Do you throw or twist?

[virtuoso]

@GungHoGolf You didn’t even show my sexy P6 from DTL. That’s my most photogenic side! 🙂

 

[GungHoGolf]

17 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

@GungHoGolf You didn’t even show my sexy P6 from DTL. That’s my most photogenic side! 🙂

 

Sorry! I was trying to keep the post SFW.

Edited March 24, 2024 by GungHoGolf

[virtuoso]

3 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

@virtuoso - It doesn't have to be that difficult!

 

When you use your dominant-side to make a golf swing - the golf swing begins to look effortlessly powerful, perfectly repeatable, and machine-like...and easy to do. And, it is! 👍 

 

I already use my dominant side to make the golf swing, and it’s still really difficult.

 

If someone tells you the golf swing is simple and/or something along the lines of: “Do this one easy thing and you never have to practice again”, you can immediately deduce that it is social media click bait, or something similar.

 

You have to confront the golf swing on its own terms; as it actually exists when you try to control it in real life. The golf swing is actually really complicated. You can sit in a recliner and theorize about it, which is a good first step, but you then have to take the second step and try to hit a ball with said theory. Most of the time you will be disappointed in the results.

 

For people that do respect the actual complexity, they may continue to get poor results—but not because they overcomplicated it. They just still happen to be wrong, as I have been many times in the past.

 

By far my worst results came from trying to oversimplify the golf swing. This is the biggest error you can make because then you have no chance to figure it out. It will always be a mystery.

[GreatStrike]

16 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

For people that do respect the actual complexity, they may continue to get poor results—but not because they overcomplicated it. They just still happen to be wrong, as I have been many times in the past.

 

By far my worst results came from trying to oversimplify the golf swing. This is the biggest error you can make because then you have no chance to figure it out. It will always be a mystery.

 

It is only a mystery to some. Best of luck figuring it out.

 

If it was ever a mystery to this young golfer, she was able to figure it out quickly. Do you wonder why? 

 

[johnrobison]

39 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

I already use my dominant side to make the golf swing, and it’s still really difficult.

 

If someone tells you the golf swing is simple and/or something along the lines of: “Do this one easy thing and you never have to practice again”, you can immediately deduce that it is social media click bait, or something similar.

 

You have to confront the golf swing on its own terms; as it actually exists when you try to control it in real life. The golf swing is actually really complicated. You can sit in a recliner and theorize about it, which is a good first step, but you then have to take the second step and try to hit a ball with said theory. Most of the time you will be disappointed in the results.

 

For people that do respect the actual complexity, they may continue to get poor results—but not because they overcomplicated it. They just still happen to be wrong, as I have been many times in the past.

 

By far my worst results came from trying to oversimplify the golf swing. This is the biggest error you can make because then you have no chance to figure it out. It will always be a mystery.

💯

[Soloman1]

and knowing how a virtuoso pianist plays doesn't mean someone can play like a virtuoso pianist.

 

if it's so easy that anyone can do it, everyone would be doing it.

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, GreatStrike said:

 

It is only a mystery to some. Best of luck figuring it out.

 

If it was ever a mystery to this young golfer, she was able to figure it out quickly. Do you wonder why? 

 

Thank you for the wishes—luck certainly helps.

 

As for the young golfer, I know who she is and I’ve seen her hit it in person a few times. It must still be somewhat of a mystery to her because she is still taking lessons from people, trying to get better like all of us.

 

Just so I have a visual reference, is the swing she is making above how you would characterize a textbook hitting action?

 

 

[GreatStrike]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Thank you for the wishes—luck certainly helps.

 

As for the young golfer, I know who she is and I’ve seen her hit it in person a few times. It must still be somewhat of a mystery to her because she is still taking lessons from people, trying to get better like all of us.

 

Just so I have a visual reference, is the swing she is making above how you would characterize a textbook hitting action?

 

 

 

 

Close enough! 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[GreatStrike]

2 hours ago, jmoor4 said:

 

Looks like a good athlete, and I'm guessing 122 white polka dots. 

 

No doubt a good athlete, but the shimmy at impact makes counting the white polka dots difficult. 😊

 

 

Edited March 25, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[virtuoso]

14 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

Close enough! 

 

 

Wow, that’s odd because Paige has the quintessential pivot lead swing sequence. Hip rotation gets way ahead early and drags the arms behind, with left arm actually flexed until deep into the downswing. Then arms get thrown off the body as pivot runs out of ROM. She is literally the opposite of what you say you want to see.

Edited March 25, 2024 by virtuoso

[GreatStrike]

4 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Wow, that’s odd because Paige has the quintessential pivot lead swing sequence. Hip rotation gets way ahead early and drags the arms behind, with left arm actually flexed until deep into the downswing. Then arms get throw off the body as pivot runs out of ROM. She is literally the opposite of what you say you want to see.

 

The image directly below is probably what you remember not being good - it's a good example of a typical lead side pivot-driven swing with collapsed (squashed) and tilted (flattened and rotated) arms structure triangle - totally out of kilter with the lead arm dragging behind the pivot that no amount of right side manipulation can save or correct it. This swing position (directly below) is truly terrible, but apparently the fix was relatively fast and easy using the dominant side to soundly swing the arms/club structure with no lead arm dragging.     

 

  

 

 

There's no dragging the lead arm below showcasing a solid, sound golf swing.   

 

She was ranked amongst the world's top 20 as a junior golfer. If you are at all familiar with AJGA talent, you must know that World Top 20 is very elite. I suspect her swing probably changed a lot after she stopped competing and practicing. The above swing is quiet good... 

 

Edited March 25, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[virtuoso]

2 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

The image directly below is probably what you remember not being good - it's a good example of a typical lead side pivot-driven swing with collapsed (squashed) and tilted (flattened and rotated) arms structure triangle - totally out of kilter with the lead arm dragging behind the pivot that no amount of right side manipulation can save or correct it. This swing position (directly below) is truly terrible, but apparently the fix was relatively fast and easy using the dominant side to soundly swing the arms/club structure with no lead arm dragging.     

 

  

 

There's no dragging the lead arm in the below showcasing the swing.   

 

 

 

 

She is doing the same thing in both swings.

[GreatStrike]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

She is doing the same thing in both swings.

 

Nope - no way is it the same! Nowhere near being the same. Very different...

 

Her swing as an elite World Top 20 junior was much better then than it is now that she no longer competes or practices and chooses to be a social media personality.

 

 

    

Edited March 25, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[iacas]

2 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

apparently the fix was relatively fast and easy using the dominant side to soundly swing the arms/club structure with no lead arm dragging.

 

What "fix"? She isn't doing anything different. You're seeing, apparently, either what you want to see, or something that isn't there at all.

 

32 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

She is doing the same thing in both swings.

 

Yep.

 

Edited March 25, 2024 by iacas

[GreatStrike]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

 

What "fix"? She isn't doing anything different. You're seeing, apparently, either what you want to see, or something that isn't there at all.

 

 

Yep.

 

 

 

Nope!

 

Look at the image below in this post. Her lead arm is not the same - it's very different - it's not pinned to her chest.

 

You just captured the gif motion as a blurred image for your post . Of course, you knew that... We know your MO! 

 

 

The image below is proof she's not dragging a pinned lead arm with pivot. 

 

Her lead arm is clearly well separated and nicely forming the lead leg of the arms triangle - driven by the trail arm.      

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[virtuoso]

7 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

The image directly below is probably what you remember not being good - it's a good example of a typical lead side pivot-driven swing with collapsed (squashed) and tilted (flattened and rotated) arms structure triangle - totally out of kilter with the lead arm dragging behind the pivot that no amount of right side manipulation can save or correct it. This swing position (directly below) is truly terrible, but apparently the fix was relatively fast and easy using the dominant side to soundly swing the arms/club structure with no lead arm dragging.     

 

  

 

 

There's no dragging the lead arm below showcasing a solid, sound golf swing.   

 

She was ranked amongst the world's top 20 as a junior golfer. If you are at all familiar with AJGA talent, you must know that World Top 20 is very elite. I suspect her swing probably changed a lot after she stopped competing and practicing. The above swing is quiet good... 

 

This is from the same time--4 days earlier. The FO view:

Edited March 25, 2024 by virtuoso

[iacas]

4 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

Nope!

 

Look at the image below in this post. Her lead arm is not the same - it's very different - it's pinned to her chest.

 

Yep! This image is proof that she has:

 

 

Hips are square, knees are square, chest is dragging the arm, right elbow is stuck behind. Your image is well after impact, well after she's managed to "fling" her arms out off her body.

 

4 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

You just captured the gif motion as a blurred image for your post . Of course, you knew that... We know your MO!.      

 

My MO is the truth. I agree, we do know that. Or at least I hope so.

 

4 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

The image below is proof she's not dragging a pinned lead arm with pivot. 

 

Her lead arm is clearly well separated and nicely forming the lead leg of the arms triangle - driven by the trail arm.      

 

No, flung off her body at that point. Early Rory could look a lot like that, too:

 

 

Also…

 

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

This is from the same time--4 days earlier. The FO view:

 

Hmmmm.

 

It's also highly unlikely that her swing changed dramatically.

[virtuoso]

9 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

The image directly below is probably what you remember not being good - it's a good example of a typical lead side pivot-driven swing with collapsed (squashed) and tilted (flattened and rotated) arms structure triangle - totally out of kilter with the lead arm dragging behind the pivot that no amount of right side manipulation can save or correct it. This swing position (directly below) is truly terrible, but apparently the fix was relatively fast and easy using the dominant side to soundly swing the arms/club structure with no lead arm dragging.     

[GreatStrike]

@virtuoso - Those images with a pinned or floating bent lead arm are very different compared to this. Her lead arm here is ramrod straight and being driven by a straightening right arm. Her positions are nowhere near what they are in the two 'lead arm pinned' images in your last post. 

 

 

Her lead arm is not pinned here...

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[virtuoso]

42 minutes ago, GreatStrike said:

@virtuoso - Those images with a pinned or floating bent lead arm and are very different compared to this. Her lead arm is ramrod straight and being driven by a straightening right arm. Her positions are nowhere near what they are in the two images in your last post. 

 

 

 

 

 

You're starting to remind me of the staff members at the Flat Earth Society Facebook page who accidentally bragged on their front page that they have "lots of members from all over the globe."

 

The two swings are 4 days apart, the "Bad" swing being earlier. She didn't just decide to go ramrod straight for one night at the driving range......and then go back to soft draggy left arm the next day. People aren't even capable of making those types of changes quickly, and most people can never make those types of changes.

 

And her swing isn't bad. It's a good swing, but she just happens to be doing the opposite of what you think you want to see...and you've decided to find your lead arm evidence in a frame where the lead arm is blocked by the right....and at the worst angle.

 

Overall, I'm just surprised you picked this swing as your prime example of a "hitter". There would have been so many better options that could have been conceived of as right arm piston actions. It has completely sabotaged your argument and I can't believe this is the hill you want your argument to die on.

Edited March 25, 2024 by virtuoso

[GreatStrike]

@virtuoso - Good luck with your continuing search for improvement... 👍  

[GreatStrike]

@virtuoso - The two swings are very different - Dressed in both red and black outfits - her lead arm is bent and her swing has poor alignments and is in terrible positions. A golfer can't get in much poorer lead arm/hands and clubface positions than she is displaying dressed in the red and black outfit swings.  She looks to be a totally different person compared to her swing dressed in polka dots...   

 

Dressed in polka dots - her lead arm is ramrod straight and she is driving the arms structure with her trail arm. The polka dot swing has quite good alignments and positions. Very different compared to her dressed in red and black...  

 

I'm guessing the polka dot outfit swing is her when she was younger and a World Top 20 junior or collegiate golfer able to shoot in the low to mid 60s at times.  I'm guessing the red and black outfits swing, she is older and not having competed or practiced in many years, she lost her swing and her body changed and she was struggling to find something that worked which is far different from her technique when younger.   

 

Look at how her lead arm is well off her chest throughout her entire swing in the polka dot swing. Look at how her arms triangle remains nicely structured in the polka dot swing. Compare it with the collapsed arms triangle of her dressed in red and black. Vastly different!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[virtuoso]

28 minutes ago, GreatStrike said:

@virtuoso - The two swings are very different - Dressed in both red and black outfits - her lead arm is bent and her swing has poor alignments and is in terrible positions. A golfer can't get in much poorer lead arm/hands and clubface positions than she is displaying dressed in the red and black outfit swings.  She looks to be a totally different person compared to her swing dressed in polka dots...   

 

Dressed in polka dots - her lead arm is ramrod straight and she is driving the arms structure with her trail arm. The polka dot swing has quite good alignments and positions. Very different compared to her dressed in red and black...  

 

I'm guessing the polka dot outfit swing is her when she was younger and a World Top 20 junior or collegiate golfer able to shoot in the low to mid 60s at times.  I'm guessing the red and black outfits swing, she is older and not having competed or practiced in many years, she lost her swing and her body changed and she was struggling to find something that worked which is far different from her technique when younger.   

 

Look at how her lead arm is well off her chest throughout her entire swing in the polka dot swing. Look at how her arms triangle remains nicely structured in the polka dot swing. Compare it with the collapsed arms triangle of her dressed in red and black. Vastly different!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The black/grey dress was June 29, 2015. The shorts was July 3rd, 2015.

[iacas]

@GreatStrike, good to know this was the hill on which you were willing to die, because dead you are. Wowee.

 

This again shows you can’t always tell what’s going on from 2D images or a blurry video (also 2D).

 

Even though we can’t see much, you can see that her left arm is quite likely bent in the still image I added. I won’t say it definitively but having seen a bunch of video I would say it’s much more likely than that it is straight.

 

 

 

Not for nothing, I teach a lot of people to extend the trail elbow very quickly and aggressively in the downswing. “Hitting” and “Swinging” are antiquated “feels“ while good golf is played using both sides of your body together.

 

Edited March 26, 2024 by iacas
Just wanted to say “orthography.”

[GreatStrike]

 

Maintaining good arms triangle structure on 9-29-2015 hitting driver at 22 years old 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[Laaandry]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

The black/grey dress was June 29, 2015. The shorts was July 3rd, 2015.

 

These youngins have data for every golf thing now, even data for when videos were taken!

 

This thread has been a perfect example of how unreliable and misconstrued 2D images can be--actually pretty enlightening.

[Soloman1]

good comparison to rory, @iacas.

 

women have faster pelvis rotation speed and rory has fastest pelvis speed measured on tour. affects arm movement off the chest.

[GreatStrike]

On 3/26/2024 at 8:16 AM, iacas said:

@GreatStrike, “Hitting” and “Swinging” are antiquated “feels“ while good golf is played using both sides of your body together.

 

 

@iacas - A sound golf swing absolutely uses both sides of your body - there is constant pushing and pulling throughout the golf swing. I've never said it didn't and I'm quiet sure you know that! But your MO has always been malice. Erik, surely you're better than that - it's certainly not a flattering trait...  

 

Using 'primarily' the dominant side with its better dexterity, skill and strength to fundamentally make the golf swing and control the clubface and provide the muscle power does not mean the non-dominant side is not used. Of course both sides are needed for a sound golf swing and to play good golf. The more skilled dominant arm can be used to drive the arms triangle structure in a curved motion by straightening the dominant arm. The more skilled dominant arm and hand is better equipped to deliver desired forward shaft lean, a square clubface and sweet spot contact.     

 

Lets move on, please. 

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2024 by GreatStrike
orthography

[iacas]

9 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

Maintaining good arms triangle structure on 9-29-2015 hitting driver at 22 years old 

 

You can't see her left arm, and her right arm is still pretty well bent after impact. And again… it's 2D.

 

Here she is in 2015 when she was 22 or 23 (oh, hey, her birthday is today):

 

 

 

That video gives us this:

 

 

What's more likely: a) that for a few days in 2015 (while wearing polka-dot-shorts in a blurry video) she was a pure hitter, or b) that she's pretty much always spun out, trapped her right elbow behind her pivot with a slightly bent left elbow, stalled the pivot late and thrust the right arm out from behind her hip through impact?

 

I'd place my money on the latter. What did you have to say to this?:

 

11 hours ago, virtuoso said:

The black/grey dress was June 29, 2015. The shorts was July 3rd, 2015.

 

My "MO" is and always has been to take in all available information and form the best opinion that I can. It's to use whatever data, measurements, info, experiences (mine and others), etc. It's to continue to be open to the fact that we've learned something about things in the last 40+ years.

 

Edited March 27, 2024 by iacas
ornithology 🦆

[Gsea]

13 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

@iacas - A sound golf swing absolutely uses both sides of your body. I've never said it didn't and I'm quiet sure you know that! But your MO has always been malice. Erik, surely you're better than that - it's certainly not a flattering trait...  

 

Using 'primarily' the dominant side with its better dexterity, skill and strength to fundamentally make the golf swing and control the clubface and provide the muscle power does not mean the non-dominant side is not used. Of course both sides are needed for a sound golf swing and to play good golf. The more skilled dominant arm can be used to drive the arms triangle structure in a curved motion by straightening the dominant arm. The more skilled dominant arm and hand is better equipped to deliver desired forward shaft lean, a square clubface and sweet spot contact.     

 

Lets move on, please. 

 

 

 

How about showing us with your swing instead of the rhetoric.