TENSEI AV Raw?

[deli_llama]

Aren’t these just graphic tweaks? Same materials, construction and specs right?

[BleederFade]

Definitely pretty foggy. Makes me wonder why they didn't go the Pro and "non-pro" route like they did with the Tensei CK line. Would allow clear distinction between the materials used and easier justification for an upcharge. Maybe the AV Raw is more of a complement to the current Tensei products than a gen 2.

[Valtiel]

Thats where the interesting aspect of market demand, popularity, and product cycles comes in I think. A cheaper "OEM" line is normally something that only comes about in response to the success of a premium line e.g. Fujikura Ventus gets a ton of tour adoption -> cheaper "non-Velocore" models are then produced for woods and irons. I think the same thing happened with the Tensei shafts, which IIRC were just a high-end premium "Pro" line until they exploded in popularity and created the demand for an OEM version. I suspect Mitsubishi faced some sort of production/material/design difficulty following the Tensei popularity and all the integration with Aldila since acquiring them that slowed down the creation of the follow up. I mean, look at the weird little AV Blue that was just sitting there by itself for ages. I'm pretty sure that was something rushed out to meet the demand for an OEM followup to the CK line since the full AV line clearly wasn't ready for whatever reason, and wouldn't be for ages.

Its all really strange from a customer perspective. You look at the Diamana/Kuro Kage/Tensei lines and they are all completely different in terms of how they are laid out and marketed, and which shaft is "premium" and which is not. Its like they are trying to find a production formula for how to balance premium and OEM lines and haven't figured it out yet. It reminds me of my days in social game development where product managers always wanted A/B tests (two different experiences for two different subsets of the player base) for the purpose of trying to gather data to determine which was best for whatever metric they were focusing on (retention, monetization, conversion etc etc). They would often add even more variants making it something like an A/B/C/D test, and when the results were inconclusive as to which user experience was "better", they just wanted to leave them there in case the data changed over time. I imagine it is something similar in the shaft world right now where they are trying to find a predictable marketing and production formula. Interesting stuff.

[cheeeezzz]

Which of the new AV Raw models would work best for someone who keeps going back to the trusty KK DC XT 60TX? I also have a PO 70TX in my 3w and get along great with that.

[Snax]

Does anyone know where the balance point in the new pro orange compares to the original?

[SUMM1T]

Are you referring to the AV Blue vs AV Blue Raw?

 

The AV Raw line vs CK Pro line are different models with very different feels. I just got a few Raws for my initial testing and what I've seen so far is great. The AV Blue Raw is a surprise winner for me. I was not a huge fan of the Tensei Pro Blue line at all, but the AV Raw Blue is a killer shaft.

[QuigleyDU]

have any numbers you can post?

[jonflesh]

Just curious what u didn’t like about the pro blue that you liked about the av?

 

I love the av blue raw as well, so I figured I would love the pro blue too but haven’t tried it. Interested to hear your take.

[storm3]

He is referring to the fact that the AV Blue from last year and the AV Blue Raw are literally the same with exception to the addition of the TX flex (which is likely a different shaft) and the updated cosmetics.

[storm3]

If anything I would say that the previous CK vs Pro lines were far more confusing especially since they did such a poor job with graphic differentiation initially. Also, the R and arguably the S flexes really weren't necessary in the Pro line so it makes sense to just drop it (just like the R flex Aldila Rogue 125msi, simply pointless at lower flexes). Would I prefer OEMs distinguishing shafts that are starkly different rather than lumping them together under the same model with different flexes and price points? Absolutely, but my guess is that they due this to save on marketing/trademark costs and the fact that they tend to benefit from consumer confusion.

[MITSUBISHI CHEMICAL]

We would recommend testing both the AV Raw White, and AV Raw Orange in 65TX.

 

If you get a chance, let us know how the testing goes!

[MITSUBISHI CHEMICAL]

The balance points in Tensei CK Pro Orange and AV RAW Orange will be close to identical. You shouldn't see any difference in swingweight if both builds are equal.

[gambit]

So is there any difference in performance one could expect? Pro Orange is by far my favorite shaft ever.

[QuigleyDU]

Thanks for commenting. I love when we can have companies on here.

[SUMM1T]

I'll get numbers posted as soon as I have enough data collected. I am waiting on my UniFit tips to arrive. I've got them tipped up with some different adapters at the moment.

 

The original Tensei Pro Blue felt "dead" to me in some ways. I tried it in the hybrids, fairways and drivers all last year in multiple heads and had the same feeling. The AV feels more lively in my opinion. It doesn't feel loose as well. I just put the AV Raw White in a SIM driver head and the AW Raw Orange in a G410 LST. Will be testing them today. I'll post my numbers when I get back from my studio. The AV Raw Blue is currently in a Tour Edge EXS Pro 13.5 3 wood and I'm absolutely loving it so far. Will get numbers later.

[SUMM1T]

The R and S flexes were very usable for me quite a bit last year.

[TollBros]

I will have some data up in the big bad low spin shaft thread later today. We will be starting with higher speeds and working our way down.

[storm3]

What I meant is at lower flexes like R there isn’t much need for higher modulus material vs the OEM program CK equivalent (especially when it makes little to no difference in the end result). According to Titleist’s shaft comparison tool, the Tensei Pro Blue 60 S cpm’d around the same in the butt as the OEM Diamana +plus blue 60 and Ltd 60, but actually cpm’d lower than both of those in the tip.

[cheeeezzz]

Very cool of you to respond directly. Thanks! Looking forward to trying these vs my Kuro.

[dan040286]

Is there a write up anywhere of what to expect from previous Tensei Pro to the AV Raw from a launch/spin/feel perspective?

[WeritoK2]

Glad I found this thread. Ok, I been playing the Tensei CK Pro White 60TX for a while now, after trying pretty much everything out there in my SIM MAX.

Being a whore to the core, once these RAW came out I went ahead and reached for my man Will at The Peoples Golf to hook me up with an AV RAW WHITE 60 X since I do believe TX is more an ego thing that what I really need.

Shaft was built and shipped the same day, got to me the day later. Awesome looking shaft, all specs good, head for a quick 9 just couple of hours ago.

This RAW Tensei feels way different, heavier, like a lot heavier, stiffer also, just a bit. Launch was the same as my CK PRO WHITE 60 TX, curvature was less, what I thought was going to be a hook was actually a draw and when I felt I sliced it 60 yards, it was a fade that stayed in the rough. That was something I kept seeing, dispersion great.

Distance was way off, I mean at least 20 yards when hit perfect and the shaft feels weird, idk man.

After reading the whole thread and realizing the TX models in the RAW line are at least $75 more, I am pretty sure the lack of "premium" or different materials is what's giving me these results.

Expensive experiment, will continue to test the shaft this weekend but I am all disappointed as of now.

That will show me to wait and GET FITTED!

 

[WeritoK2]

[WeritoK2]

[Valtiel]

I wouldn't necessarily attribute it directly to "premium" materials as much as simply differences in profile that the lack of those materials lead to. I can not say for sure as independent EI profiles are not widely available yet, but if the Tensei CK line was anything to go by, the OEM and "Premium" versions are basically two completely different shafts with the same paint job. Take for example the CK Orange and CK Blue vs. their CK Pro counterparts:

You can see with the Blue the significant increase in both tip and butt stiffness that are a product of the full length carbon kevlar handles weave and boron fiber tip reinforcement. Similar story with the CK Orange, which is basically the same profile as the CK Blue. Softer throughout and less linear overall. If the same differences exist between the AV Raw and AV Raw TX, which I expect they do to some extent, then that it likely the weirdness you are feeling. Balance point should also be noted as the entire CK Pro line was fairly high in terms of balance due to the weight of the CK weave, and I believe the AV line was meant to be more neutral, which could also explain some of the heaviness you are feeling.

[ukbigbluechad]

I have hit the PO series since it came out. 60/70TX in driver, 80TX in 3W, 90TX in 5W, and a 100TX in my driving iron. My favorite shaft of all time. I purchased a new Orange AV Raw 65TX from Will at The People’s Clubs and had my Mavrik SZ weighted up to D5 at 45 1/2”. I hit the combo 4 times with center strikes and the shaft felt super, super soft and the ball went straight up in the air. It was tipped 1” just like my PO 60TX and the shafts feel nothing alike. Haven’t hit it since but will try again tomorrow. Not happy at all at this point. Just my .02

[agood3putt]

Interested to see how the AV Raw line fairs against the CK Pro models

[ukbigbluechad]

Hit the AV better today but ball flight is a little high. Going to stick with the PO.

[jbo89]

I just got fitted into a PO/70tx. What difference, if any, could I see in the RAW orange tx?

[Fairways_and_Greens]

Lol. Does it get it's own pillow sleeping next to you?

[ddd908]

Here's a review for anyone that's interested:https://teesandcoins.com/features/mitsubishi-chemical-tensei-av-raw-orange-shaft-review/