Do you throw or twist?

[GreatStrike]

22 hours ago, dminn23 said:

 

 

Been there, leads to nothing but weak wipes which you then try to manipulate and save with your hands.  Low point control becomes a total pain, and you get a mix of fats and thins because you're so far out front of it.  Longer the club, the worse the results.  Its one of those pieces of advice thats correct, but missing key pieces of information.  Its not "keep pulling at the target horizontally"....there needs to be some feeling of "up" for me.. 

 

@dminn23 - Your result is very common for most people that try to 'swing' the golf club.

 

Most people end up with a golf swing that is really anything but a 'swinging' action and instead it represents something more like a circle with a slash through it because the golfer's improper objective (or incorrect goal) is to drive his lead hand and club downward toward the ball. He can't perceive why he really needs to drive his controlling hand and the club 'around' the circumference of the circular arc in order to generate orbital swing speed with orbital preciseness. What most people typically lack is the trail arm straightening straight out toward 1st base in their downswing. Instead, they straighten their trail arm down toward the ground (with the full intention of driving the lead hand and club down) and they totally lack the 'out' (to 1st base) which provides the 'around' (for speed, stability and force). Why? Because they've been taught the golf swing is to me made by using the left hand and side.  

 

 

Most golfers fail to understand how they can deloft their clubface and have shaft lean while applying massive force needed to compress the ball and make contact dead on the sweet spot every time. The truth of the matter is - that is simply not going to be possible with a swing that doesn't go 'around' the circumference of the circular arc in order to generate orbital swing speed with orbital preciseness.

 

So, you may be asking how is that done. There must be a constant push force from the right hand palm applied against the 'base' of the left thumb to provide the width all sound golf swings have, and this provides a degree of needed tension all sound golf swings have. From this - train and educate the right hand and arm to control the swing....and train and educate the right hand to control the clubface. The objective is to experience what - straightening the right arm straight outward toward 1st base (NOT DOWN) like a piston - does for your swing in terms of driving the club 'around' the circle. It's imperative to maintain a pushing force on the 'base' of the left thumb with the palm of the right hand as you learn and see the positive results it produces.   

 

      

Edited December 5, 2023 by GreatStrike

[GreatStrike]

On 6/15/2023 at 9:42 AM, Zitlow said:

I took lessons from a driving range pro who told me to pull with my left shoulder and arm, ended up with a terrible case of handle dragging and an awful chase move with my head. 

 

 

 

On 12/4/2023 at 10:01 AM, dminn23 said:

 

 

Been there, leads to nothing but weak wipes which you then try to manipulate and save with your hands.  Low point control becomes a total pain, and you get a mix of fats and thins because you're so far out front of it.  Longer the club, the worse the results.  Its one of those pieces of advice thats correct, but missing key pieces of information.  Its not "keep pulling at the target horizontally"....there needs to be some feeling of "up" for me.. 

 

 

 

Unfortunately, this result is so typical when a golfer tries to 'swing' his golf club. What happens is they try to manipulate the clubhead and square the clubface using their lead (left) arm to torque or twist the clubshaft. This is an in-line movement which the human body is typically not very capable of handling. It usually produces open face contact, no delofting or shaft lean, weak clubhead speed and minimal compression. What more could you 'not' want!   

 

This in-line torque twisting is totally opposite to the massive torque force that can be produced by using leverage. For example, if you wanted to twist (or tighten) something you are far better prepared to use leverage - such as a socket ratchet bar at a 90° angle as opposed to using in-line force with a screwdriver - unless the in-line force comes from a strong pneumatic impact drill. Lever force vs. in-line force has a maximum divergency of 90 degrees.

 

This is why using the right hand and arm in a lever fashion with the right arm straightening straight outward from the shoulder like a piston guides the hand arc to travel the outer edge of the orbit circumference. Leveraged force to compress the ball is massive and much easier to learn - and squaring the clubface, delofting with shaft lean and making pinpoint sweet spot contact every time is a delight. 

 

Pulling with the left arm and twisting the left arm and clubshaft is a fool's game - because the golfer doesn't succeed with his objective of producing his maximum clubhead speed, maximally compressing the golf ball, having perfect ball flight trajectory with impeccable accuracy. It's a frustrating attempt by the golfer because it always results in the same wasting of time with the same poor swing results because their modus operandi is faulty.

 

As Jack Nicklaus has said; the golf swing must be made using leverage. Leverage for a right-handed golfer comes from his right hand and arm, not from the left...even though most golf teachers/instructors still typically says it does. 

 

 

 

 

  

Edited December 17, 2023 by GreatStrike

[tilasan]

On 6/11/2023 at 12:12 PM, GreatStrike said:

@Jayjay_theweim_guy - I'll give you something to think about that will hopefully help you. 

 

Considering that we golfers grip or hold the golf club with both hands it would probably make good [common] sense to most people that if our goal is to swing the golf club (actually the clubhead) toward the target (or the ball) that we should use whatever force we can muster-up from each hand/arm to drive it in the direction we want it to go. Think about how a dual-motor Tesla EV car uses both its motors 'at the same time' to propel the EV car in the direction the driver wants it to go with combined power from both its motors. Well, that technological advancement may apply to dual-motor EV vehicles, but it does not apply to swinging a golf club. Let me explain. 

 

The golf swing is difficult to learn,  but is made more difficult because we hold (grip) the golf club and power the swing using both hands/arms.  We must learn how to use both hands/arms in a way that might not make sense for most people. If we were to use both our hands and arms equally in order to swing or drive the club in the direction we want it to go - our natural athletic tendency is really not geared for that to happen. It would be like walking while swinging your arms in the same direction. That's actually difficult to do! In fact it actually feels really strange doing it and likely will throw your off balance a little,  but of course our bodies are pretty good at recovering from being off-balance and disguising it. Yet, amateur golfers typically will try to swing and power their golf swing using both hands/arms moving in the same direction. This usually causes a weak wiping or slapping impact action with an open clubface. The club is usually held with a death grip and the club doesn't have a meaningful 'release' where the club quickly gets from one side of the golfer's two hands to the other side of his two hands. So, how should it be done? The answer is rather simple - the hands must provide opposing force. Opposing force should be your friend from the moment you start the backstroke and throughout the downstroke to the flash action of the release which to your amazement will become automatic.

 

The grip method used must have the lifeline of the trail hand placed on the base of the lead hand's thumb whereby a straightening trail arm maintains a straight lead arm and straightening the trail arm is responsible for powering the golf swing.  When you get it right, the golf swing becomes naturally easy and remarkably repetitive and the results, mind-boggling.  

 

I hope this helps...      

 

 

 

             

Is this pressure on the grip in the backswing and downswing constant or only during certain times? 
 

Also thanks you for all of your insight and knowledge!!

[GreatStrike]

On 6/15/2023 at 9:42 AM, Zitlow said:

I took lessons from a driving range pro who told me to pull with my left shoulder and arm, ended up with a terrible case of handle dragging and an awful chase move with my head. 

 

 

 

 

@Zitlow - What you were taught is exactly what causes the problem that 99% of all amateurs experience. It's very troubling to see people struggle when the correct method is so simple. 

 

If I handed you a long handled flat paddle that is weighted out on the far end and told you to hold its unweighted end with your left hand, with your mission is to swing the paddle's weighted end to apply the maximum force possible onto (against) as force sensor - what type of method (a or b) would you think makes the most sense to succeed in your mission? 

 

(a) - Hold the paddle handle at the unweighted end with your left hand and swing the weighted end of the paddle with your non-dominant arm powered by your left shoulder and body rotation.

(b) - Hold the paddle handle at the unweighted end with your left hand and with your right hand grip the handle slightly closer to the weighted end and drive the weighted end of the paddle by straightening your right arm like a powerful piston to make the weighted end of the paddle swing in a circular arc and orbit to smash against the force sensor just before the right arm becomes fully straightened.

 

Here's the problem:

Method (a) is going to be a weak slap that drags the weighted end of the paddle behind, lacking any real force that is applied to the sensor. Additionally, this method will likely cause the flat part of the paddle to be open (not square) when the paddle slaps the sensor, further diminishing its force potential. Moreover, this inferior method typically has the weighted end of the paddle traveling a shortened path directly at the intended contact object (force sensor / golf ball) instead of traveling in a circular orbit that is needed to build speed which equates to force.          

 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by GreatStrike

[GreatStrike]

2 hours ago, tilasan said:

Is this pressure on the grip in the backswing and downswing constant or only during certain times? 
 

Also thanks you for all of your insight and knowledge!!

 

@tilasan - The right hand's lifeline applies a constant pushing pressure against the base part of the left thumb (upper part of left thumb or metacarpal thumb bone). This provides swing width and keeps the left arm straight which is needed for the club to be swung in a circular arc and orbit. The left hand and right hand finger grip on the handle remains constantly solid and consistently firm throughout the swing.

 

The beginning of the backstroke starts with a pushing outward of the right arm (right hand lifeline against the left thumb) which straightens the left arm to provide a solid triangular structure (of the two arms with both shoulders). 

 

Watch Jack Nicklaus' make his backswing in the video below and I think you will see him pushing outward with his right arm to start his backswing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by GreatStrike

[GreatStrike]

@tilasan - Many golfers have stumbled upon a wonderful, surprising event when making a swing on a sidehill lie with the ball slightly above their feet. It's a confounding phenomenon and something you can learn from if you learn ahead of time why it happens.   

 

This situation - of making a swing on a sidehill lie with the ball slightly above their feet - oftentimes makes the golfer subconsciously and unknowingly use his right (trail) arm correctly in his downswing by straightening (extending) it straight outwards like a piston toward 1st base which promotes the golfer to actually make a sound swing that is circular in which his club follows a proper orbital path in lieu of his typical downward path directly toward the ball.  He will marvel at the result of the solid impact compression sound, pro-like trajectory and the soft draw of the shot he just hit, and even though his swing was just a split-second ago he is totally dumbfounded by what he did to make it happen...wishing he could duplicate whatever he did for every swing. The feel of in his hands and body are unlike what he feels with his regular swing. 

 

Experiment by hitting balls from a sidehill lie with the ball slightly above your feet and key on (think about) straightening your trail arm like a piston with the right hand lifeline pushing against the base of your left thumb and feel the result of the club traveling in a desirable circular path and orbit.  Intentionally control your shaft lean and clubface loft with your much more dexterous and proficient right hand. Learn to use that right arm like a piston...  

[tilasan]

23 minutes ago, GreatStrike said:

@tilasan - Many golfers have stumbled upon a wonderful, surprising event when making a swing on a sidehill lie with the ball slightly above their feet. It's a confounding phenomenon and something you can learn from if you learn ahead of time why it happens.   

 

This situation - of making a swing on a sidehill lie with the ball slightly above their feet - oftentimes makes the golfer subconsciously and unknowingly use his right (trail) arm correctly in his downswing by straightening (extending) it straight outwards like a piston toward 1st base which promotes the golfer to actually make a sound swing that is circular in which his club follows a proper orbital path in lieu of his typical downward path directly toward the ball.  He will marvel at the result of the solid impact compression sound, pro-like trajectory and the soft draw of the shot he just hit, and even though his swing was just a split-second ago he is totally dumbfounded by what he did to make it happen...wishing he could duplicate whatever he did for every swing. The feel of in his hands and body are unlike what he feels with his regular swing. 

 

Experiment by hitting balls from a sidehill lie with the ball slightly above your feet and key on (think about) straightening your trail arm like a piston with the right hand lifeline pushing against the base of your left thumb and feel the result of the club traveling in a desirable circular path and orbit.  Intentionally control your shaft lean and clubface loft with your much more dexterous and proficient right hand. Learn to use that right arm like a piston...  

When you say right arm like a piston that is just the straightening of it? Any other examples of the right arm movement?

[GreatStrike]

2 hours ago, tilasan said:

When you say right arm like a piston that is just the straightening of it? Any other examples of the right arm movement?

 

The right arm should straighten from the right shoulder straight outward toward 1st base, not downward or toward the target. Once the push on the left thumb starts driving the swing in a circular orbit the orbit will naturally move in a downward and toward the target formation because your left shoulder from which the straight left arm swings is the swing's center radius point.  

 

A golfer using a 'hitting' action method extends the trail arm (see image below) straight outward using the tricep in a push thrust manner - a method or procedure that will pull (swing) the golf club in a structured downstroke arc and circular orbit. Pushing literally accomplishes a pulling (swing) action (reaction). 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by GreatStrike

[tilasan]

1 hour ago, GreatStrike said:

 

The right arm should straighten from the right shoulder straight outward toward 1st base, not downward or toward the target. Once the push on the left thumb starts driving the swing in a circular orbit the orbit will naturally move in a downward and toward the target formation because your left shoulder from which the straight left arm swings is the swing's center radius point.  

 

 

Thank you so much!!!

[KMeloney]

2 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

The right arm should straighten from the right shoulder straight outward toward 1st base, not downward or toward the target. Once the push on the left thumb starts driving the swing in a circular orbit the orbit will naturally move in a downward and toward the target formation because your left shoulder from which the straight left arm swings is the swing's center radius point.  

 

 

 

Where is "first base" from the golfer's set up to the ball?

[GreatStrike]

16 hours ago, KMeloney said:

 

Where is "first base" from the golfer's set up to the ball?

 

@KMeloney - The golfer's chest is facing 1st base at set up/address. The natural tendency of most amateur golfers is to force their club (and their trail arm) downward to the ball and toward their target. That naturally instinctive intention causes all sorts of problems. The trail arm needs to be extended straight out from the shoulder like a piston driving it out to 1st base. 

 

By straightening the right arm out toward 1st base the golfer pushes his right hand's lifeline on the base of his left thumb which in-turn moves or drives the golf club. This movement of the golf club - surprisingly to most - actually becomes a pulling action made by the left hand's grip on the handle, which is literally made possible by the reaction from the golfer's right arm pushing straight out to 1st base from the shoulder.

 

That's the concept a golfer needs to experience himself firsthand - that his right arm 'pushing' actually creates a 'pulling' reaction/movement that makes for a very effective, wonderfully sound golf swing. 

This Eric Cogorno video gives a good starting point to understanding how the pushing (extending/straightening) outward of the right arm literally drives the straight left arm into a perfect circular arc to make a very effective and desirable golf swing.  Hopefully you can sense this when you see Eric's nice golf swing as he displays and explains how pushing with the right arm keeps the left arm straight and drives the circular orbital swing.

 

The swing's circular form will (must) move downward simply because the straight left arm is attached to the left shoulder. The two straight arms and the shoulder-to-should line form a triangle structure that is actually driven by the straightening of the right arm.       

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by GreatStrike
orthography

[GreatStrike]

 

 

Rory's right arm pushing (straightening) on left thumb to start backswing.

  

 

Rory's right arm straightens straight out to 1st base which applies right hand 'leverage' force on the side of the handle to drive the swing in a circular path.

   

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by GreatStrike
orthography

[GreatStrike]

 

Here are three videos that offer some degree of perspective pertaining to the use of the right (trail) arm pushing straight out.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by GreatStrike
orthography

[Carlito]

9 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

That's the concept a golfer needs to experience himself firsthand - that his right arm 'pushing' creates a 'pulling' reaction/movement that makes a very effective, wonderfully sound golf swing. 

GreatStrike, nice to see you are back to business. 

Btw, i am an  online-student of Eric Cogorno. The straight left arm is not negotiable but also so hard work. 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Carlito

[GreatStrike]

Quote

That's the concept a golfer needs to experience himself firsthand - that his right arm 'pushing' actually creates a 'pulling' reaction/movement that makes for a very effective, wonderfully sound golf swing. 

 

It's understandable to be confused by the idea (concept) of straightening the trail arm straight out from the shoulder toward 1st base. You are probably wondering how in the world is straightening my right arm out toward 1st base going get my club swinging on-plane and down  to the ball. You're probably thinking your swing plane will be horizontally flat. This is yet another confounding and confusing segment of a sound golf swing that makes it so difficult for most people to learn and become proficient at.  Their natural instinct is unwilling to yield to allowing this concept to be accepted. When this happens they keep trying what has always failed for them in the past. Their incorrect perception is stronger than their willingness to accept reality.     

 

What takes place when your right arm pushes (straightens) straight out toward 1st base - which literally causes this inexplicable strong pulling action into a forceful circular orbit - is nicely concealed by the very fact that your left arm is merely an innately or borrowed 'unpowered' part of your body that is used for one leg of a three-legged triangular structure, consisting of the two arms and shoulder-to-shoulder line.  Your left arm is nothing more than a stretched rope (being stretched by the right arm pushing on the base of left thumb) and this right arm pushing straight out from the shoulder action drives the three-sided triangular structure form like it is an apparatus driven by machine with your dominate right arm being the machine's power source. 

 

The reason the swing immediately becomes tilted and on-plane (instead of flat or horizontal) is because at the start of the downstroke the left arm is angled from its shoulder across the golfer's chest with the left hand firmly on the club's handle with the right hand almost on top of the left hand. This forms a compressed triangular shape or form. The golfer's right arm is bent at about 90° which makes one leg of a the already compressed triangle (due to the left arm being across the chest) both small in physical shape and compressed on one side. When the right arm starts straightening the ill-shaped triangle starts to open up and this tilts the triangle to an inclined plane. As the three-legged compressed triangle form starts opening up as the right arm pushes outward the arms/shoulder triangle will rotate around, and one point of the triangle must rotate down - that one point that rotates down is where the hands are holding the club's handle. The club's weighted mass is out beyond the hands and is flung precisely into the golf ball, guided by the skillful and strong dexterous use of the dominant right hand and arm.           

 

Think of the push movement that causes a pulling action to be somewhat akin to the results you get with a window blind pulley - you pull down on window blind cord and the blind moves upward. That may be confusing to someone the first time it's done, but it's not confusing once you accept that that's how it works! There is no secret - it's just a matter of learning the technique. 

 

The triangle at the top of the backswing is made up of the 'stretched' left arm remaining straight but across and close to the chest, forming one leg of the triangle, the right arm bent at about 90 degrees, forming another side of the triangle, while the shoulders form the third side. With the left arm across the chest and the right arm bent at 90 degrees the triangle at the top of the backswing is compressed and one leg (the right arm) is bent. But straightening the right arm straight outwards forcefully opens the triangle and drives it to rapidly rotate on an inclined plane, flailing the clubhead in a circular path into the golf ball.      

 

You might be able to discern how the golfer straightening his right arm will both open up and rotate his 'at the top' compressed and small triangle.      

 

 

 

   

Edited December 19, 2023 by GreatStrike
orthography

[GreatStrike]

 

@Carlito - To refresh your memory, here are the notes applicable to 'Hitting" (use of the right arm) that you will likely find very helpful. I have used bold red to identify certain parts of the notes to help them stand out because I believe they are most important to digest and refer back to if needed.

 

Hitting

 

Muscular Thrust:
Unlike the Swinger who manipulates centrifugal force, the pure Hitter ONLY uses his right arm to activate the Primary Lever Assembly (that is the Left Arm plus the club as a whole). Whereas Swinging is about dragging (pulling) the club Hitting is about driving (pushing) the club - yet with the hitting method the clubhead lags behind the  force, so there's that to contemplate. 

 

When hitting the muscle involved here is the right triceps as it is responsible for straightening the right arm. The main action involved here is a muscular thrust of the right arm to the base of the left thumb (PP#1) which drives against the Primary Lever Assembly (that is the Left Arm plus the club as a whole).

 

The clubhead is not thrown into orbit by the pivot like with a Swinger, instead the Hitter pushes radially against the radius - against the shaft with his right arm only onto the base of his left thumb (PP#1). Think of it like pushing against one spoke of a bicycle wheel to put the wheel into motion – Swinging would make you drag the rim of the wheel.

 

The proper action is to straighten the right arm without flattening the bent right wrist in a piston like action. The right wrist bend is maintained from address ‘impact fix’ to where both arms are straight. The Hitter must refrain from intentionally moving or driving his hands from his right-to-left in front of his body and toward the target (this is a bad habit of amateurs that causes poor swings).  

Address: Impact Fix:
It all starts at address – the Hitter usually sets up with his hands in a position that is called ‘Impact Fix’. This position, while not mandatory, allows for an easier pickup of the Primary Lever Assembly as a whole by the right arm (the right forearm takeaway). Also it establishes the proper impact alignments right away which includes a bent back right wrist that must be maintained through impact. From this position all you have to do is to freeze your wrists into their position and move the whole thing back and forth with your right arm pretty much in a piston like motion. A good way to feel this motion is, without a club, to hold your left wrist with your right hand and move your left arm back and forth. This is the principle of the Hitting motion.

 

Half Roll of the clubface:
Due to the way the club is moved, the clubface doesn’t open as much as the Swinging motion during the backswing and doesn’t close as much in the downstroke. Consequently, Hitting naturally produces what is called a ‘Half Roll’ of the clubface: When you look at the clubface at both arms straight, you should see the clubface looking 45 degrees left (for righties) instead of 90 degrees left in the Swinging motion (full roll, clubface closed). This ‘Half Roll’ of the clubface produces a no-roll feel which is very important to note as you might intuitively search to feel a roll. This Half Roll also has a natural fade tendency. As a consequence, the Hitter tends to adopt a stronger grip position to counterbalance that effect and produce straight shots. You should also take into account that the more forward the ball in your stance (Driver for example), the more the need for a slightly closed face and/or a stronger grip because of the more layback of the clubface is at this point. Experiment with your grip to find the correct amount of shut face to induce.

 

Face constantly looking at the ball:
Another interesting fact is the way the clubface swivels during the swing. Unlike the Swinger whose clubface almost immediately swivels against the plane of the swing, the Hitter doesn’t rotate the clubface but rather keeps it ‘looking at the ball’ during the backswing. The clubface stays at right angles against the face of the plane. This is the natural byproduct of the angled hinge and you must not intend to rotate it clockwise/open on the backswing or you will have to consciously rotate it back counterclockwise on the downswing for proper contact.
 

Backstroke (DEVELOP THRUST):
The backstroke of a  Hitter begins from 'impact fix' with the right arm pushing against the base of the left thumb (PP#1) to apply a push force which extends (straightens) the left arm and moves the arm/club structure to the top of the backstroke. It is imperative to have the right wrist in a bent-back condition to carry it in that same bent-back position throughout the backstroke and downstroke. The left arm resists the right arm’s push motion against the base of the left thumb (PP#1) to form a solid structure of the arm/club unit as it moves into the backstroke. This is the loading process that develops THRUST! The left arm resisting the right arm's push motion provides an extended (straight) left arm that will naturally be driven downward in the downstroke by the right arm thrusting straight outward from the launching pad that is the right shoulder. The straight left arm, although inert, is very important to the right arm as it acts as a checkrein, preventing the right arm from bending too much when accumulating its thrust power when folding at the elbow. The straight left arm also helps to guide the hands into impact when releasing the right arm's stored thrust power. The golfer moves his right shoulder (which is a launching pad for the thrusting right arm) down plane at start down to get it closer to the ball so he does not run out of right arm before impact.  

 

Establishing the Lag: Drive Loading:
You will discover that the piston like action of the right arm produces a shorter backswing than the Swinger due to the position of the right elbow set to push against the shaft instead of pulling. From there, usually the hands cannot go higher than shoulder high – which is called the Top. But, from such a shorter backstroke, the tendency is to rush on the downstroke. Make sure you give yourself enough time to transition from Top to Start Down and accomplish the necessary Drive Loading.

 

Drive Loading:
For the Hitter, an efficient way to establish Lag - is to resist the backstroke motion (by the right arm pushing against the base of the left thumb (PP#1) that extends the left arm), then perform a right arm thrust (straight out from the right shoulder's launching pad that has moved down plane to get closer to the ball) against the lagging clubhead and the resulting stressed/loaded clubshaft - striving to accelerate the stressed/loaded clubshaft with a slow and heavy start-down through impact to where both arms are straight. The Downstroke Pivot of the Hitter 'is' the Right Shoulder. The 'Hitter' does not need to rotate his body like a swinger must. The Right Shoulder must also provide the initial acceleration of the Power Package (Shoulders, Arms, Hands and Club). But beware! Since there is no torso pivot rotation like a swinger, you only have your bent right arm to provide the needed impetus (THRUST) to drive the arm/club structure. So, if the right arm begins to straighten too soon, you will have triggered the release, and you will run out of right arm before impact and produce Clubhead Throwaway. 

 

Slow Start Down;
For the Hitter a Slow Start Down is mandatory to allow for the right arm to properly get into position. In the transition from the Top to Start Down think Slow and Heavy.

 

Right Arm Straightens (Straight Out):
The Hitter’s right arm thrust is a straightening (straight out from the shoulder's launching pad) of the right arm at the elbow. This thrust force of the right arm causes the left hand to move away from the right shoulder which in turn drives the resisting hands downward which in turn drives the arm/club structure in the downstroke The Hitter must refrain from intentionally moving or driving his hands toward the target (this is a bad habit of amateurs that causes poor swings).

 

Pivot Action:
The Pivot (the body) of the Hitter doesn’t perform the blast of the left arm off the chest like that of a Swinger. Instead the purpose of the body pivot for a Hitter is to put the right shoulder into position (closer to the ball - down plane) as a platform to push against. Think of a sprinter pushing against his starting-blocks. In the Hitting stroke, you have to move your right shoulder down plane to get it closer to the ball and deliver the right arm thrust. Moving the right shoulder down plane closer to the ball prevents the golfer from running out of right arm before impact.  

 

 

Power Accumulators for Hitting:

You’ll use 3 power accumulators but will only have to think of using just one

The key power accumulator is PA#1):

► Power Accumulator #1: Straighten out (straight out) thrust of the right arm 
Power Accumulator #2: The uncocking of the left wrist
Power Accumulator #3: The rotation of the entire left  
► PA#2 & PA#3 happens automatically with the action and motion of PA#1

 

Pressure Points for Hitting:
You’ll use 3 pressure points:

The key pressure point is PP#1
► Pressure Point #1: The palm of your right hand against the aft section of the grip and the base of your left thumb.
Pressure Point #2: The last 3 fingers of your left hand.
Pressure Point #3: The index/trigger finger of the right hand resisting against the club wanting to stay behind.

 

 

 

[GreatStrike]

On 12/18/2023 at 3:17 PM, KMeloney said:

 

Where is "first base" from the golfer's set up to the ball?

 

@KMeloney - The reason I say to straighten the right arm, straight out from the shoulder toward 1st base is this. Invariably (almost without doubt) the amateur golfer will attempt to direct his clubhead (a) down toward the ball with (b) arm momentum moving toward his target. Doing that totally negates any chance his swing will lead to travelling in a circular arc and path, which is needed for both speed and precise orbital consistency. 

 

When getting a weight on the end of a string started swinging around into orbit, you know how you must make a wide circular arc and path at the beginning of your swing action. A short jab with no width isn't going to build any speed or energy. It's the same with a golf swing - you need width and a driving connection on the club's handle to get it swinging in a circular orbit.

 

The golfer that forces his clubhead to make a direct bee-line at the ball with his arm momentum forced toward the target is simply not going to have much speed, much force, much precision of contact or control of his clubface.       

 

So, understand that by intentionally trying to extend (straighten) the right arm out toward 1st base the golfer will actually have his right arm straightening and moving in a perfect slot needed to drive the left arm and his trailing clubhead into a powerful wide circular orbit so it can be run into the ball with pinpoint sweet spot accuracy, with total consistently on every swing.  And, like swinging a weight around on the end of a string, massive clubhead speed is so obscure and easy to achieve that it can be perplexing to an onlooker. Is your right arm really going to fire like a piston straight out from your shoulder's launching pad? Well, realize that your upper body is tiled over somewhat from the hips so that is going to naturally have the right arm moving a bit downward when you intentionally straighten it straight out from the shoulder's launching pad toward 1st base. But you need to prevent the right arm from traveling down much at all. It'll go down with the arms/shoulders triangle rotating. Think of this 'out to 1st base' as a technique or a concealed personal method to make a sound swing possible!

 

At impact the right arm is a microsecond from being fully extended. Delofting and shaft lean control at impact is made precisely and easily with the right hand and its bent back right wrist condition driving force on the shaft.                

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by GreatStrike
orthography

[Carlito]

13 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

The proper action is to straighten the right arm without flattening the bent right wrist in a piston like action. The right wrist bend is maintained from address ‘impact fix’ to where both arms are straight.

Maintaining the bent right wrist!  If you lose it to soon it was waste of time. 

 

Twist Loading

 

Quote

GreatStrike: The wrist c0ck process is made up of right wrist bending-back, right wrist cocking or hinging, and (finally as the last action) a further twisting of the right hand where the right hand is rolled or twisted so the palm points more skyward in lieu of just pointing outward. The final 'twisting' where the palm is twisted to face more skyward completes the wrist c0ck set process and is similar to the analogy of setting or latching the hammer on a revolver. The right wrist is now locked and loaded - ready to fire!

 

Everyone feels it different. But you have to find your proper way to bring the bent right wrist through the hitting area. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Carlito

[GreatStrike]

8 hours ago, Carlito said:

Maintaining the bent right wrist!  If you lose it to soon it was waste of time. 

 

Twist Loading

 

 

Everyone feels it different. But you have to find your proper way to bring the bent right wrist through the hitting area. 

 

@Carlito -  You are conflating a topic that has nothing to do with right side 'hitting'.  You quoted a segment about 'twist loading' that was discussed and is intended for a 'swinging' action golf swing which typically has a significant amount of right wrist twisting movement due to the swing being a lead arm type swing with a significant amount of passive wrist c0ck - something a right side 'hitting' action golf swing does not have, nor is it something a 'hitter' wants to happen.

 

The maintained bent-back right wrist in a 'hitting' golf swing has very little twist movement throughout the backstroke and downstroke with only minor twisting at the top due to shaft loading. Given some repetition experience and self-education the golfer using his right side (arm and hand) will learn that it is easy to maintain a bent-back right wrist throughout the backstroke and downstroke, and quite exhilarating to govern the desired amount of shaft lean and delofting through impact he wants. That is when the amateur golfer no longer is puzzled by how the pros remarkably do what they do - and becomes a talented golfer in their own right!   

 

       

Edited December 20, 2023 by GreatStrike
orthography

[KMeloney]

22 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

@KMeloney - The reason I say to straighten the right arm, straight out from the shoulder toward 1st base is this. Invariably (almost without doubt) the amateur golfer will attempt to direct his clubhead (a) down toward the ball with (b) arm momentum moving toward his target. Doing that totally negates any chance his swing will lead to travelling in a circular arc and path, which is needed for both speed and precise orbital consistency. 

 

When getting a weight on the end of a string started swinging around into orbit, you know how you must make a wide circular arc and path at the beginning of your swing action. A short jab with no width isn't going to build any speed or energy. It's the same with a golf swing - you need width and a driving connection on the club's handle to get it swinging in a circular orbit.

 

The golfer that forces his clubhead to make a direct bee-line at the ball with his arm momentum forced toward the target is simply not going to have much speed, much force, much precision of contact or control of his clubface.       

 

So, understand that by intentionally trying to extend (straighten) the right arm out toward 1st base the golfer will actually have his right arm straightening and moving in a perfect slot needed to drive the left arm and his trailing clubhead into a powerful wide circular orbit so it can be run into the ball with pinpoint sweet spot accuracy, with total consistently on every swing.  And, like swinging a weight around on the end of a string, massive clubhead speed is so obscure and easy to achieve that it can be perplexing to an onlooker. Is your right arm really going to fire like a piston straight out from your shoulder's launching pad? Well, realize that your upper body is tiled over somewhat from the hips so that is going to naturally have the right arm moving a bit downward when you intentionally straighten it straight out from the shoulder's launching pad toward 1st base. But you need to prevent the right arm from traveling down much at all. It'll go down with the arms/shoulders triangle rotating. Think of this 'out to 1st base' as a technique or a concealed personal method to make a sound swing possible!

 

At impact the right arm is a microsecond from being fully extended. Delofting and shaft lean control at impact is made precisely and easily with the right hand and its bent back right wrist condition driving force on the shaft.                

 

 

 

 

 

 

With the hitting swing being shorter than the swinging swing, maybe this question is moot, since maybe the club doesn't get as far behind the player... But, is the intent to "wait" to start the straightening of the trail arm until it can be done toward 1st base (until the trail shoulder is back to a position when it presents the arm move toward 1st base), or should this straightening move feel like it's happening "from the top"?

[GolfSwang]

On 12/4/2023 at 2:47 PM, GreatStrike said:

So, you may be asking how is that done. There must be a constant push force from the right hand palm applied against the 'base' of the left thumb to provide the width all sound golf swings have, and this provides a degree of needed tension all sound golf swings have. From this - train and educate the right hand and arm to control the swing....and train and educate the right hand to control the clubface. The objective is to experience what - straightening the right arm straight outward toward 1st base (NOT DOWN) like a piston - does for your swing in terms of driving the club 'around' the circle. It's imperative to maintain a pushing force on the 'base' of the left thumb with the palm of the right hand as you learn and see the positive results it produces.   

 

      

 

Very interesting visual/intention (1st base). 

I tried the hitter method previously, but still couldn't achieve shaft lean and proper compression. I must have missed the "1st base" point if you mentioned it previously, as I was focusing more on extending the right arm down and/or towards the ball (or just ahead of it).

I'll work on the 1st base direction next time. I so desperately want this hitter idea to work/stick, as it seems so simple and suits my right side/hand dominant nature. Cheers

Edited December 20, 2023 by GolfSwang

[GreatStrike]

5 hours ago, KMeloney said:

 

With the hitting swing being shorter than the swinging swing, maybe this question is moot, since maybe the club doesn't get as far behind the player... But, is the intent to "wait" to start the straightening of the trail arm until it can be done toward 1st base (until the trail shoulder is back to a position when it presents the arm move toward 1st base), or should this straightening move feel like it's happening "from the top"?

 

@KMeloney - The highlighted portions below should answer your questions... From the Top to Start Down think Slow and Heavy.

 

Your right shoulder 'is' your pivot and moves closer to the ball - down plane as a platform to push against like as a rocket's launching pad or a sprinter's starting block. Even Usain Bolt needs a starting block!

 

 

 

Drive Loading:
For the Hitter, an efficient way to establish Lag - is to resist the backstroke motion (by the right arm pushing against the base of the left thumb (PP#1) that extends the left arm), then perform a right arm thrust (straight out from the right shoulder's launching pad that has moved down plane to get closer to the ball) against the lagging clubhead and the resulting stressed/loaded clubshaft - striving to accelerate the stressed/loaded clubshaft with a slow and heavy start-down through impact to where both arms are straight. The Downstroke Pivot of the Hitter 'is' the Right Shoulder. The 'Hitter' does not need to rotate his body like a swinger must. The Right Shoulder must also provide the initial acceleration of the Power Package (Shoulders, Arms, Hands and Club). But beware! Since there is no torso pivot rotation like a swinger, you only have your bent right arm to provide the needed impetus (THRUST) to drive the arm/club structure. So, if the right arm begins to straighten too soon, you will have triggered the release, and you will run out of right arm before impact and produce Clubhead Throwaway. 

 

Slow Start Down;
For the Hitter a Slow Start Down is mandatory to allow for the right arm to properly get into position. In the transition from the Top to Start Down think Slow and Heavy.

 

Right Arm Straightens (Straight Out):
The Hitter’s right arm thrust is a straightening (straight out from the shoulder's launching pad) of the right arm at the elbow. This thrust force of the right arm causes the left hand to move away from the right shoulder which in turn drives the resisting hands downward which in turn drives the arm/club structure in the downstroke. 

 

►The Hitter must refrain from intentionally moving or driving his club or hands at the ball or toward the target (this is a bad habit of amateurs that causes poor swings).

 

Pivot Action:
The Pivot (the body) of the Hitter doesn’t perform the blast of the left arm off the chest like that of a Swinger. Instead the purpose of the body pivot for a Hitter is to put the right shoulder into position (closer to the ball - down plane) as a platform to push against. Think of a sprinter pushing against his starting-blocks. In the Hitting stroke, you have to move your right shoulder down plane to get it closer to the ball and deliver the right arm thrust. Moving the right shoulder down plane closer to the ball prevents the golfer from running out of right arm before impact.  

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by GreatStrike
orthography

[GreatStrike]

2 hours ago, GolfSwang said:

 

Very interesting visual/intention (1st base). 

I tried the hitter method previously, but still couldn't achieve shaft lean and proper compression. I must have missed the "1st base" point if you mentioned it previously, as I was focusing more on extending the right arm down and/or towards the ball (or just ahead of it).

I'll work on the 1st base direction next time. I so desperately want this hitter idea to work/stick, as it seems so simple and suits my right side/hand dominant nature. Cheers

 

That is a typical, instinctive, common sense, belief that is guaranteed to destroy any chance of making a sound golf swing. 

 

That is almost equivalent to trying to whirl a weight around on the end of a string by driving your arm down at your feet. The divergence is practically 90 degrees apart from the direction the arm needs to travel. Out - not down!

 

And, don't force the clubhead at the ball. When the swing is done correctly the golfer finds it easy to 'run  the clubhead into the ball' precisely on the sweet spot every time. 

 

Have you ever seen a tour pro's wear mark on the sweet spot of his short and mid irons? That worn spot didn't happen from luck! His swing is like a wide orbiting planet that is just as precise... 

 

Do you think you'd be able to run a small weight whirling around on the end of a string into a golf ball just sitting at rest? Sure you could! You'd have a nice orbital swing of that weight that doesn't deviate more than a tiny fraction of an inch with each orbiting pass. Your golf swing, when done correctly favors that orbit for half a full orbit pass and it's just as precise!      

Edited December 21, 2023 by GreatStrike

[GolfSwang]

8 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

That is a typical, instinctive, common sense, belief that is guaranteed to destroy any chance of making a sound golf swing. 

 

That is almost equivalent to trying to whirl a weight around on the end of a string by driving your arm down at your feet. The divergence is practically 90 degrees apart from the direction the arm needs to travel. Out - not down!

 

And, don't force the clubhead at the ball. When the swing is done correctly the golfer finds it easy to 'run  the clubhead into the ball' precisely on the sweet spot every time. 

 

Have you ever seen a tour pro's wear mark on the sweet spot of his short and mid irons? That worn spot didn't happen from luck! His swing is like a wide orbiting planet that is just as precise... 

 

Do you think you'd be able to run a small weight whirling around on the end of a string into a golf ball just sitting at rest? Sure you could! You'd have a nice orbital swing of that weight that doesn't deviate more than a tiny fraction of an inch with each orbiting pass. Your golf swing, when done correctly favors that orbit for half a full orbit pass and it's just as precise!      

 

After re-reading the entire last page of this thread, I realize I again missed/misinterpreted a key detail about "1st base". 

 

I was initially (incorrectly?) visualizing the golfer standing at homeplate as a RH batter (so 1st base would be 45° left of where the chest is pointing at address).

 

But what you're saying is the golfer is essentially in the middle of the diamond and 1st base it directly in front of the chest! That's a huge difference. Whoops. 

 

So the right arm thrust/extension should be in the direction of the green arrow, NOT the red arrows, correct?

 

Said another way: in your ball above the golfer's feet example, the right arm thrust is essentially aimed directly up the hill then (and not at all towards target)? 

 

Thanks

Edited December 21, 2023 by GolfSwang

[KMeloney]

4 hours ago, GolfSwang said:

 

After re-reading the entire last page of this thread, I realize I again missed/misinterpreted a key detail about "1st base". 

 

I was initially (incorrectly?) visualizing the golfer standing at homeplate as a RH batter (so 1st base would be 45° left of where the chest is pointing at address).

 

But what you're saying is the golfer is essentially in the middle of the diamond and 1st base it directly in front of the chest! That's a huge difference. Whoops. 

 

So the right arm thrust/extension should be in the direction of the green arrow, NOT the red arrows, correct?

 

Said another way: in your ball above the golfer's feet example, the right arm thrust is essentially aimed directly up the hill then (and not at all towards target)? 

 

Thanks

Yeah, this is what I wasn't (am not?) totally clear on. If it's as you've drawn here, then maybe "1st base" isn't a very good analogy. I still need this cleared up, too. (Maybe using a clock face analogy would be clearer for me.)

[KMeloney]

13 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

@KMeloney - The highlighted portions below should answer your questions... From the Top to Start Down think Slow and Heavy.

 

Your right shoulder 'is' your pivot and moves closer to the ball - down plane as a platform to push against like as a rocket's launching pad or a sprinter's starting block. Even Usain Bolt needs a starting block!

 

 

 

Drive Loading:
For the Hitter, an efficient way to establish Lag - is to resist the backstroke motion (by the right arm pushing against the base of the left thumb (PP#1) that extends the left arm), then perform a right arm thrust (straight out from the right shoulder's launching pad that has moved down plane to get closer to the ball) against the lagging clubhead and the resulting stressed/loaded clubshaft - striving to accelerate the stressed/loaded clubshaft with a slow and heavy start-down through impact to where both arms are straight. The Downstroke Pivot of the Hitter 'is' the Right Shoulder. The 'Hitter' does not need to rotate his body like a swinger must. The Right Shoulder must also provide the initial acceleration of the Power Package (Shoulders, Arms, Hands and Club). But beware! Since there is no torso pivot rotation like a swinger, you only have your bent right arm to provide the needed impetus (THRUST) to drive the arm/club structure. So, if the right arm begins to straighten too soon, you will have triggered the release, and you will run out of right arm before impact and produce Clubhead Throwaway. 

 

Slow Start Down;
For the Hitter a Slow Start Down is mandatory to allow for the right arm to properly get into position. In the transition from the Top to Start Down think Slow and Heavy.

 

Right Arm Straightens (Straight Out):
The Hitter’s right arm thrust is a straightening (straight out from the shoulder's launching pad) of the right arm at the elbow. This thrust force of the right arm causes the left hand to move away from the right shoulder which in turn drives the resisting hands downward which in turn drives the arm/club structure in the downstroke. 

 

►The Hitter must refrain from intentionally moving or driving his club or hands at the ball or toward the target (this is a bad habit of amateurs that causes poor swings).

 

Pivot Action:
The Pivot (the body) of the Hitter doesn’t perform the blast of the left arm off the chest like that of a Swinger. Instead the purpose of the body pivot for a Hitter is to put the right shoulder into position (closer to the ball - down plane) as a platform to push against. Think of a sprinter pushing against his starting-blocks. In the Hitting stroke, you have to move your right shoulder down plane to get it closer to the ball and deliver the right arm thrust. Moving the right shoulder down plane closer to the ball prevents the golfer from running out of right arm before impact.  

 

 

 

Thanks for posting that again. It looks familiar, because you've answered this question for me previously -- and I forgot about it. Thank you!

[iacas]

It's almost 2024 and we're still talking about "hitting" versus "swinging"? 😜

 

Also, the first base analogy seems to fail because… the chest and eyes are facing different directions at the top of the backswing. First base, I believe, also moves with the chest, so that the trail arm will throw basically away from the target (and slightly away from the ball) from the top, not out toward the ball as if first base didn't move and was still basically where the ball was.

 

That's to say nothing of the idea of saying "toward first base" is very confusing as almost everyone will understand themselves to be standing at home plate, not hitting toward the outfield from the pitcher's mound.

The latter is what has been implied if not outright said (due to no mention of it moving with the chest), but I really hope it's not what is being said…

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by iacas

[GreatStrike]

2 hours ago, KMeloney said:

Yeah, this is what I wasn't (am not?) totally clear on. If it's as you've drawn here, then maybe "1st base" isn't a very good analogy. I still need this cleared up, too. (Maybe using a clock face analogy would be clearer for me.)

 

It's as simple as having a square stance setup, upper body slightly bent/inclined from the hips and at the start-down you start straightening (extending) the 90° bent right arm you had in the backswing to now a straight outward position from the shoulder with a piston movement by using your right arm triceps muscle.

 

It's the same exact movement of the right arm that takes place when you do push-ups (using both arms) with your chest facing the ground. If you prefer to visualize the right arm extending or pointing outward toward the 1st base umpire who has taken a step back behind him onto the grass, that's fine.

 

It's just that the golfer should not force his right arm to move downward thinking he needs to swing his arms down where the ball is. The right arm will indeed move downward on-plane as the right arm extends to drive the left arm and triangle structure.     

 

      

 

 

 

Extend right arm straight out from shoulder like image below. The chest and head are facing where you will extend the right arm in square setup.  Bent-back right wrist will automatically angle/tilt right arm as shaft lean takes place.  

Edited December 21, 2023 by GreatStrike
orthography

[KMeloney]

17 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's almost 2024 and we're still talking about "hitting" versus "swinging"? 😜

 

Also, the first base analogy seems to fail because… the chest and eyes are facing different directions at the top of the backswing. First base, I believe, also moves with the chest, so that the trail arm will throw basically away from the target (and slightly away from the ball) from the top, not out toward the ball as if first base didn't move and was still basically where the ball was.

 

That's to say nothing of the idea of saying "toward first base" is very confusing as almost everyone will understand themselves to be standing at home plate, not hitting toward the outfield from the pitcher's mound.

The latter is what has been implied if not outright said (due to no mention of it moving with the chest), but I really hope it's not what is being said…

 

I'm definitely not clear on the direction here. For all of the reasons you mentioned, I'd think a clock analogy would be more useful.

[GreatStrike]

1 hour ago, KMeloney said:

I'm definitely not clear on the direction here. For all of the reasons you mentioned, I'd think a clock analogy would be more useful.

 

@KMeloney - I thought you'd understand like most people seem to, but I guess not! So, let's do a clock face analogy and I'll let you decide on a better description of where the right arm extends and points toward.       

 

Okay, let's say in a square setup your shoulder line runs from Noon to 6pm on a clock face as viewed from overhead, with your chest facing 3pm. Your right arm fires straight out away from your square chest that faces 3pm. Your right shoulder is at the 6pm location. Extend the right arm 'straight out' like a piston using the right arm triceps. Where does the right arm point when fired 'straight out'? I'll let you define where it points! I have drawn a red arrow in hopes the direction the right arm is to extend is perfectly clear. Now then, if by chance you still are not clear and you fire the right arm a little tiny bit off from dead straight outward I think maybe you'll probably be able to figure out what works best. Just fire it 'straight out'! And, don't drive the right hand and arm down toward the ground at the ball or out toward the target. Does this do it for you?  

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by GreatStrike
orthography