pages back advocating that the swing was best approached as right side dominant? I recall my inspiration to join this conversation in the 1st place was to dispel that notion.

 

When the wrists are fully c0cked, pulling along the shaft invariably leads to the right arm unfold. It has to.

 

 

 

Yes, you are confused.

 

I suggested that if someone was extremely right side dominant and could not use their left (lead) side that one could use their right side to make their golf swing from the right side. It's somewhat unusual but two or three noted instructors have taught students that way, using the right side swinging from the right.

 

No, I did not advocate using the right side unless the golfer just couldn't use their left side, then it may be the only way - or the best way - for that particular individual. And no, I did not say (as a general statement) the golf swing was best approached as right side dominant. Something may be taken out of context that would imply that, but HERE is just one of many posts where I made it clear that I was not advocating that a right side swing is best.   

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Nail_It

[Zitlow]

I don't think Austin was a swinger. He used his left arm like the revolving side of a compass and as the radius of his circle.  

[GreatStrike]

6 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

I don't think Austin was a swinger. He used his left arm like the revolving side of a compass and as the radius of his circle.  

 

 

I think Mike Austin called his swing a throwing action, which as your gif displays his golf swing was right-sided playing from the right side. Unusual, and rare but it can be used if it works out best for the individual, which is what I discussed earlier in this thread. Not best for everyone by any means...   

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Nail_It

[moehogan]

30 minutes ago, Nail_It said:

 

The right hand could be used to pull the clubshaft lengthwise but why would you want to use the right hand if you are a swinger of the golf club? After pulling the club lengthwise with the right hand would you then turn over responsibility to the left hand/arm for the remainder of the downswing?

 

I'm not suggesting that a swinger could never use the right arm as a swinger to make a two arm swinger, but it rarely works as seen every day with amateurs that try and try and try...

 

The two middle fingers of the right hand are in charge the whole way, pulling the club around the pivoting player to the left into the follow through and up to the finish.  No need to push or to pull with the left arm. Think underhand!

Edited October 12, 2020 by moehogan

[GreatStrike]

1 minute ago, moehogan said:

The two middle fingers of the right hand are in charge the whole way, pulling the club around the pivoting player to the left into the follow through and up to the finish.  No need to push or to pull with the left arm.

 

Sounds like a Mike Austin golf swing! Can be done, but it is rare to swing using the right arm only, playing from the right. 

[baudi]

Quote

But why is the trail arm unfolding? Is it unfolding by virtue of a swinging action, or is it purposely being unfolded with physical force with the intention of it adding speed/force?  Two totally and completely different scenarios.   

In retrospect, I guess I was not the only one who was a bit confused by the wordy posts of Nail it. No offense btw. Probably I was simply lost in translation.

 

The question in green and red may be of rhetoric nature. To me, it is where I agree and disagree in the same sentence.

In green : Yes, I unfold my right arm top support my swing;

In red: No, I do not want to add power/force.  

 

The reason for the extension of the trail arm is to make sure I can create the widest arc possible with the clubhead. The longer and wider the arc; the better my path at impact.  Of course, plain physics dictate more speed can be genereated.       

Simply using one arm will not do that. In transition I want the clubhead to move up and away from the target line. The extension of the right arm will/must support accordingly. Please skip the following.

 

For me the trail  arm is a complex move since various directions are done in one action

1.  from shoulder the upper arm pushes elbow in towards the hip

2. from the elbow the fore arm extends.  Be aware that the extension is out but due to point 1 the fore arm tilts/moves in the opposite direction of the upper arm.

3. the trail wrist rotates ccw. Due to the angle of the wrist in transition, the club head will move up and away from the target line.

Note that simple rotation of the trail wrist (pronating) moves around the supinating action of the lead wrist and involves  direct action of the fore arm(s).       

 

Moving back to the origins of this topic: yes I throw my trail arm. But it is quite a complex motion and conditioned by many factors.  

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by baudi

[GreatStrike]

15 hours ago, baudi said:

In retrospect, I guess I was not the only one who was a bit confused by the wordy posts of Nail it. No offense btw. Probably I was simply lost in translation.

 

The question in green and red may be of rhetoric nature. To me, it is where I agree and disagree in the same sentence.

In green : Yes, I unfold my right arm top support my swing;

In red: No, I do not want to add power/force.  

 

The reason for the extension of the trail arm is to make sure I can create the widest arc possible with the clubhead. The longer and wider the arc; the better my path at impact.  Of course, plain physics dictate more speed can be genereated.       

Simply using one arm will not do that. In transition I want the clubhead to move up and away from the target line. The extension of the right arm will/must support accordingly. Please skip the following.

 

For me the trail  arm is a complex move since various directions are done in one action

1.  from shoulder the upper arm pushes elbow in towards the hip

2. from the elbow the fore arm extends.  Be aware that the extension is out but due to point 1 the fore arm tilts/moves in the opposite direction of the upper arm.

3. the trail wrist rotates ccw. Due to the angle of the wrist in transition, the club head will move up and away from the target line.

Note that simple rotation of the trail wrist (pronating) moves around the supinating action of the lead wrist and involves  direct action of the fore arm(s).       

 

Moving back to the origins of this topic: yes I throw my trail arm. But it is quite a complex motion and conditioned by many factors.  

 

 

baudi - And thus the difficulties of understanding the golf swing, breaking down the golf swing, explaining the golf swing, teaching the golf swing, and for most people to actually perform a sound golf swing.

 

My quickly typed original question should have been composed better, which is [now] rephrased as follows: 

But exactly why is the trail arm unfolding? Is the trail arm being allowed to passively unfold by virtue of a 'swinging' action (a.k.a. centrifugal↔centripetal force) since its primary use is to provide structural support for the golf swing and its only remaining benefit is to provide its mass (weight) to add passive force by virtue of physics, or is it purposely being unfolded by using consciously activated muscular effort (muscular strength to generate force) with the explicit and full intention of its described use to add speed/force to the golf swing?  Two totally and completely different scenarios.   

 

I suspect your answers however will remain the same as follows:

In green: Yes, I unfold my right arm to support my swing

In red: No, I do not want to add power/force.  

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Nail_It

[KMeloney]

Nail_It -- This has been a very enlightening discussion for me. In my round this past weekend, the shots where I concentrated on (and was able to achieve) "gathering up the slack" of the club to start the downswing by way of "pulling" on the grip were easily the best. When I didn't achieve that feel, it was obvious to me, and the strike suffered.

 

Incidentally, I think the Dan Martin videos are useful in introducing a different concept to everyone who otherwise pressures the side of the shaft. However, in none of the videos does he actually discuss how to do what he's promoting. Maybe that's part of it -- that you need to buy his device in order to get the real "how to". You, on the other hand, have described exactly how to move the club: with a pull along the shaft. So, in that important sense, I've found your descriptions to be much better than those videos.

[moehogan]

13 hours ago, Nail_It said:

 

Sounds like a Mike Austin golf swing! Can be done, but it is rare to swing using the right arm only, playing from the right. 

 

[Nard_S]

5 minutes ago, Nail_It said:

 

baudi - And thus the difficulties of understanding the golf swing, breaking down the golf swing, explaining the golf swing, teaching the golf swing, and for most people to actually perform a sound golf swing.

 

My quickly typed original question should have been composed better, which is [now] rephrased as follows: 

But exactly why is the trail arm unfolding? Is the trail arm being allowed to passively unfold by virtue of a 'swinging' action (a.k.a. centrifugal↔centripetal force) since its primary use is to provide structural support for the golf swing and its only remaining benefit is to provide its mass (weight) to add passive force by virtue of physics, or is it purposely being unfolded by using consciously activated muscular effort (muscular strength to generate force) with the explicit and full intention of its described use to add speed/force to the golf swing?  Two totally and completely different scenarios.   

 

I suspect your answers however will remain the same as follows:

In green: Yes, I unfold my right arm to support my swing

In red: No, I do not want to add power/force.  

 

And without a doubt most highly skilled swings are emphatically unfolding at a faster rate and it's done earlier in the swing than most amateurs ever get close to doing. Most amateurs over fold trail arm in the 1st place. Trail arm unfold shallows the club. Step in front of mirror, go to top, do nothing more than unfold. The club goes under plane and lays down.

 

This is where, "to be a swinger, let the body react or let the body step aside" and let's have the club rule the swing fails. The body is commanding the unfold from the core out and creating the separation & rotation that helps unfold the arm. One can add fire to that move by throwing the club pro actively, David Duvall talked of this and you can pretty much see it in most swings televised on the weekend. Watch how fast they fire the hands from the top with a driver. How fast they get the hands in front of torso. They motor it but they are also motoring hip clearance and shoulder rotation. 

 

Truth is to be a "swinger", the body is in greater command, not less. 

[GreatStrike]

23 hours ago, KMeloney said:

Nail_It -- This has been a very enlightening discussion for me. In my round this past weekend, the shots where I concentrated on (and was able to achieve) "gathering up the slack" of the club to start the downswing by way of "pulling" on the grip were easily the best. When I didn't achieve that feel, it was obvious to me, and the strike suffered.

 

Incidentally, I think the Dan Martin videos are useful in introducing a different concept to everyone who otherwise pressures the side of the shaft. However, in none of the videos does he actually discuss how to do what he's promoting. Maybe that's part of it -- that you need to buy his device in order to get the real "how to". You, on the other hand, have described exactly how to move the club: with a pull along the shaft. So, in that important sense, I've found your descriptions to be much better than those videos.

 

Thank you KMeloney, I appreciate your kind words. 

 

The Dan Martin videos display what needs to be done to understand the heart and substance of how to make a 'swinging' golf swing. The videos with Brendon DeVore of Be Better Golf as a student definitely helps too. I think the action that Dan Martin teaches for a 'swinging' golf swing with the help of his 'The PRO' device is spot-on.👍  The 'PRO' stands for "Precise Rotational Orbit" which is exactly how you want to 'swing' a golf club - in a circular orbit.

 

Dan's videos details what needs to happen...yet might be lacking a little with the 'how to'. To be honest I'm not so sure that Dan could do much more in his non-promotional videos to explain how to do it...unless he really got down into the weeds (as I tend to do in hopes that my thoughts are understood) with excrutiating detail. I suspect Dan has some 'how to' videos that are made available to buyers of his device. I also strongly suspect that when Dan is working one-on-one with a student that when necessary and appropriate he gets down into the weeds and is fully capable of explaining in great detail using different analogies and metaphors until what he's attempting to get across to his student hits home.    

 

In my opinion just watching Dan or someone performing the action (both correctly and incorrectly) of a centrifugal→centripetal force swing using 'The PRO' device is equally helpful and valuable to learning how to perform the action correctly compared to actually having Dan's device. Seeing, conceptualizing, envisioning and then using that knowledge to feel and produce the correct action yourself is, I think, the process to learning it. Some people are better than others at using their 'mind's eye' to get into various positions that are out of one's visual sight. That said, if you had 'The PRO' device you might find it best to turn your head and actually look at the very beginning of the downswing action to make sure it's being pulled lengthwise (longitudinally). Maybe performing the action in front of a mirror would be another way. Truth be told, I think most people are able to see (and read) what needs to be done and then they can take it to the practice area and learn how to do it without really needing the training device. I'm sure you agree that a similar training device could easily be handmade with some readily available parts around the house or shop, or from the local hardware store. 

 

A few things to concentrate on when learning and practicing to acquire a true golf 'swing':

In the first foot or so of the downswing is where you really need to concentrate and put your mind's eye to make sure you are smoothly pulling the club precisely in-line with the clubshaft. Any concentrating emphasis you normally put into the golf ball or the target needs to be transferred to the beginnings of your downswing. This first downswing motion needs to be a smooth and gradual stretching of the clubshaft that should not be at all rushed, especially when learning. Make sure your grip pressure is only moderately light, because with a 'swinging' golf swing you will not be adding muscular force to 'make' the rigid golf club move. As you smoothly pull the clubshaft lengthwise and into a circular arc try to make the circular arc a bit wide (like a spiral shape progresses wider) to help keep stretch tension on the clubshaft. It's okay to pull on the clubshaft lengthwise using the fingers of both hands if that helps you direct the momentum lengthwise. As you pull on the clubshaft lengthwise try to conceptualize that your hands are actually part of the club's grip and not part of your body - this can help keep your wrists from unhinging as you rotate your body and your arms during the downswing. Keep uppermost in mind that your goal is to apply stretch tension to the clubshaft and applying this lengthwise longitudinal stretch tension needs to 1) begin at the beginning of the downswing and 2) it should only happen smoothly and gradually. Understand that with a 'swinging' golf swing you'll have plenty of clubhead speed with only minimal application of stretch tension on the clubshaft. Once you get good at it just a tiny bit more stretch tension adds a lot more impact speed, but don't be overzealous in the early goings.          

 

I think spending some time at the practice range goes a long way in perfecting what Dan Martin is displaying and what I have tried to detail with my words. 

 

Thank you for sharing your experience, and again thank you for the kind words that my descriptions on how to perform the action are helpful to you.       

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

KMeloney - These videos may help you better understand the SWING! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

I believe this is worthy of being posted: 

 

I believe that the true golf swing is much easier to learn than most people make it. Most golfers confuse and complicate the golf swing by getting stuck with what I call 'do-this, do-that' information. They are always trying to 'make' a move like 'pulling the elbow into the right side' or 'holding the angle then release late'. There are a thousand of these 'secret' moves that people keep trying in the hope they will finally find their swing. The reality, however, is that everybody knows how to swing, they just haven’t applied it to their golf swings!

 

What usually happens when we pursue the 'do-this, do-that' model is that we try to copy the look of a good swing, but we usually get farther away from actually 'swinging'.

 

It doesn’t have to be that way. The biggest problem golfers face is misconception. Most hold on to notions like, 'the left arm needs to be straight', or 'I’ve got to hold the angle'. While these are things that appear to be true when watching a professional golf swing, they are far from the experience of truly 'swinging'. In fact, the true phenomenon that I’ve experienced and witnessed hundreds of times is that once the student understands 'swinging', sees what a swing is, and can feel what a swing is, then 'good' golf form begins to take shape…without thinking about a bunch of different moves or positions. (How many times has your favorite teacher given position advice?)  What I’m trying to say is that learning the function of 'swinging' comes before the form or image of swinging. Most golfers (and teachers) assume that if the form looks right, then the swing will function properly. (Wrong!)

 

If you find yourself inconsistent or not progressing, I’m willing to bet that you continually try to copy form or force your individual muscles to 'do (shift weight to start downswing, keep left arm straight, make sure hips are turning first, etc.) - a specific move hoping that a great swing will magically appear. That is not how you learned to do anything you do well. I’ll give you a simple understanding of the physics of 'swinging' an object and how to truly learn how develop it without all the mental noise. The only thing you will need to have success is: 1) a willingness to do instead of think you are doing, 2) drop your pre-conceived notions of what you think a swing should be, and 3) be able to notice the differences between what does and doesn’t work.

 

by Dan Martin - Class-A PGA Professional Instructor

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Nail_It

[KMeloney]

I understood prior to those videos -- but I'm glad he used the playground swing analogy and visuals to better explain it to those who don't really understand it. Thanks for adding those vids!