Has anyone had "adjusted differential" kick in?

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

As I said in December of 2019, the PCC would be much ado about nothing. 

I agree, this is one of the concepts that was absorbed from a few of the Handicap Systems around the world (CONGU is one).  Perhaps in some cases it helps accuracy, its certainly not harmful, but the impact is relatively small.  I believe when I attended a Handicap Seminar back in December they were estimating that the PCC would be in effect less than 10% of the time, and it seems to be working out to be much less often than even that.  I do wonder if its working out the way the WHS developers had intended, and if not, whether the (secret) calculation will be revised slightly.

[ThinkingPlus]

5 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I agree, this is one of the concepts that was absorbed from a few of the Handicap Systems around the world (CONGU is one).  Perhaps in some cases it helps accuracy, its certainly not harmful, but the impact is relatively small.  I believe when I attended a Handicap Seminar back in December they were estimating that the PCC would be in effect less than 10% of the time, and it seems to be working out to be much less often than even that.  I do wonder if its working out the way the WHS developers had intended, and if not, whether the (secret) calculation will be revised slightly.

I suspect we aren't seeing the expected effect because folks are not as diligent posting scores on the day of play as the USGA assumed.

[Halebopp]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

Perhaps in some cases it helps accuracy, its certainly not harmful, but the impact is relatively small.  I believe when I attended a Handicap Seminar back in December they were estimating that the PCC would be in effect less than 10% of the time, and it seems to be working out to be much less often than even that.

 

The less than 10% was also the number we were given as an estimate. But I'd say it is harmful as handicaps aren't updated in real time and attestation of scores returned online had to be done away with to get the scores into the system in time.

 

For the courses at our club the PCC has lead to an adjustment on 8% of the days on one course and on 28% of the days on the other. For comparison the similar CBA (Computed Buffer Adjustment) in the EGA system was supposed to kick in in about 20% of competitions but it affected some 60-70% of the scores on the latter course. The Course Rating System simply falls apart on that course.

[Augster]

7 hours ago, Halebopp said:

 

The less than 10% was also the number we were given as an estimate. But I'd say it is harmful as handicaps aren't updated in real time and attestation of scores returned online had to be done away with to get the scores into the system in time.

 

For the courses at our club the PCC has lead to an adjustment on 8% of the days on one course and on 28% of the days on the other. For comparison the similar CBA (Computed Buffer Adjustment) in the EGA system was supposed to kick in in about 20% of competitions but it affected some 60-70% of the scores on the latter course. The Course Rating System simply falls apart on that course.

That sounds like that course needs to be rerated. Or is it a resort course where most people play it for the first time, play it one time, then post? All 3 of my PLUS PCC adjustments were in tourneys with players that don’t play at the course. 

[Halebopp]

6 hours ago, Augster said:

That sounds like that course needs to be rerated. Or is it a resort course where most people play it for the first time, play it one time, then post? All 3 of my PLUS PCC adjustments were in tourneys with players that don’t play at the course. 

 

It was rerated last year and the ratings stayed practically the same. The rating system isn't perfect and it's simply one of those courses that showcase those imperfections.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Not once has pcc kicked in this season for myself nor anyone I know. 

[Wendy123]

3 times, all at my home club. Twice it was +1, once it was -1.

[deadsolid...shank]

I don’t have many scores posted this year, and most of the few were in normal conditions, so I haven’t expected to see any adjustments up,to,this point. 
 

But Sunday we played in sustained 25mph winds with gusts topping 40, it was nasty. Scores from my group were higher than normal. Haven’t seen any adjustments yet. There is a possibility that there weren’t enough rounds posted. A lot of people packed it in when the gusts started hitting. 

[North Butte]

Out of 102 rounds I've posted so far this year there have been 6 adjustments (all -1) and none of them since mid-July. In fact, 4 of those 6 adjustments happened in a 12-day period immediately after our greens were punched which makes sense. For a little while there was sand on the greens and they were not being cut low each day so they were slow and all the subtle breaks disappeared. 

 

Other than during the punched-greens period there was one apparently random round in May and another in July. I'd imagine just by happenstance there's a handful of days per year when scores just happen to be lower or higher than usual and a PCC kicks in.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, North Butte said:

Out of 102 rounds I've posted so far this year there have been 6 adjustments (all -1)

 

I have had 3 / 59, all -1. So not very often. Two of them are from late September and my guess is the LC&P as the condition of the courses is not nearly the same as in mid or late summer.

[davep043]

At my home club, there have been PCC adjustments posted for only 10 days this year.  There were three positive (scoring was high) all in the spring, the remainder were -1 through the summer and fall.

[jvincent]

I'm at 90 rounds this season and have had no PCC adjustments yet. That includes some really windy days and a couple of rounds in the rain. I don't know if it's because enough people aren't posting in the bad conditions or we're just decent bad weather players.

 

Our season is over in a couple of weeks so I'm guessing there won't be any.

[Long_Left]

Just went back to look mine over (25ish rounds posted) and found a +3 posted for a single round on a recent golf trip. It was a cool morning with a very light rain off and on but nothing extraordinary, no significant wind... Played and posted a second round that afternoon and it was not adjusted...

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Long_Left said:

Just went back to look mine over (25ish rounds posted) and found a +3 posted for a single round on a recent golf trip. It was a cool morning with a very light rain off and on but nothing extraordinary, no significant wind... Played and posted a second round that afternoon and it was not adjusted...

 

An error obviously.

[GSDriver]

Still waiting for that to kick-in.  Never has yet, and played in some serious slop and silly winds.

[mark m]

Like others I have played in some difficult conditions, particularly  on my home course - I live in MN (nuff said) - but not one of the scores has a PCC. I play in a larger group with a throw in game and scores were high across the board and our winning low net scores were high on those days as well. It's no big deal, but just a little surprising.

 

I have 43 posted scores this season with just one PCC (-1) and it was from a state championship at a course in the south metro. A couple of facts makes this somewhat surprising. The event was our state senior fourball over 36 holes. The second round was the score which has the PCC adjustment of -1. 

 

A few points:

1. The association uses Golf Genius and live scoring but they did not post scores for this tournament. They have in the past but did not this year. Not sure why? It's very easy to do when the scores are in the system. Perhaps they have changed their minds on fourball scores? I really don't know if this was a policy change or not? Everything was a little different this year due to the pandemic. The TD told me they would not be posting but to post the scores on my own. (It looks like the Committee did post scores in individual stroke play championships.) So I posted my own scores. Other competitors did not. More on that to follow.

2. The course: IMO the course was set up properly both days for this tournament. The tees were set in the proper positions (near the yardage plates for the tips) and the greens were running good. Our TD is known for difficult hole locations in our championships and many were difficult. I would say about 3 to 4 were a little easier on day 2 - which could be the reason. They were in spots were you could use slopes to get the ball close if you hit a good shot. But there was more wind on day 2 - which made some approach shots much more difficult. I personally played well both days but my score on day 1 was 2 shots better then on day 2. 

3. General public also played after us on both days. Maybe those scores made the difference?

4. Some of the guys who played very well did not post scores for either round. I am talking about gross scores between 65 and 70. Makes me wonder what would have happened if they did post their own scores? Perhaps we would have had a PCC for each round and a lower PCC for round 2?

 

Overall, as others have said, the PCC adjustment is not significant. 

 

In regards to the GHIN app, my opinion hasn't changed since the beginning of the season. The new version is better in some areas. The stats and handicap calculator work very well. But we took two steps back in peer review with the "golfer lookup" section. The 2019 version had more info at your fingertips and was much better then the current version.

[Augster]

10 hours ago, mark m said:

Like others I have played in some difficult conditions, particularly  on my home course - I live in MN (nuff said) - but not one of the scores has a PCC. I play in a larger group with a throw in game and scores were high across the board and our winning low net scores were high on those days as well. It's no big deal, but just a little surprising.

 

I have 43 posted scores this season with just one PCC (-1) and it was from a state championship at a course in the south metro. A couple of facts makes this somewhat surprising. The event was our state senior fourball over 36 holes. The second round was the score which has the PCC adjustment of -1. 

 

A few points:

1. The association uses Golf Genius and live scoring but they did not post scores for this tournament. They have in the past but did not this year. Not sure why? It's very easy to do when the scores are in the system. Perhaps they have changed their minds on fourball scores? I really don't know if this was a policy change or not? Everything was a little different this year due to the pandemic. The TD told me they would not be posting but to post the scores on my own. (It looks like the Committee did post scores in individual stroke play championships.) So I posted my own scores. Other competitors did not. More on that to follow.

2. The course: IMO the course was set up properly both days for this tournament. The tees were set in the proper positions (near the yardage plates for the tips) and the greens were running good. Our TD is known for difficult hole locations in our championships and many were difficult. I would say about 3 to 4 were a little easier on day 2 - which could be the reason. They were in spots were you could use slopes to get the ball close if you hit a good shot. But there was more wind on day 2 - which made some approach shots much more difficult. I personally played well both days but my score on day 1 was 2 shots better then on day 2. 

3. General public also played after us on both days. Maybe those scores made the difference?

4. Some of the guys who played very well did not post scores for either round. I am talking about gross scores between 65 and 70. Makes me wonder what would have happened if they did post their own scores? Perhaps we would have had a PCC for each round and a lower PCC for round 2?

 

Overall, as others have said, the PCC adjustment is not significant. 

 

In regards to the GHIN app, my opinion hasn't changed since the beginning of the season. The new version is better in some areas. The stats and handicap calculator work very well. But we took two steps back in peer review with the "golfer lookup" section. The 2019 version had more info at your fingertips and was much better then the current version.

I agree about the GHIN app. It is superior in nearly every way to it’s former predecessor. Except for other player’s stats. We used to be able to see all the scores for the year a player had. Now we can only look at their last 20. 
 

One of my friends was accused of not posting all his scores. He shot a 68 about 3 weeks ago, but we can’t remember the date. Others have accused him, to me, about not posting his low scores. I wanted to look him up, but he plays every day so the 68 may not have been posted, or it may have already fallen off. Without directly asking him to show us his scoring record, there’s no way to peer review. It’s frustrating if you’re trying to build a case for the handicap chair to look into. 
 

Here’s to hoping we get to see all the scores for each player next year. 

[Mcgeeno]

Maybe five out of 104 on the year.

 

[phil75070]

In 156 rounds this year I have had 4 PCC adjustments. Three of them have been -1 and one has been +1. One of the problems I see is that on very bad days weather-wise, either not enough handicapped players are playing that day to reach the threshold for adjustment (8 rounds?) or, out of "vanity", too many aren't posting their scores that day. Thus, one's round doesn't get the adjustment that would seem to be warranted having played in adverse conditions that day. Given the apparent miniscule impact of PCC on handicap over the course of season/year (4 adjustments out of 156 rounds!) why even bother with it?

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, phil75070 said:

why even bother with it?

 Or, why even bother worrying about it? 🙄

[dasams]

On 6/21/2020 at 7:37 AM, Seamus_McDuff said:

 

Looks like it is correct. When the PCC is -1 you add 1 to the posted score before differential calculation.

The easy way to remember this is to subtract the PCC from your score.  So in the example above, the PCC adjusted score is 84 - (-1) = 85.  So it was an easy scoring day and the player's ability that day was deemed an 85 rather than an 84.  Or that's the logic.

Edited October 18, 2020 by dasams

[third-times-a-charm]

I get PCC corrections quite a bit during Jan-April on my home course - due to the conditions leading up to the Arnold Palmer Invitational, and also shortly after. It's brutal.

[davep043]

On 10/17/2020 at 10:09 AM, phil75070 said:

why even bother with it?

When you try to (begin to) unify six different systems, the best way to build a consensus is to adapt portions of every one.  Several systems have used some type of daily adjustment for years, and apparently they've seen enough value in it to want it included in the WHS.  The impact is relatively small, so it certainly shouldn't be objectionable to anyone.  As @sui generis says, why should you bother to worry about it?

[North Butte]

In other words, it's an ultimately meaningless sop to the CONGU way of doing things. 

 

Like so many of the changes to the USGA system, it is window dressing to cover up the fact that the two systems are no more comparable than they've ever been. A system based (almost) entirely on attested competition scores is never going to yield the same handicaps as one open for posting any number someone chooses to type into their app. 

 

But hey, USGA got the Rest Of The World to adopt slope and course ratings so they certainly don't mind sticking in PCC and a few other dribbles of legacy CONGU stuff.

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, North Butte said:

In other words, it's an ultimately meaningless sop to the CONGU way of doing things. 

 

Like so many of the changes to the USGA system, it is window dressing to cover up the fact that the two systems are no more comparable than they've ever been. A system based (almost) entirely on attested competition scores is never going to yield the same handicaps as one open for posting any number someone chooses to type into their app. 

 

But hey, USGA got the Rest Of The World to adopt slope and course ratings so they certainly don't mind sticking in PCC and a few other dribbles of legacy CONGU stuff.

To be fair, there were more national associations than CONGU using a form of PCC - Golf Australia, European Golf Association as other examples.

And I expect more uniformity will evolve.  As with the Rules of golf, it's an evolution, not a revolution.

[Augster]

4 hours ago, North Butte said:

In other words, it's an ultimately meaningless sop to the CONGU way of doing things. 

 

Like so many of the changes to the USGA system, it is window dressing to cover up the fact that the two systems are no more comparable than they've ever been. A system based (almost) entirely on attested competition scores is never going to yield the same handicaps as one open for posting any number someone chooses to type into their app. 

 

But hey, USGA got the Rest Of The World to adopt slope and course ratings so they certainly don't mind sticking in PCC and a few other dribbles of legacy CONGU stuff.

Figuring my cap using comp scores only vs. 8/20, my comp score cap would be 0.2 higher. 
 

If you keep a legit cap, it’ll be close enough to compare to other parts of the world once they adopt WHS and use slope and course rating. 
 

Is it easier to sandbag the US system? Of course. But legit cap vs. legit cap will eventually be comparable anywhere in the world. 

[jonnymc44]

We adopt WHS tomorrow in England, and so my HI has been newly calculated. In the calculations PCC has been kicked in 5 times from the compeition rounds I've played in the last year or so. Most are +1 (rare instance of +2, but that was due to small field and difficult conditions), and one instance of -1.

 

[Halebopp]

1 hour ago, jonnymc44 said:

We adopt WHS tomorrow in England, and so my HI has been newly calculated. In the calculations PCC has been kicked in 5 times from the compeition rounds I've played in the last year or so. Most are +1 (rare instance of +2, but that was due to small field and difficult conditions), and one instance of -1.

 

 

Did they actually go back and calculate PCCs retroactively? My guess would've been that they simply took the Competition Scratch Score and put it in as a PCC adjustment. At least that's what they did with the similar CBA adjustment in the EGA system.

 

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Halebopp said:

 

Did they actually go back and calculate PCCs retroactively? My guess would've been that they simply took the Competition Scratch Score and put it in as a PCC adjustment. At least that's what they did with the similar CBA adjustment in the EGA system.

 

Yes, they took the difference between the CSS and the SSS and used it as the PCC.

But they forgot to do it at the first attempt. 🙄

Edited November 1, 2020 by Newby

[Obee]

Yes, in Bandon. A +1 when it should have been +3. Sustained 30 gusting to 50+