Do you throw or twist?

[GreatStrike]

You will find that the driver and longer, more straight-faced clubs require minimal shaft lean, and therefore do not need the protracted (sustained) trail wrist technique like is needed with the short, mid-length clubs. The wrist technique is the same, but just not to the same extent or sustained range. With the lofted short irons - think how you will deloft them with significant shaft lean but with a level angle-of-attack. With the more straight-faced clubs - think how you will deliver the clubface with only minimal shaft lean but with a level angle-of-attack.

You've got the basics now, so you should be able to rein in the degree of the technique based on the club you're swinging and the trajectory you desire.

PS - If you are "very very right hand dominant", don't be timid about using your right side strength to flatten the golf ball on the clubface. Just like Ben Hogan, you'll wish you had three right hands!

[Jobu]

Just pull the handle.

[dap]

Whatever works I guess. In my opinion, impact occurs way too fast to be thinking about wrist conditions. I prefer impact hand location as taught by Ben Doyle to get shaft lean. For most people the feeling of that location is just outside the lead foot.

The right wrist is unbending fast on the downswing. Folly to try and hold it. The forces just won’t allow it.

[Jobu]

Nail_It is still figuring it out. He will soon abandon these thoughts.

[bilbry57]

Nail It

This feels really good just started 50 yard half wedges. Thanks for you the detailed explanations. To me this seems very similar to the the wrist movements my daughter learned as a pitcher in fastpitch softball. She pitched all the way through College. Right wrist loaded at top hold angle until waist hi then Snap (release). She could throw almost as fast just standing sideways as full windup. Not sure if this makes sense.

[GreatStrike]

I'm not very familiar with fastpitch softball, but I believe the fastpitch snap release wrist action is likely more of a straight inline movement from wrist extension to wrist flexion with minimal or negligible forearm rotation. Whereas the right forearm/wrist technique I am describing entails being able to 'naturally' sustain the bent-back right wrist extension through impact by means of rotating the forearm, wrist and hand as a unified structure from a palm facing generally upward position at waist high (~P6) to a palm facing generally downward position post-impact.

The one way you can naturally sustain (retain) a significant degree of the desirable bent-back right wrist extension is to rotate the forearm and wrist as a unified structure. As soon as some degree of right wrist bent-back extension starts diminishing the entire right arm (elbow, forearm and wrist) abruptly changes and causes all sorts of negative swing issues. (There are numerous reasons why most golfers diminish the right wrist bent-back extension - some golfers probably think they can unleash their wrist hinge (going from extension to flexion) to add power/speed, some golfers are totally unaware that golf clubs are designed to have the handle lead the clubhead so they are oblivious to the need to have a degree of right wrist bend through impact, some golfers are hesitant to rotate their forearm and wrist through impact due to their effort to deliver a square clubface into the golf ball, some golfers must release early in an attempt to square the clubface at impact, and some golfers attempt to swing the golf club primarily with their much weaker non-dominant side and don't know how to use their right forearm/wrist to achieve shaft lean, a level or slightly descending angle-of-attack, a late release, and delivery of the clubhead that never goes outside the target line.)

As soon as some degree of right wrist bent-back extension starts diminishing a number of really bad things start happening in quick succession - early extension (casting) takes place because the lag angle is released (losing clubhead speed and causes an over-the-top, outside-in clubhead path), the forearm stops rotating (open clubface and blocking), the right arm fully straightens (heavy/fat shots), the elbow actually backs up - moves rearward away from the right hip (contributing to flipping and heavy/fat shots)...and the list goes on and on.

If anyone is interested to see what diminishing the right wrist bent-back angle too early does to the right arm, all they have to do is watch what happens to their right elbow.

[bilbry57]

Thank you for the response i can definitely see a compression improvement in short swings when adding speed contact is more inconsistent. I need to experiment more with longer clubs I do understand you point about diminishing the the right wrist back affect in the right elbow.

[GreatStrike]

If you are right-side dominant (as most right-hand golfers are) then it is suggested that you give more duty to the right arm. In a sound golf swing the right arm, elbow, wrist and hand has far more complex movements and actions during the golf swing when compared to the left arm and wrist, so why not use your naturally more gifted (stronger and greater dexterity) side to make sure it happens correctly?

If you were to swing a golf club with your right arm only, think about how you would go about doing it. Keep in mind (as I have mentioned many times) that it is imperative to accomplish certain conditions or parameters through the impact zone. Let's go over them...

• There must be a degree of shaft lean with the handle leading the clubhead (and the more lofted the club the more shaft lean is needed)

• There must be an extended distance of clubhead travel through impact when the clubhead's angle-of-attack travels level or only slightly descending to produce maximum compression and spin loft

• The [so-called] 'lag angle' (now between the clubshaft and right forearm instead of the left forearm) must be naturally and easily sustained to ~P6

• The clubhead must never swing on a path that goes outside the target line or in an outside-to-in swing path

• The clubface must be consistently and easily delivered squarely into the ball at impact

• There must be consistent sweet-spot ball contact on the clubface (which is more likely with the dominant side primarily in control)

• There must be a transmission of the power and leverage from the right arm unfolding that is delivered into the clubshaft with precise timing and on a consistent basis

Think about it - accomplishing any of these conditions or parameters are highly unlikely if you are right-side dominant and assign your left arm the primary role in making your golf swing.

The picture below is a wonderful example of where the right arm, elbow, wrist and hand should be positioned at impact. Only about 1% of amateur golfers ever learn how to achieve this position at impact in order to accomplish all of the above.

 

[bilbry57]

Everything you are writing makes perfect sense I have always tried to control release with left side with mixed success. When I was younger I could play reasonably well despite poor mechanics. As I have gotten older my lack of load on my right leg on backswing caused my swing to get very short and steep . Monte helped me with that last summer so now I have created more room in my backswing to release the club. I am going to take your suggestion and continue to work on lofted clubs first. So far the results are promising.

[GreatStrike]

This [public] reply is for Scott, and others that may also be helped by the advice.

Scott asks an excellent question - Is there a drill that can be used to make sure the right forearm/wrist technique is being done correctly? The answer is - Yes!

The video below provides a simple drill so you can confirm if your forearm and wrist action maintains the clubshaft angle in proper alignment. Pay close attention to how the instructors' right wrist and hand is rotated from the point of where the shaft is at a 90° angle (at ~P6) to impact. In order to retain a bent-back right wrist (instead of diminishing the bent-back right wrist angle throughout the release phase) he continues rotating or twisting his right wrist. If he were to stop the wrist from rotating or twisting his bent-back right wrist would move immediately from extension into flexion - causing a flip and no shaft lean. Note at 1:00 in the video how he explains what causes the flip and at 1:15 in the video he mentions how the right elbow moves backwards or opposite of how it needs to move.

Note: As with most golf instructors he talks about how the left forearm must rotate to square the clubface. The truth of the matter is - it takes coordinated work of both the lead and trail arms and wrists to produce a sound golf swing. It is impossible to tell how much work is being done by the right side compared to the left side in most anyone's golf swing ... and it doesn't make any difference whatsoever as long as you can make certain conditions take place. Considering how the right elbow must unfold and the right wrist must retain its bent-back condition throughout the release-to-impact phase it only stands to reason that the right side has far more complex actions to undertake and thus requires far more dexterity compared to the left side. That said, it is up to you (as a unique individual) to determine how best you are able to make these conditions occur with precision, force and speed - either primarily with your left or primarily with your right. If you are right-side dominant (as 90% of golfers are) chances are you will be better served to have your right arm/wrist perform the primary role of making your golf swing.

I hope this answers your question and helps improve your golf swing...

 

PS - There is little doubt that most tour players and single-digit or better players use their dominant right side (right arm/elbow/wrist) in a primary role to make their golf swings. Below is a picture of Ryan Palmer (notable to have a strong left hand grip) a nanosecond after impact, still having significant right wrist bend even with a driver. Is there any doubt which side functions the primary role in his golf swing?

[mufasis]

Hey guys Ryan here. I'm a solid 5 handicap been playing a while now. I'm pretty long and I have a great way I think about what this thread is all about. I'm going to make a list on the order of what I feel happens when I'm hitting it super solid.

I think one of the most important things about getting to the top is taking the club away in one piece with the club head as low and wide as possible, almost keeping the angle between the hands and club the same(if looking DTL) and getting more upright and then letting the depth of the body bring the club around so you have maximum right hand extension and left hand radial deviation.The key move from the top once you have a nice one piece take away and the right angles is to be super soft with the hands, its almost like the hands drop from the top, while the left hand starts to supinate, go in to flexion, and ulnar deviate. I would say that the whole thing happens together as a unit. At the same time the right hand keeps its extension but it FEELS like you're throwing the club, almost casting if you will. It will never happen though because of the rotation of the body.Once you get in to a good shallow position and the wrist unit has moved like I described above which at this point should be parallel to ground with the club slightly closed, the trick here is the left hand needs to continue to supinate, flex, and ulnar diviate while the right hand maintains its flexion until the momentum of the club passes the hands and is at its widest in front of the body. It's really a mating of this feelings and movements and syncing up the body.Just my .02 cents....:P

[mufasis]

Here is a great video.

[Nard_S]

I find that the tumbling of the club shaft and head (in a CCW manner) from top to impact to be one of the most important advancements I made in my swing. Think it is somewhat dangerous to make assumption that golf swing is right side or left side dominant, when from experience, it's seems to be clearly both.

For a couple years, been heavily right side minded & dominant. To the point, that the left side was not doing it's part from lead hand, lead shoulder, to hip & knee. Once I saw this, spent a ton of time upgrading left behavior but what sealed the deal was utilizing lead hand, especially transition on, to commence "the tumble". Butch Harmon's dad emphasized "lead wrist should be like steel and not linguine". I learned the hard way, If you're right side dominant and lead wrist is linguine, you're heading for trouble.

[Carlito]

Hey guys Ryan here.Hi Ryan, thanks for your detailed description. In my opinion pure gold!

 I learned the hard way, If you're right side dominant and lead wrist is linguine, you're heading for trouble.Same here! I spent a lot of time in educating my lead wrist. In the beginning it was fear to break my bones. Until today the motion Ryan described (  while the left hand starts to supinate, go in to flexion, and ulnar deviate) is kind of weird and uncomfortable for me.

By the way I love Italian food ( i am only 20 minutes away from the border). But regarding my lead wrist i am totally in the heavy metal fraction.

 

[mufasis]

I think Zach in the video does a much better job at actually showing what’s happening. I agree though when you figure this out your game can go to a whole new level because squaring the face isn’t a problem anymore...

[Leftlove94]

I’ve been working on being more of a “thrower” trying to keep the handle low through impact.

[Carlito]

the trick here is the left hand needs to continue to supinate, flex, and ulnar diviate while the right hand maintains its flexion Ryan, i think you are spot on... the left arm (wrist, forearm, elbow, upper arm, shoulder) is a Rotator and not a puller. And that is the reason why some of us can successfully maintain the flexion extension in the right hand.

[Sean2]

And, if you yell while you are doing it, it's a twist and shout. :-)

[moehogan]

So what if there was a specific grip pressure that could be applied by the dominant trail hand on the non-dominant lead hand that would guarantee an extended trail wrist and a flexed lead wrist through the impact zone?

As I’ve mentioned before, the TGM boys call it Pressure Point (PP) #1 ... the base of the trail hand palm pad pressuring against the lead hand thumb at the point and in the direction that creates the wrist angles mentioned above.

It just takes a little experimentation to find it and then some practice to refine it. No motorcycles or pickle jars required!

[GreatStrike]

The golf swing is reinforced by having both arms doing their job. There's no doubting that both arms support and aid the golf swing. The question becomes - Are you using 'your' most appropriate side (arm/wrist/hand) to accomplish the conditions that are necessary for a sound golf swing? Self-analyzing your golf swing concerning just six essential elements can quickly and easily answer this question.

With both hands on the club, are you better able to:

• Produce adequate shaft lean with the strength, dexterity and action of your left arm/wrist/hand or your right arm/wrist/hand?

• Produce a level or only slightly descending angle-of-attack throughout the impact zone with the strength, dexterity and action of your left arm/wrist/hand or your right arm/wrist/hand?

• Swing the clubhead where it never goes outside the target line or in an outside-to-in swing path with the strength, dexterity and action of your left arm/wrist/hand or your right arm/wrist/hand?

• Deliver a square clubface at impact using the strength, dexterity and action of your left arm/wrist/hand or your right arm/wrist/hand?

• Make consistent sweet-spot ball contact on the clubface with the strength, dexterity and action of your left arm/wrist/hand or your right arm/wrist/hand?

• Retain/sustain the 'lag angle' between the clubshaft and your left forearm with the strength, dexterity and action of your left arm/wrist/hand - or retain/sustain the 'lag angle' between the clubshaft and your right forearm with the strength, dexterity and action of your right arm/wrist/hand?

If you are better able to accomplish these six essential elements using 'primarily' your left arm/wrist/hand - that's great. Do it!

If you are better able to accomplish these six essential elements using 'primarily' your right arm/wrist/hand - that's great. Do it!

If however you are expecting to accomplish these six essential elements not using 'primarily' your best side (arm/wrist/hand) to make it happen - then that is not good. You will never achieve all that you are capable of ... period.

And, if you are unable to accomplish these six essential elements using primarily your non-dominant side or using primarily your dominant side - then you almost certainly do not know how the wrists are to work to provide the action necessary to achieve a sound golf swing.

[GreatStrike]

'Specific' grip pressure? That's kinda like trying to tell someone how much pressure is needed on the brake pedal to stop before running into the stopped school bus.

There needs to be a rotating/twisting force of the arm(s) and wrist(s). A specific grip pressure from the trail hand palm pad against the lead hand thumb alone is not gonna get it done...

[moehogan]

Looks like you might have missed a critical part of my post. I wrote “the base of the trail hand palm pad pressuring against the lead hand thumb at the point and in the direction that creates the wrist angles mentioned above”.

Applying the pressure or force at the correct point AND in the correct direction are the keys to producing the rotation of which you speak. Push hard enough on the edge of something and it will turn.

See post #117

[GreatStrike]

No, I didn't miss anything - I just didn't repeat exactly what you had written. Nevertheless, applying pressure against the lead hand thumb 'at the point and in the direction that creates the wrist angles' is [in itself] a means of [attempting] rotating or twisting. You really cannot apply such side pressure without defining it as rotating or twisting force...much like applying pressure to the handle of a screwdriver to rotate or twist it. But I get what you're saying.

This TGM pressure point technique attempts to apply a rotating force that is not applied directly from the right hand to the club's grip - but for some strange reason the author believed that the rotating force should be applied indirectly - first applied from the right hand to the left hand and then in-turn from the left hand to the club's grip. The problem, in my opinion, with the TGM method focusing on the base of the trail hand palm pad to apply pressure against the lead hand thumb at a point and in the direction that creates the wrist angle - is that the golfer is making his right hand move his left hand into a particular position so the golf club is in the proper alignment. It seems more desirable (and makes much greater sense) to me to have the right hand take a direct role and move the golf club into the proper alignment...and in so doing just let the left hand/wrist move however it pleases based on the golfer's grip. A perfect example of this is how the left wrists of both Ryan Palmer and Matt Kuchar is not [TGM] desirably flat or bowed at impact yet the golf club is in the proper forward shaft leaning alignment at impact due to these tour pros controlling the golf club with their right hand. How their (strong grip) left wrists are both cupped at impact is of absolutely no concern to them whatsoever. As you can easily discern (from the images below) there's no right hand moving the left hand into the correct position so the left hand can align the golf club properly - there is no 'middle man' in the equation - it's all about their dominant right hand taking care of things directly. If they swung the golf club using that TGM method they probably couldn't break 80 and would be a club pro or selling life insurance now.

If you wanted to unscrew a screw you wouldn't grasp the screwdriver in your non-dominant left hand and then apply twisting pressure to your left hand with your dominant right hand. That wouldn't make any sense... That's like something a small child might do. That said, a lot of the TGM stuff doesn't make much sense.

Additionally, when you count on your dominant right hand to control your left hand (instead of the right hand directly controlling the golf club) it is my opinion that you are just asking for a multitude of problems - problems with the left hand resisting against the push (twist) pressure from the right hand and instead of the left forearm/wrist actually rotating the left forearm/wrist instead blocks instead and does not rotate at all, which of course would result in a block and/or flip which is exactly opposite of what is desired. Also, just applying pressure against the lead hand thumb at the point and in the direction that [hopefully] creates the wrist angles we have been discussing in this thread does not (by any means, shape or form) promote or assist in taking care of any of the essentials I've noted for a sound golf swing other than maybe shaft lean...and even shaft lean is highly questionable depending on how the left hand reacts to the force from the right hand.

 

 

[Nard_S]

If however you are expecting to accomplish these six essential elements not using 'primarily' your best side (arm/wrist/hand) to make it happen - then that is not good. You will never achieve all that you are capable of ... period.- Nail_It

At one point not more than 6 months ago, I had inflamed left shoulder tendons and my left wrist at times felt injured because there was a mismatch of both sides. I was full fire of right but left was not keeping up. Once I gave left some discipline, load and dominance, injuries went away and shaft lean went up. Ball striking across entire bag improved a bunch.

For me, the answer to all your criteria is lead hand dominates from top of swing (P4) to past P5, then right hand (trail side) takes over. I can use trail side throughout, but it is not as reliable nor are the results as good.

From what I've experienced and from what can be gleaned of top tier ball strikers, gaining hand speed early on post transition is a huge positive & is done in large part by a pull radiating out from the core. One that translates as a lead hand throw, one that straightens trail arm. You will also see that most PGA level players utilize a "motorcycle move" early in transition and that their tumble of rotation varies in scope but it happens none the less. Folks like to interpret this as a right hand move, I choose to use a left hand intent to execute this.

Golf may be a right side explosion but you need a left side that is able, strong & efficient to match it. A good part of shallowing the shaft is accomplished by proper lead side behavior. That to me is why it is dangerous & foolish to be single minded about one side or the other.

 

[Nard_S]

Just would add, this is a worthy discussion. The choreography & disposition of hands from transition on is opaque and not greatly ventured because more basic issues are always around. So good stuff. Cheers.

[moehogan]

Well, I’ll I can say is that it works “like a charm” for me. Good luck twisting those pickle jar lids!

[Zitlow]

Working the club head.

 

[GreatStrike]

'Twisting open the lid of a pickle jar' is an analogy - one that is hopefully helpful for people to understand. Surely you understand that! The metaphor actually came to me from the man that played more rounds of golf with Ben Hogan than anyone else. It wouldn't surprise me if he had been given that comparison by Mr. Hogan himself. Most every amateur golfer's trail wrist goes from some degree of extension at the top to flexion prior to impact. They find it next to impossible to have trail wrist extension through impact and the type of wrist action that achieves the essential conditions through the impact zone. When the typical amateur golfer does try to maintain some degree of trail wrist extension through impact, it is usually a forced, blocking, open-faced, steep angle-of-attack attempt producing ugly results. I'm glad to hear that you are having success adopting TGM methods. If they are working like a charm for you - do it!

The truth of the matter is, almost all right side dominant amateur golfers that play right-handed would improve dramatically if they would only learn how the trail wrist needs to work in order to achieve the essential conditions through the impact zone, which I have mentioned numerous times. One can walk up and down a practice range for hours on-end and rarely find an amateur golfer with a sound golf swing...and practically every one of them are looking in all the wrong places for a cure to their woes. You could probably spend 15 hours at most any practice range offering $100 to anyone that can hit 5 consecutive push-draws off a bare lie with a 3 iron, and not find a single amateur golfer that could come close...unless of course you were there with your lucky charms and the TGM book!

 

 

 

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

@chipa - I see the problem - you're an engineer... Never met an engineer that naturally couldn't over-analyze a gnats azz. LOL

[moehogan]

Not a TGMer nor advocating a specific TGM stroke pattern ... although I have owned a copy of the little yellow book for decades. I used the PP#1 reference since many on this board over the years are familiar with it to help give a clear picture as to where and how I pressure the left hand with the right.

My stock ball flight is a medium trajectory 1-2 yard fade that actually looks like its trying to draw before it falls right. Push draws are no problem ... played a big hook as a kid but through lots of experimentation was able to develop the reliable fade. Again, just sharing what has worked for me.

Never liked those exaggerated palm down images. I always preferred this one ...