Dynamic lie vs static lie

[mcadenhead]

I was fit into my irons a little over a year ago, and was fit into lie angles that are 2 degree upright from Mizuno spec making a 63.5 degree lie angle on my 7 iron. During a lesson last night, dynamic lie was 61.5. This may be a dumb question, but should lie angles be bent to match dynamic lie instead of what I was measured for?

 

Thanks.

[driveandputtmachine]

Static lie angles are a "lie". So I am guessing you were measured with just wrist to floor or even off of a lie board for your lie angle?

Hopefully Howard will respond, but there is a thread here where all you need is a dry erase marker and a line on the ball to tell if your lie angles are wrong.

As far as using a trackman or launch monitor to determine lie angles, I know Howard has experience with that as well and can probably help.

[Howard_Jones]

Sound like the fitting was done using a lie board? and your preferred ball flight is a draw?

Take a lie angle check using the ball marker method, it will probably tell you to go 1 or 2 flat vs what they are now.

The ball marker method is simple, use a whiteboard pen/dry erase marker, and draw a thin long strait line on the ball.

Place the ball with that line as vertical as you can against the face at address. Hit 2-3 ball like that, and look at the line the ball prints on the face.

If the line is vertical, lie angles is good, but expect them to have a ANGLE like you see here, where that angle means 1 or 2 FLAT (the red lines)

Upload the photos of the face here if you are un-secure of how much adjustment thats needed.

Dynamic lie angle from Trackman is what Trackman means is the right lie angle for that club, in this case 61.50* or standard for you.

[Howard_Jones]

[mcadenhead]

Thanks Howard. My initial fitting was a combo of a static fit plus hitting off of the lie board. In your opinion, is Trackman's dynamic angle a reliable way of determining proper angle? I have access to Trackman weekly during my lessons, and they can bend my irons there.

[Howard_Jones]

I never used the latest version with dynamic lie angle so i have no experience with that, but the ball marker test want fool you, so i still suggest you use that one to know.

What i do know is that most users of lie boards has a lack of education and dont know what the sole impact marks actually tells them, so its very common that players ends up with lie angles 1-2* more upright than whats correct. Its a VERY long story to explain it, but for short, in 8 out of 9 cases, lie angle judgement would be wrong when a lie board is used, so the chances they are wrong and Trackman is right already points in that direction due to the odds alone, since the odds for wrong judgement from a lie board is 88.8%

The ONLY time they are able to make it right, is for players with a in to in path and neutral face angle, and that dont happen often, since we either have a different path, or a face angle thats either open or closed, so all the other combination will fool the user if he dont know this.

Take a ball marker test, and show us how that looked like

[sendtojohn1]

My wrist to floor and height dictates standard lie, but after using the white board marker trick at the range, everything needed to be 2-3* flat. I went flat in the irons and it's really helped. my primary miss used to be the heel hitting ground first and causing the ball to pull or hook.

[mcadenhead]

Rain making it impossible to try the marker test until this weekend. Curious to see how this turns out. As part of my lessons, I have moved slightly further away from the ball. Would that have an impact on lie angle as well?

[Howard_Jones]

lie angles is a product of shaft bending (toe drop) and your hands position at impact, so yes a ball further away from you using the same play length, might move your hand position at impact. (probably lower hands, and effective lie angle becomes higher, we compensate with a static lie against flat). The same ball marker test will tell you what happens no matter scenario, so you will be able to judge the direction of change needed, and here you can try out what ever ball position you like and see what happens in you case. Non of us is built equal, so what "moves we does" with our body is nothing we can say for sure before we have tried different scenarios or ball positions.

[CAT GOLFER]

I should do this, glad I stumbled on this thread.

[Howard_Jones]

Please take photos of the face and upload it if you want help with the judgement. You should be able to make it on your own just by comparing the face print with the label above, and its the ANGLE we look at NOT impact location, so the line dont have to end heel or toe side like the label might give the impression of.

[Awainer1]

Static lie angles are only a lie if you don’t know how to measure them.

[Francesc]

Thanks Howard for your marker method. I'll use it with my son's clubs. Simple, cheap, and efficient. 

[ChipNRun]

On 7/23/2020 at 3:33 PM, Howard_Jones said:

lie angles is a product of shaft bending (toe drop) and your hands position at impact,

 

My prior set of irons was Callaway X20 Tours. The original shafts were PX 5.0 - good direction, but just too heavy/firm for me. Had standard lie angles.

 

I had them reshafted with NS Pro 8950GH, R-flex. Shaft weight dropped from 115 grams to 97 grams. After a few rounds, I noticed the 3i and 4i were catching the toe sometimes, so I had them adjusted to a degree upright - problem solved. I suspect the toe down was greater with lighter shafts than originals.

[Terokoo]

Hello. I have ping g430 iron with red dot. I guess it is -1 degree flat.

 

I marked ball and hit all my clubs and line is not straight. 

shaft flex is regular but maybe I need stiffer?

 

i hit 9-iron about 135meter and 8-iron Carry is about 145meter  when I hit well.

 

I quite often hit thin shots. And fade. 
also Clubs static lie angle and trackman dynamic lie angle were quite different. About 4-5 degree

 

8-iron static is 63.8 and dynamic 69.1.

 

 https://share.icloud.com/photos/0e6OIAVDADmVYb4kivFxVUlHw

 

https://share.icloud.com/photos/078ykBPk317s1UQBXVXat7plw

 

https://share.icloud.com/photos/09emRL4SXK8NFiudCf1JBgFaw

https://share.icloud.com/photos/047dh5k_U5FE6wxT9NJXlWMWA

 

my 6-iron Club speed was today 81.4mph

 

and carry 160m

 

should I change lie angle up ? And how much? I measure that it is wrong 3degrees but it sound a lot

Edited September 9, 2024 by Terokoo

[Guest RobS]

1 hour ago, Terokoo said:

Hello. I have ping g430 iron with red dot. I guess it is -1 degree flat.

 

I marked ball and hit all my clubs and line is not straight. 

shaft flex is regular but maybe I need stiffer?

 

i hit 9-iron about 135meter and 8-iron Carry is about 145meter  when I hit well.

 

I quite often hit thin shots. And fade. 
also Clubs static lie angle and trackman dynamic lie angle were quite different. About 4-5 degree

 

8-iron static is 63.8 and dynamic 69.1.

 

 https://share.icloud.com/photos/0e6OIAVDADmVYb4kivFxVUlHw

 

https://share.icloud.com/photos/078ykBPk317s1UQBXVXat7plw

 

https://share.icloud.com/photos/09emRL4SXK8NFiudCf1JBgFaw

https://share.icloud.com/photos/047dh5k_U5FE6wxT9NJXlWMWA

 

my 6-iron Club speed was today 81.4mph

 

and carry 160m

 

should I change lie angle up ? And how much? I measure that it is wrong 3degrees but it sound a lot

If you chose red dot based on a static fitting or were actually fit to them, I'd suggest looking at your swing before adjusting.  This type of significant toe town impact is frequently the result of early extension (loosing your posture) and/or an over the top swing.  Bending the irons a few degrees upright in this type of situation can cause more problems than it solves. On the other hand, if you randomly ended up with red dot Ping (1* flat), and they don't fit to your body geometry, adjusting them may be the answer.

[Terokoo]

27 minutes ago, RobS said:

If you chose red dot based on a static fitting or were actually fit to them, I'd suggest looking at your swing before adjusting.  This type of significant toe town impact is frequently the result of early extension (loosing your posture) and/or an over the top swing.  Bending the irons a few degrees upright in this type of situation can cause more problems than it solves. On the other hand, if you randomly ended up with red dot Ping (1* flat), and they don't fit to your body geometry, adjusting them may be the answer.

I bought those using ping static Fitting . I am 173cm (5’8”) and wrist to floor is 83cm(32inc). I have quite long Arms relative to my height. 
 

My swing is now 0-2 degree out to in and typical iron shot is little fade or straight. Sometimes i push it right. 50 and 56 Wedge shots goes more straight  left but those Are standard lie clubs

[Guest RobS]

2 minutes ago, Terokoo said:

I bought those using ping static Fitting . I am 173cm (5’8”) and wrist to floor is 83cm(32inc). I have quite long Arms relative to my height. 
 

My swing is now 0-2 degree out to in and typical iron shot is little fade or straight. Sometimes i push it right. 50 and 56 Wedge shots goes more straight  left but those Are standard lie clubs

Given that information, I'd take a look at you swing before making any adjustments.  Dynamic lie of 69 with an 8i is extremely upright.  I bet you'll find that you've early extending/losing your posture causing you to stand the shaft up at impact.  My dynamic lie on TM with an 8i is around 64*.  I'm just shy of both 6'-3" and a 37" wtf for reference.

[LCG]

6 hours ago, Terokoo said:

I bought those using ping static Fitting . I am 173cm (5’8”) and wrist to floor is 83cm(32inc). I have quite long Arms relative to my height. 
 

My swing is now 0-2 degree out to in and typical iron shot is little fade or straight. Sometimes i push it right. 50 and 56 Wedge shots goes more straight  left but those Are standard lie clubs

What are your divots like on grass? Is the toe hitting significantly before the heel? 

[Terokoo]

Well. I guess I am hitting like Tiger. I rarely take divot. 

[Stuart_G]

16 hours ago, Terokoo said:

should I change lie angle up ? And how much? I measure that it is wrong 3degrees but it sound a lot

 

Based on the line test, I'd go 1* upright from what they are now.  Then go back and retest after the adjustment.

 

Static measurements are just a staring point and nothing significant about them being off, especially that little.   It's not any kind of reliable indicator that there is anything wrong with your swing.   If you do want to have your swing checked out, go see an actual pro to make a judgement on that.

 

FWIW, them being off 1* is not really what's causing that fade - but adjusting the lie angle might help a tiny bit.

 

3 hours ago, Terokoo said:

Well. I guess I am hitting like Tiger. I rarely take divot. 

 

That's ok - divots are useless when it comes to judging the lie angle fit of the club.

 

Edited September 10, 2024 by Stuart_G

[Terokoo]

I have been thinking that can that toe going down be caused by regular flex of shafts? I mean that shaft is flexing too much and club toe is going straighter because shaft is Bending too much

 

I hit driver 90-100mph and 7-iron around 80mph. 

[AzRoger]

If your G430 8 iron is bent to 63.8 degrees than that would make it ~1 degree upright, a blue dot, not a red dot.

[Stuart_G]

2 hours ago, Terokoo said:

I have been thinking that can that toe going down be caused by regular flex of shafts? I mean that shaft is flexing too much and club toe is going straighter because shaft is Bending too much

 

First of all, what makes you think the shaft is flexing too much?    Second, unless you don't like the feel of how much it's loading and the feel of too much loading is causing problems with your swing, there really isn't any other metric that would indicate that too much flex is happening.

 

[Terokoo]

4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

First of all, what makes you think the shaft is flexing too much?    Second, unless you don't like the feel of how much it's loading and the feel of too much loading is causing problems with your swing, there really isn't any other metric that would indicate that too much flex is happening.

 

Just feel. I tried today i530 and i230 with dynamic gold mid 105 stiff shaft and 

it felt great. Black dot and 7-iron. 
 

It felt that there is some weight in club. And it also made my swing a bit less agressive. 
 

i230 was maybe a bit too difficult to me. but both were  easier than my g430. 
 

But those g430 are better now when those Are now bended 2up to red dot

[Stuart_G]

14 hours ago, Terokoo said:

Just feel. I tried today i530 and i230 with dynamic gold mid 105 stiff shaft and 

it felt great. Black dot and 7-iron.

 

That's fine - but that's not really any kind of indication that it has anything to do with the lie angle fitting or results. 

 

And if fact if you adjust those as I indicated it takes the 430 from it's current red dot to a black dot - the same as the i530's and i230's you tested that worked better.

 

14 hours ago, Terokoo said:

It felt that there is some weight in club. And it also made my swing a bit less agressive. 

i230 was maybe a bit too difficult to me. but both were  easier than my g430.

 

 

In which case the lie angle likely has nothing to do with the problems you're having with the g430 - the shaft stiffness alone is enough to cause the trouble you're having with that set.

 

 

14 hours ago, Terokoo said:

But those g430 are better now when those Are now bended 2up to red dot

 

Not sure I understand this - it doesn't make sense based on what you posted earlier.   So there might be some confusion here.

 

red dot is 1* flat which is what you said they were when you did the line test.   And the line test only indicated the need to bend it back 1* from -1 to 0* (standard black dot).    If you did bend them 2* up - it would take them to a blue dot, not to a red dot.

Edited September 16, 2024 by Stuart_G

[Terokoo]

6 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

That's fine - but that's not really any kind of indication that it has anything to do with the lie angle fitting or results. 

 

And if fact if you adjust those as I indicated it takes the 430 from it's current red dot to a black dot - the same as the i530's and i230's you tested that worked better.

 

 

 

In which case the lie angle likely has nothing to do with the problems you're having with the g430 - the shaft stiffness alone is enough to cause the trouble you're having with that set.

 

 

 

Not sure I understand this - it doesn't make sense based on what you posted earlier.   So there might be some confusion here.

 

red dot is 1* flat which is what you said they were when you did the line test.   And the line test only indicated the need to bend it back 1* from -1 to 0* (standard black dot).    If you did bend them 2* up - it would take them to a blue dot, not to a red dot.

Sorry. My English is not perfect. Those were red dot and now Blue dot. 

[LCG]

On 9/10/2024 at 5:01 AM, Stuart_G said:

 

Based on the line test, I'd go 1* upright from what they are now.  Then go back and retest after the adjustment.

 

Static measurements are just a staring point and nothing significant about them being off, especially that little.   It's not any kind of reliable indicator that there is anything wrong with your swing.   If you do want to have your swing checked out, go see an actual pro to make a judgement on that.

 

FWIW, them being off 1* is not really what's causing that fade - but adjusting the lie angle might help a tiny bit.

 

 

That's ok - divots are useless when it comes to judging the lie angle fit of the club.

 

Just curious but why do you think divots are useless? If lie angle is 2* flat from where they need the divots are likely toe deep. 

[Stuart_G]

1 minute ago, LCG said:

Just curious but why do you think divots are useless? If lie angle is 2* flat from where they need the divots are likely toe deep. 

 

Because divots only tell you what the lie angle might have been after impact (and actually quite a bit after relative to the impact time), not what it is right at impact. 

1) It doesn't take much face rotation through impact to artificially alter the apparent lie angle

and more importantly

2) impact with the ball itself causes the toe to drop giving the false impression of needing a more upright lie angle.

 

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/ballflight/downdeflect.php

 

[LCG]

On 9/17/2024 at 3:21 PM, Stuart_G said:

 

Because divots only tell you what the lie angle might have been after impact (and actually quite a bit after relative to the impact time), not what it is right at impact. 

1) It doesn't take much face rotation through impact to artificially alter the apparent lie angle

and more importantly

2) impact with the ball itself causes the toe to drop giving the false impression of needing a more upright lie angle.

 

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/ballflight/downdeflect.php

 

That’s great information. Completely agree that impact can force the club down to creat a divot but I didn’t see anything about impact causing the toe to go down. Or did I miss it?