Do you throw or twist?

[GreatStrike]

12 hours ago, Nels55 said:

You do understand that diva and virtuoso are the same person?

 

Yes, it's obvious by all the videos he's posted over the years using his 'Rude Golf Swing Diva' YouTube account.

 

I guess he enjoys having fun with his callow personality and showing his ho-hum amateur golf swing. 

 

I'm not impressed with his persona or his golf swing.  Very strange fellow indeed. 

 

He adds nothing worthwhile to the discussion about a topic.  

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[ShimJoonW]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Work is not conserved, no. Nor would it make sense, as "conserved" means "remains constant." So… since you start at setup doing basically no work, you'd have to "continue" to do no work if "work" was "conserved."

 

Energy can be conserved, but the human body is not a closed system: within the system, muscles can create forces/energy. Outside of the system, gravity, air resistance, and friction all play a role.

 

Energy is not "conserved" (kept at a constant), nor is angular momentum, etc. in the golf swing, either, as muscles are continually acting.

 

Good evening !

 

The law of conservation of work can be seen in some dynamical movement sports

 

Half pipe ski :

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZSzNx1ND9w?si=aGz_8WEXRaJIOUaY

 

Triple axel :

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f4dL_l5zQo?si=CkGn90r2Fe95dbk2

 

They buckle (shrink) under the momentum built by jumping, etc

 

In golf, the first action to be taken on the downswing after the back swing is to confine the body and arm and transfer the work of the arm swing to the body

 

Therefore, the body and arm swing become one internal system, 

and total amount of work not changed within confinement limit

 

The work produced by the arms is transmitted to the body, but the total amount of work by arm and body, remains unchanged within confinement

 

Confinement creates internal pressure, and again, the arms are brought close to the body, they receive more pressure and expand, allowing the club head to hit the ball

 

A swing that pours force or energy into the club head and ball at the top of the backswing will be ..... another swing (conventional swing) 

Edited March 23, 2024 by ShimJoonW

[johnrobison]

10 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

Yes, that's obvious by all the videos he has posted over the years using his 'Rude Golf Swing Diva' YouTube account.

 

I guess he enjoys having fun with his callow persona and showing his ho-hum amateur golf swing. 

 

I'm not impressed with his persona or his golf swing.   He adds nothing worthwhile to the discussion about a topic.  

 

 

 

I thought the swing looked pretty good but what do I know. Would you post yours, please, so that I can compare what a good swing looks like next to his? I'd rather study good swings but have mistakenly been looking at ho-hum amateurs. Seeing yours would really help. Thanks!

[virtuoso]

10 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

Yes, it's obvious by all the videos he's posted over the years using his 'Rude Golf Swing Diva' YouTube account.

 

I guess he enjoys having fun with his callow personality and showing his ho-hum amateur golf swing. 

 

I'm not impressed with his persona or his golf swing.  Very strange fellow indeed. 

 

He adds nothing worthwhile to the discussion about a topic.  

 

 

 

Oh man, Nels crashed the party. We were dueling wizards there for a bit! You knew, but acted like you didn’t know, while I thought that you probably know, but pretended to act like I didn’t know that you knew. Fun while it lasted.

 

My favorite thing was to come back after one of your extremely detailed descriptions of TGM hitting protocols and tell you it seemed somewhat vague. But, I was having trouble continuing to come up with even stupider things to say each time as I failed to grasp the concept.

[GreatStrike]

@virtuoso - Practicing some lead-side Cf early release, lead wrist breakdown, open face drop-kicking? 😁

 

 

Edited March 23, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[GreatStrike]

47 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

I thought the swing looked pretty good but what do I know. Would you post yours, please, so that I can compare what a good swing looks like next to his? I'd rather study good swings but have mistakenly been looking at ho-hum amateurs. Seeing yours would really help. Thanks!

 

Stay tuned! 👍

[iacas]

8 hours ago, ShimJoonW said:

The law of conservation of work can be seen in some dynamical movement sports

 

You misunderstood, @ShimJoonW: there's literally no such thing.

 

8 hours ago, ShimJoonW said:

The work produced by the arms is transmitted to the body, but the total amount of work by arm and body, remains unchanged within confinement

 

Could we please spare ourselves another thread with horribly misguided physics?

 

The body isn't a closed system, and any time "conservation" of anything is brought up… it's usually really far off base.

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, GreatStrike said:

@virtuoso - Practicing some lead-side Cf early release, lead wrist breakdown, open face drop-kicking? 😁

 

 

Since I have to be serious now, yes I’m a swinger for sure. That video is isolating the torso rotation after I’ve tried to make a big pelvis slide left. So, my moto is slide the hips and then sling the arms at it. Slide and flip in a nutshell. But…..I do try to manage the wrist alignments both back and down with the trail arm.

[GreatStrike]

Here's Martin Borgmeier, Open World Champion Professional Long Driver with a record 520-yard launch.

 

This video was taken at the 400 Yard Golden Bear Driving Range (now Highlands Performance Golf Center) in Carrollton, Texas where he was launching drives into a slight wind over 400 yards. 

 

While Martin is not a tour pro or typical amateur with a sound golf swing he's a good example of someone who has a definite right-side dominant Cp golf swing. 

 

It happens fast, but watch how he moves his right shoulder slightly down plane before he extends his right arm outward like a piston to drive the left arm/club structure in a curved motion circular arc. Watch how he maintains his right wrist bend for forward shaft lean and to delofting the clubface (especially with irons) that has only a half roll of release of his right wrist/lower forearm through impact. These elements are indicative of a right side dominant golf swing using primarily his right arm to drive the arms/club structure in a curved motion circular arc.

 

I'm pretty sure he could care less if someone thinks there's no such thing as swinging and hitting - he's gonna HIT! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[ShimJoonW]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

You misunderstood, @ShimJoonW: there's literally no such thing.

 

 

Could we please spare ourselves another thread with horribly misguided physics?

 

The body isn't a closed system, and any time "conservation" of anything is brought up… it's usually really far off base.

 

Case1 The law of conservation of work applies even when the club head impacts the ball

 

Case 2 If the helicopter does not have tail rotor, the fuselage rotates by momentum induced by main rotator

 

C1. means a separate system

C2. is a rotation that occurs because the rotor and fuselage are not separated 

 

Confinement in golf is an easy but difficult movement that a golfer makes from address to impact

 

And it is not a necessary movement depending on the swing pattern; it is the golfer's choice , not happen by itself

[Gsea]

2 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

Stay tuned! 👍

what's the over under when this will happen:)

[ShimJoonW]

32 minutes ago, ShimJoonW said:

 

Case1 The law of conservation of work applies even when the club head impacts the ball

 

Case 2 If the helicopter does not have tail rotor, the fuselage rotates by momentum induced by main rotator

 

C1. means a separate system

C2. is a rotation that occurs because the rotor and fuselage are not separated 

 

Confinement in golf is an easy but difficult movement that a golfer makes from address to impact

 

And it is not a necessary movement depending on the swing pattern; it is the golfer's choice , not happen by itself

 

Now spring has come here

 

As an average golfer, I wanted to check my swing, but I was disappointed

 

I like a beer during a round

 

I like the United States that helped me after the war, and I am very grateful to them

 

Still, this feeling doesn't change

Edited March 23, 2024 by ShimJoonW

[GreatStrike]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Since I have to be serious now, yes I’m a swinger for sure. That video is isolating the torso rotation after I’ve tried to make a big pelvis slide left. So, my moto is slide the hips and then sling the arms at it. Slide and flip in a nutshell. But…..I do try to manage the wrist alignments both back and down with the trail arm.

 

Managing the flip is a pretty good description of a typical mid-handicap swinger's golf swing. 

 

If you don't care to give it a go using your trail side right arm to drive the left arm and club, you might want to try experimenting with stretching the clubshaft longitudinally for swinging. Mixing elements of swinging with incorrect hitting is like mixing oil and water. It just doesn't work out. Sadly, that's a typical amateur's golf swing - a mix of both, which destroys any chance of an orbital swinging action.  

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[Soloman1]

47 minutes ago, ShimJoonW said:

 

Case1 The law of conservation of work applies even when the club head impacts the ball

 

Case 2 If the helicopter does not have tail rotor, the fuselage rotates by momentum induced by main rotator

 

C1. means a separate system

C2. is a rotation that occurs because the rotor and fuselage are not separated 

 

Confinement in golf is an easy but difficult movement that a golfer makes from address to impact

 

And it is not a necessary movement depending on the swing pattern; it is the golfer's choice , not happen by itself

 

energy, not work, is the usual unit used for the total system. there are forces and torques in the system that do no work.

Edited March 23, 2024 by Soloman1

[GreatStrike]

34 minutes ago, Gsea said:

what's the over under when this will happen:)

 

There's no telling when it will happen. You'll just have to stay tuned to find out... 

[virtuoso]

34 minutes ago, GreatStrike said:

 

Managing the flip is a pretty good description of a typical mid-handicap swinger's golf swing. 

 

If you don't care to give it a go using your trail side right arm to drive the left arm and club, you might want to try experimenting with stretching the clubshaft longitudinally for swinging. Mixing elements of swinging with hitting is like mixing oil and water. It just doesn't work out. Sadly, that's a typical amateur's golf swing - a mix of both, which destroys any chance of an orbital swinging action.  

 

 

 

I already do that. The left shoulder joint is useless for controlling the behavior of the left arm. The right arm is managing the structure and throw out of both hands away from the shifting/rotating pivot. The proprioception of the right hand (acting as a sensor) is what allows me to reverse engineer the pivot behavior such that the energy generated in the pivot is fed out to the radius of the orbiting clubhead in a predictable and precise way.

 

added: I’d go farther and state that using deltoids, etc at the left shoulder joint to manage the arm swing is one of the single most destructive things you can do to your golf swing. It sets off a horrid set of events.

Edited March 23, 2024 by virtuoso

[GreatStrike]

8 hours ago, virtuoso said:

I already do that. The left shoulder joint is useless for controlling the behavior of the left arm. The right arm is managing the structure and throw out of both hands away from the shifting/rotating pivot. The proprioception of the right hand (acting as a sensor) is what allows me to reverse engineer the pivot behavior such that the energy generated in the pivot is fed out to the radius of the orbiting clubhead in a predictable and precise way.

 

I suspect you're putting a significant amount of force onto the side of the shaft/grip which levers the club. What's nice about straightening the trail arm with its push-out force applied onto the big knuckle of the lead hand (slightly above the couple point) - the force is along the shaft, not against the shaft. You either want push-out force down along the shaft or a longitudinally pulling force - both induce a swinging action. A trail-arm dominant swing only needs a minor torso rotation (right shoulder moving slightly down plane is all that's needed) to start the curved motion swing whereas a lead-arm dominant swing actually requires rotation to sling the lead arm off the chest.

 

Then, the fun really begins for the golfer using the commonly taught lead-side golf swing - trying to figure out how not to cast, how not to release early, how to prevent the lead wrist from  breaking and flipping, how to square the clubface, how to present ample forward shaft lean...and how to run the clubface into the golf ball precisely on the sweet spot - - all with a non-dominant, less skilled, weak arm, wrist and hand.   That's why most amateur golfers end up using lever force with the lumberjack manipulative muscular force method to swing (uh, move) their golf club.       

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[ShimJoonW]

49 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 

energy, not work, is the usual unit used for the total system. there are forces and torques in the system that do no work.

 

Thanks for your  point out for definition 

 

Modify as follows and change all ‘work’ in the text to ‘momentum’

Thank you

 

an Impulse Is defined by :
Ft = mv-mvo = p (momentum) Vector

work :
W =  Force × d Scalar

Edited March 23, 2024 by ShimJoonW

[Soloman1]

17 minutes ago, ShimJoonW said:

 

Thanks for your  point out for definition 

 

Modify as follows and change all ‘work’ in the text to ‘momentum’

Thank you

 

an Impulse Is defined by :
Ft = mv-mvo = p (momentum) Vector

work :
W =  Force × d Scalar

 

 

energy, not momentum.

[ShimJoonW]

4 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 

 

energy, not momentum.

 

There's different meaning between momentum and energy

 

Momentum = Vector

Energy =  Scalar

 

See prev post

 

The law of conservation of work can be seen in some dynamical movement sports

 

Half pipe ski :

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZSzNx1ND9w?si=aGz_8WEXRaJIOUaY

 

Triple axel :

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f4dL_l5zQo?si=CkGn90r2Fe95dbk2

 

They buckle (shrink) under the momentum built by jumping, etc

 

In golf, the first action to be taken on the downswing after the back swing is to confine the body and arm and transfer the work of the arm swing to the body

 

Therefore, the body and arm swing become one internal system, 

and total amount of work not changed within confinement limit

 

The work produced by the arms is transmitted to the body, but the total amount of work by arm and body, remains unchanged within confinement

 

Confinement creates internal pressure, and again, the arms are brought close to the body, they receive more pressure and expand, allowing the club head to hit the ball

 

A swing that pours force or energy into the club head and ball at the top of the backswing will be ..... another swing (conventional swing) 

 

Edited 12 hours ago by ShimJoonW

[iacas]

3 hours ago, ShimJoonW said:

Case1 The law of conservation of work applies even when the club head impacts the ball

 

@ShimJoonW, for a third time now, there is no such thing as "conservation of work." Google it if you want: it's not a thing. There's really no such thing as "conservation of energy" or "conservation of angular momentum" in a golf swing, either, again… because the body isn't a closed system. There are brief instances when you can do some math that's close, but in general… it's best not to think in these terms when talking about a human being making a motion.

 

1 hour ago, ShimJoonW said:

Modify as follows and change all ‘work’ in the text to ‘momentum’

 

Golfers do not conserve angular momentum in the golf swing much, either.

At the top, there is almost no angular momentum. Conserving that would mean that… they'd basically never make a downswing, because "conserving" means to keep constant.

[Soloman1]

for just the body, but energy accounts for shaft and club, plus the elastic collision (heat, sound, etc.)

 

conservation of momentum is usually used in inelastic collision modeling. it’s easier.

 

the golf swing and kinetic energy transfer (the intent) is easier when using energy units. you can compare your information with other studies and their calculations.

 

it is a complicated system. 🙂

 

[Golfbeat]

I like my thread.

[Ghost of Snead]

2 hours ago, Golfbeat said:

I like my thread.

 

I think you and @GreatStrike should take it on the road like Brendan and BBG. 

[TexasTurf]

13 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

Stay tuned! 👍

We are finally going to see that he is the no name guy that he has sweared he isn't.

[TexasTurf]

11 hours ago, ShimJoonW said:

 

Case1 The law of conservation of work applies even when the club head impacts the ball

 

Case 2 If the helicopter does not have tail rotor, the fuselage rotates by momentum induced by main rotator

 

C1. means a separate system

C2. is a rotation that occurs because the rotor and fuselage are not separated 

 

Confinement in golf is an easy but difficult movement that a golfer makes from address to impact

 

And it is not a necessary movement depending on the swing pattern; it is the golfer's choice , not happen by itself

This dude just dropped an atomic bomb on this thread and ended it. Gave away the final secret. And I'm actually being serious. Guy can't speak english, but put together a helicopter reference that beats anything any instructor will tell you. Your torque down into that and it will torque you right out of it and almost rip your arms off.

Edited March 24, 2024 by TexasTurf

[virtuoso]

11 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

I suspect you're putting a significant amount of force onto the side of the shaft/grip which levers the club. What's nice about straightening the trail arm with its push-out force applied onto the big knuckle of the lead hand (slightly above the couple point) - the force is along the shaft, not against the shaft. You either want push-out force down along the shaft or a longitudinally pulling force - both induce a swinging action. A trail-arm dominant swing only needs a minor torso rotation (right shoulder moving slightly down plane is all that's needed) to start the curved motion swing whereas a lead-arm dominant swing actually requires rotation to sling the lead arm off the chest.

 

Then, the fun really begins for the golfer using the commonly taught lead-side golf swing - trying to figure out how not to cast, how not to release early, how to prevent the lead wrist from  breaking and flipping, how to square the clubface, how to present ample forward shaft lean...and how to run the clubface into the golf ball precisely on the sweet spot - - all with a non-dominant, less skilled, weak arm, wrist and hand.   That's why most amateur golfers end up using lever force with the lumberjack manipulative muscular force method to swing (uh, move) their golf club.       

 

 

 

The forces I apply to the grip go from longitudinal to radial to normal. The torques on the grip are variable and are defined relative to the plane of motion but have the highest resultant value during the normal phase. My trail arm is moving the lead arm off my chest. Torso rotation is not doing that.

Edited March 24, 2024 by virtuoso

[GreatStrike]

11 hours ago, virtuoso said:

The forces I apply to the grip go from longitudinal to radial to normal. The torques on the grip are variable and are defined relative to the plane of motion but have the highest resultant value during the normal phase. My trail arm is moving the lead arm off my chest. Torso rotation is not doing that.

 

@virtuoso - It doesn't have to be that difficult!

 

With a dominant-side golf swing the trail arm keeps the lead arm straight with push-out force on the big knuckle of the lead hand. The trail arm folds a little on the backswing which forms (makes) an irregularly shaped (squashed sided) triangle of the arms (with one leg of the triangle shorter than the other leg).

 

For the downswing, the right shoulder pivots slightly down plane in preparation of straightening the right arm 'straight outward' (not toward the target) from its launching pad like a piston, which reconfigures the arms triangle shape back to about what it was at the address position. This right arm piston straightening action automatically drives the reforming arms triangle structure (with the club) into a perfectly planed strongly curved motion circular arc, which 'swings' the clubhead into the golf ball. The golfer sets the amount of trail wrist bent back angle desired at address or at the start of the backswing - for the amount of forward shaft lean at impact - and maintains that trail wrist bent back angle through impact.  

 

You don't have to deal with trying to figure out how not to cast, how not to release early, how not to swing over-the-top outside-in, how to prevent the lead wrist from  breaking down and flipping, how to square the clubface, how to present ample forward shaft lean through impact...and how to run the clubface into the golf ball precisely on the sweet spot - - all those things a typical swinger must confront by using his non-dominant, less skilled, weak arm, wrist and hand to swing the golf club using a rotational, pivot driven golf swing...

 

When you use your dominant-side to make a golf swing - the golf swing begins to look effortlessly powerful, perfectly repeatable, and machine-like...and easy to do. And, it is! 👍 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[Gsea]

1 hour ago, GreatStrike said:

 

@virtuoso - It doesn't have to be that difficult!

 

With a dominant-side golf swing the trail arm keeps the lead arm straight with push-out force on the big knuckle of the lead hand. The trail arm folds a little on the backswing which forms (makes) an irregularly shaped (squashed sided) triangle of the arms (with one leg of the triangle shorter than the other leg).

 

For the downswing, the right shoulder pivots slightly down plane in preparation of straightening the right arm 'straight outward' (not toward the target) from its launching pad like a piston, which reconfigures the arms triangle shape back to about what it was at the address position. This right arm piston straightening action automatically drives the reforming arms triangle structure (with the club) into a perfectly planed strongly curved motion circular arc, which 'swings' the clubhead into the golf ball. The golfer sets the amount of trail wrist bent back angle desired at address or at the start of the backswing - for the amount of forward shaft lean at impact - and maintains that trail wrist bent back angle through impact.  

 

You don't have to deal with trying to figure out how not to cast, how not to release early, how not to swing over-the-top outside-in, how to prevent the lead wrist from  breaking down and flipping, how to square the clubface, how to present ample forward shaft lean through impact...and how to run the clubface into the golf ball precisely on the sweet spot - - all those things a typical swinger must confront by using his non-dominant, less skilled, weak arm, wrist and hand to swing the golf club using a rotational, pivot driven golf swing...

 

When you use your dominant-side to make a golf swing - the golf swing begins to look effortlessly powerful, perfectly repeatable, and machine-like...and easy to do. And, it is! 👍 

 

 

I see you posted your swing, looks good

[GungHoGolf]

On 3/23/2024 at 8:24 AM, GreatStrike said:

@virtuoso - Practicing some lead-side Cf early release, lead wrist breakdown, open face drop-kicking? 😁

 

 

I’ll venmo or paypal you $100 if you post a video of your own swing, FO and DTL, and a majority of users here say it’s better than @virtuoso’s. And make sure to say something on the video proving it’s you prior to hitting the ball.

 

You type a good game, but do you really have the swing? Easy hundo if you do, based on your low opinion of this hack: