Do you throw or twist?

[chipa]

I had one golf instructor tell me he wouldn't instruct me because I'm and engineer, but one you start to think in terms of vectors, angles and forces a lot of things seem different, haha.

[GreatStrike]

That image from the 5 Lessons book is, in my opinion, more harmful than it is helpful. It looks like a simple flapping of the right wrist movement. There's no way that image from the 5 Lessons book is going to depict the amount of shaft lean needed to turn a 45° pitching wedge into 30° of loft at impact. If anything, someone seeing that image would more than likely think the shaft should be vertical at impact. That image needed to be portrayed much differently and it needed to be 'detailed at length' because the proper way of dealing with the right wrist is clearly not a self-evident movement because only about 1% of amateur golfers ever learn how to do it correctly.

If anything amateur golfers need to exaggerate trail wrist extension with a palm down action through impact 'if' they want to compress the ball to the maximum and reach their potential. But more to the point, they need to learn the technique that allows them to do it without forcing the move, and for right side dominant golfers it's usually best done with their dominant right forearm and wrist and transported directly straight to the golf club's grip, not [first] transported from the right hand into the left hand and then to the club's grip.

All is good - whatever works for you! ✓

Here's yet more palm down (unscrew the pickle jar lid) images for you to ponder. Kinda makes ya wonder if this is where the phrase 'Crank it!' came from...

[moehogan]

No thanks! You are reading way too much into what I am saying. The right hand pressures the left hand AND the grip ... it’s running the show, not ceding any responsibility to the left. All I’m saying is that there is a spot on the left hand that if pressured by the right in the correct direction will prevent the left wrist from extending.

[GreatStrike]

Okay. I got it - I'm with you.

Admittedly, everyone including myself finds it extremely difficult to convey certain thoughts and exacting details with written words alone.

[GreatStrike]

Do you think this tour player relies on his trail forearm/wrist/hand/finger forces to provide the essential conditions through the impact zone?

[lordemsworth]

That image is kind of disturbing.

:)

 

Great thread!

[Jobu]

Typists don't have calluses on their fingertips because they are developed from friction, not force.

[Golfbeat]

Exactly, the twisting creates friction. Guitarists have calluses on their fingertips as well.

[GreatStrike]

Actually, the proper characterization of what the fingers do is to make a 'twisting force', which causes 'torsion' and is called 'torque'. The calluses on the fingers occur from friction that is brought about by (wait for it) 'force' ... because without force there is no torque and without force there would not be friction. So, ya see, the use of the word 'force' was spot on! But, of course, you weren't making an effort to add anything worthwhile anyway...

[Jobu]

those calluses form after thousands of impacts with the ball and turf, not simply from swinging a golf club. Have you ever hit enough balls at one time that your glove fused to the open blisters on your fingers? Or do you give up before that happens?

[Golfbeat]

I am all in with the pickle jar but will occasionally hook it badly. Is there a countermove or should I tune down the twist?

[GreatStrike]

You know how once a new pickle jar has been opened the first time it is easier to open from then on. You're now at the time where the pickle jar has been opened before.

[Pepperturbo]

@Nail_It - I took up the game at 40yrs old, hitting approx 1k+ range balls a week x 52 wks, not including 1-2 rds of golf; do the math, no calluses either, and I was practicing martial arts weekly, etc. I reached high single digit in under 5yrs, and a low of 2 a few years later. Now at 70yrs old, I am playing to 3-4 and shot a 3 over yesterday from Championship 70.7/129 tees. My only point in sharing my journey is I am self-taught using 3 books, one of which was Ben Hogan's Five Lessons, The Modern Fundamentals of Golf where he talks about the grip, the other two books were by Jack Nicklaus and Nick Faldo.
Force behind a strike depends on how it's executed. I know a few men with 6th degree belts that don't have hands like that. I won't go into how many times those of us with skills strike training dummy's. IMO - Golf can be made simple or difficult, depends on one's IQ and athletic ability. The above image of an alleged tour players hands says he's doing something wrong. My uncle played on the PGA tour from 50s to 60s. His hands never looked like that, not even today and he's still playing a lot of golf into his mid-80s, still hitting his old MacGregor Blades with some force.

[moehogan]

 

Guess who these belonged to? ? He probably hit more balls than most and primarily used cord grips.

I played cords in the 70’s and had some callouses resembling these. I switched to velvet cords in the 80’s and eventually softer materials. As the grips got softer, there was less sliding in my grip and the callouses became less pronounced.

[GreatStrike]

@Pepperturbo The above image of an alleged tour players hands says he's doing something wrong. 
For your information the 'alleged tour player's hands' you are referring to happens to be the hands of 38 year-old Swedish professional tour player Alex Norén.
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/RZ911UBDIW71/image.png[/img]
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/47CKP21US89R/image.png[/img]
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/GLBDA5G8MRQ1/image.png[/img]
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/VH109NR13WBJ/image.png[/img]

[moehogan]

“I’ve always had calluses. It’s partly down to hitting a lot of balls, but I’ve always thought my grip slides in the swing a little bit, which isn’t a good thing. People say you must work hard, and I say that I do, but my club also slides around. “Even my coach says ‘you must be sliding, because it’s not good to look like that!’ Your hands also get dirty on a range session, so that picture Kristoffer Broberg took a couple of years ago and posted on social media looks a little worse!”

Alex NorenEDIT: The above is a direct quote from Alex Noren!

[bilbry57]

This video is great keeping right wrist bent and rotating left forearm together is a great feeling and it compresses the heck out of the ball. The visual of swinging in front of mirror is very helpful

[Carlito]

 

Moe, the above post was such a massive support in understanding the whole context. Thank you for your input.

Nail and you are ranked on the same level. Playing in the same team will be a huge benefit for all of us. Cheers!

[mufasis]

Trail hand facing down and keeping it in flexion is the key to release the most energy and compress the ball. If you keep your hands relatively soft and in transition when the club starts to shallow, you keep the body moving, your hands have no choice but to lead in to a really solid powerful impact position. If your hips stop you will hit a nasty hook and if your hips are too fast you will block the ball. The key is really syncing all these movements together. The release happens after the ball and will occur naturally.

[GreatStrike]

For those of you (and I'm sure there are quite a few) that can't quite wrap your head around the concept of the trail hand palm facing downward (and unscrewing the pickle jar), there is another equally eccentric concept that I've mentioned before but it's probably a good time to bring it back. Sean Clement's 'Baton Twirl'.

As strange as Sean Clement's palm-up to palm-down 'Baton Twirl' technique may seem to some people still searching for something that 'clicks' for them, this just might hit home if they would only give it a serious try. While it's a little bit different concept from the 'palm-down to unscrew the pickle jar' analogy the 'Baton Twirl' is in the same vein or along the same line with it. Be sure to absorb what Sean demonstrates. Give it an honest try.

 

[Pepperturbo]

Looks like Ben Hogan's hands with pretty much no calluses thanks to proper grip and hand care. @Nail_It - Do you think posting all the pictures of Alex Norens (good guy) holding trophy's has some bearing or is an excuse for his callused hands? Sorry IMO calluses and proper grip are not about trophy's but hands. However, if Trophy's are subject in conjunction with calloused hands, I pick Ben Hogan's 64 wins over Norens 11 wins with ugly callused hands.
I learned my grip from my Uncle who played on the PGA tour in the 50s and 60s, and Ben Hogan's book. I trust what I learned too, as my hands have NO calluses and I hit over ten-thousand range balls in first five years. No biggy - have a good day.

[GreatStrike]

It was you who said; "The above image of an alleged tour players hands says he's doing something wrong."  Alex Norén would disagree with you, but what does he know!

You said; "I learned my grip from my Uncle who played on the PGA tour in the 50s and 60s and Ben Hogan's book." Very impressive, especially the book!

[Pepperturbo]

Yep I said that and Noren could disagree. Norens wins do not invalid my opinion or Ben Hogans opinion on the grip. Neither of them are in this discussion, but I bet Hogan would agree with me after seeing Norens hands. Hogan was big on maintaining a proper grip. Have a good day.

[GreatStrike]

@Pepperturbo - Ben Hogan is certainly not in this discussion, but neither is Alex Norén or your uncle. If you are suggesting there is only one proper way to grip a golf club and Ben Hogan's Five Lessons book and your uncle's way is the only way to have a [so-called] proper grip, then we will have to totally disagree.
A proper grip can range from one extreme to the other extreme - from super strong to super weak, from fingers to palm, from ten finger to left/right hand three fingers, from super firm to super light, from ulnar deviated to slightly radial deviated, from the trail hand on the grip at impact to off the grip at impact, from long thumb to short thumb...and so on and so forth.
So, the picture depicted in Mr. Hogan's Five Lesson's book is just that - only a sketch or drawing to illustrate his grip with the author's written word describing it. The Hogan grip happens to be very different from Byron Nelson's grip, Sam Snead's grip, Jack Nicklaus' grip, Vijay Singh's grip, Tiger Woods' grip and the list goes on and on and on... Furthermore, some players practice much more than others so they are more prone to have calluses, and some players use harsh cord grips, and some players don't wear a glove at all or wear a very thin glove, and some players have more of a propensity to develop calluses and skin lesions than others. So, your opinion of Ben Hogan's grip really means very little considering the multitude of different grips that tour players have adopted...including the grip of Alex Norén. You have a good day too...

[Pepperturbo]

No, I am not suggesting only one way to grip the club, never even implied that. Fact is, I use two grip styles, Harry Vardon (Ben Hogan's style) grip most of the time but when I want certain type trajectory or using a wedge, I switch to reverse overlap grip, and still hit the ball hard.

A certain grip is NOT the issue, but how one grips the club that does or does not cause calluses. Doing something basically wrong and living with it has consequences for that person, NOT me. Like some people I know that drive stick shifts badly, they ride the brake and over-brake. They can drive a car for a long time, yet imagine what the consequences typically are.

It's not how hard we hit the ball its how hard we grip the club during the strike and how often it's done. Doesn't matter tour player or amateur. If someone is gripping the club so hard calluses are the result, it's not the proper way to grip the club.

There's a right way and wrong way to do things in golf and other sports, and people that play sports and teach it know that. Even when it comes to swing mechanics, yet there are a few odd ball swings on the PGA, that isn't messed with like Furyk's. He makes his swing work without detrimental consequences, that we know of. Tiger made his powerful swing work for a long time, but his back now pays the price. Norens consequences are what his hands look like and what ever is underneath all those calluses. Does anybody really care, nope, not even me. lol I am done, later.

[dap]

Hogan had callouses. He might have cut or sanded them down if they got too thick as they might crack and bleed.

According to Ben Hogan, callouses are normal. In his book, "Five Lessons," he has a diagram showing exactly where callouses should be located. On the left hand, they should be located as follows:

One each, on the hand, below the middle, ring and pinky finger. One on the bottom of the middle finger. One on the inside middle of the ring finger. Two on the pinky. One on the top inside and the other directly in the middle. Finally, one on the right side of the palm.

[GreatStrike]

These guys must not be any good because they get blisters and calluses...

 

[dap]

Hogan said most of his competitors had callouses on their ass’s, not their hands.

[GreatStrike]

Pepperturbo kinda sidetracked us with the grip that his uncle taught him, but...here's a related [grip] topic since we moved off-topic that may be very helpful.

Not only are there many different types of grips used by tour pros and expert players, but finding the correct one for you personally is not always easy. They run the gamut from strong to weak, a finger grip versus palm, ten finger or Vardon or Spieth, firm or light, long thumb or short thumb, etc. Some people have long thin fingers, some have short fat fingers, some have a thumb that is double jointed which can be bent-back to touch their forearm and some are stiff jointed. Finding the best grip is difficult to say the least, and most golfers I'm quite sure just end up with some form of a grip they hope will work out for them...and then they look for help with all the other various pieces and parts of their swing in hopes of turning pro breaking 80 some day.

One of the things pertaining to the grip that often causes perplexing swing issues is the left thumb. Golfers that choose to use a so-called long thumb have far more of a tendency to cause themselves early extension (casting) or simply the inability to sustain lag during the downswing, which is caused by the thumb pushing out on the side of the club's grip. If you have a long thumb and/or have a habit of wearing out your glove in the thumb and/or wearing out a scalloped depression in your clubs' grip where your left thumb touches the grip, then you might want to experiment with a short thumb. Just a suggestion...  

[Carlito]

 

Take a look at the views.... can this be true?

Nail_it, i think you really touched a nerve!