Options on taking unplayable lie after tee shot

[ChipNRun]

I was playing in an area tournament today, and had a problem on a short, tight par 4. It's one of those holes that makes your teeth ache as you line up your tee shot. Here's a sketch of the hole, and the route which two of our tee shots regrettably took.

The other guy's shot flew into the hazard, and mine ended up in a little bowl six feet short of the hazard.  My options:

  *  Lateral relief/Two club lengths: I had a shaggy hillside lie, and tree branches were handing down in the shot line. No benefit.

  *  Stroke and distance: Go back to tee box (location of original shot)

  * Take back on line of flight??? I was confused by the example of Jordan Speith walking back 100 yards from the location of his wayward tee shot in the 2017 Open Championship. I was told I would have to walk backwards into the draw to take this option (blue line, right image). After the Speith example, I thought I could take the ball back along the teeshot's line of flight (yellow line, right image).

 

Rules guys: Was the blue line or the gold line my proper option had I elected for "take back on line of flight?" 

 

(Note: I decided to play the shot as it lay and took a snowman 8.)

[sui generis]

R19.2b says: The player may drop the original ball or another ball in a relief area that is based on a reference line going straight back from the hole through the spot of the original ball.

 

That looks like your blue line.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=19

 

[Sawgrass]

Don’t forget you can take two unplayable ball penalties and possibly get about four club lengths to the side at the cost of two strokes.

[Augster]

Line of flight is an urban legend. It has never been correct. It was made up by guys that want to drop in the fairway under penalty of 1 stroke. 

[Hawkeye77]

Still remember my daughter at regional qualifier for HS state golf having to get the paperback rules book out because a player who duck hooked into the water off the tee wanted to walk the ball back on "line of flight" and was nearly convincing the two other girls in their group that would be okay and had to see it in black and white to let it go. The scorer for the group, who was an experienced golfer and knew the rules, had a hard time keeping quiet (they were not allowed to advise or intervene on anything rules related) but let me know near the next tee box he was glad and relieved it was done properly and was more than a little surprised a player had the rules book in her bag. 

 

Had a guy in a club/club "Ryder Cup" try the same thing when his ball was in tall grass near trees and OB fence and his penalty drop wasn't going to be far enough - I just said "no such thing" with a smile and raised eyebrows and he smiled back and winked (he knew but gave it a try, lol) and took a proper drop.  

 

Urban legend may be an understatement, lol, when it comes to line of flight - that's the one I hear more than any other misconception.

[Newby]

8 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

 

  * Take back on line of flight??? I was confused by the example of Jordan Speith walking back 100 yards from the location of his wayward tee shot in the 2017 Open Championship. I was told I would have to walk backwards into the draw to take this option (blue line, right image). After the Speith example, I thought I could take the ball back along the teeshot's line of flight (yellow line, right image).

 

 

Speith did not take "line of flight". In effect he took the blue line in your diagram.

 

As posted above

R19.2b says: The player may drop the original ball or another ball in a relief area that is based on a reference line going straight back from the hole through the spot of the original ball.

[ChipNRun]

@sui generis, @Newby,

 

Quote

R19.2b says: The player may drop the original ball or another ball in a relief area that is based on a reference line going straight back from the hole through the spot of the original ball.

 

Guys, thanks for clarification. I was hung up on what original ball meant, as was an assistant pro I asked for clarification post-round.

 

I should have walked back on the blue line, taken +1 penalty, and chipped out to the fairway to set up a 130-yard 8i.

 

(Further adventure: I could have only walked back about 20 yards without stepping OB! As I said, it's a tight hole.)

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by ChipNRun

[Mr. Bean]

18 minutes ago, ChipNRun said:

@sui generis, @Newby,

 

 

Guys, thanks for clarification. I was hung up on what original ball meant, as was an assistant pro I asked for clarification post-round.

 

 

No wonder he is still just an assistant...

[denkea]

Had a friend of mine, a 5 handicapper, try to take "line of Flight" for an unplayable.  I told him "there's no such thing as line of flight in the rules of golf".  I was surprised that he didn't know that. 

[limegreengent]

The time to be surprised is when you get the correct answer from the club professional or top players!!?

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, greenman said:

The time to be surprised is when you get the correct answer from the club professional or top players!!?

 

C'mon now, they're not always wrong.

 

Played in a "formal" tournament in Myrtle Beach years ago. A FC, hitting a wedge over a pond (yellow stakes) hit outside of the hazard and it came back in. He wanted to drop green side. I told him he couldn't, he'd have to re-hit from behind the pond.

 

Another FC, a Boston redneck (go figure ) insisted the guy was correct and he could drop up near the green.

 

After a short, somewhat heated discussion, I suggested he play 2 balls and tell us, before he hit either one, which he wanted to count if it was allowed by Rule. So he did that, declaring he wanted the green side ball to count. Made 8 from the re-hit, made 6 (it was a par 5) from the green side ball.

 

Happened to be the 9th hole so we made a quick ride to the pro shop. Pro wasn't there so we asked them to ask him to ride out to us on 10. The Pro came out to the 10th fairway and delivered the bad news. 

 

After the round the guy and his Boston "buddy" angrily confronted ME. The 4th guy in our 4-some, silent through the entire incident, got in their faces and yelled at the 2 of them "Why are you giving HIM (me) a hard time ? If it wasn't for him you'd have been DQ'd".

 

Guess it proves "No good deed goes unpunished".

[davep043]

On 8/26/2020 at 10:55 AM, Mr. Bean said:

No wonder he is still just an assistant...

I've had head professionals give wrong answers too (via cell phone during a fourball match).  Lucky for me I had the rule book in my bag at the time, and we reached the right resolution while on the course.  And when we asked the pro about it when we got done, he agreed that he'd got it wrong.

[rogolf]

29 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I've had head professionals give wrong answers too (via cell phone during a fourball match).  Lucky for me I had the rule book in my bag at the time, and we reached the right resolution while on the course.  And when we asked the pro about it when we got done, he agreed that he'd got it wrong.

Who ever said it was the assistant or head professional's responsibility to know the Rules?  Is it part of their job requirements?  I recognize that golfers/members could expect such knowledge, but is it a requirement of the job?

[sui generis]

18 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Who ever said it was the assistant or head professional's responsibility to know the Rules?  Is it part of their job requirements?  I recognize that golfers/members could expect such knowledge, but is it a requirement of the job?

 

I'm told that Rules training is a part of the curriculum for PGA certification. The same fellow said that way more time was spent on merchandising than on Rules. ?

[Mr. Bean]

20 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Who ever said it was the assistant or head professional's responsibility to know the Rules?  Is it part of their job requirements?  I recognize that golfers/members could expect such knowledge, but is it a requirement of the job?

 

That is a fair question, but why is it so often people here and elsewhere tell they asked for guidance from a pro? If it is not the pro's responsibility to know the Rules why don't they tell it to people coming to ask for guidance on the Rules?? How come they just give their opinion without telling they have no clue but they are just guessing?

 

What I have read on this forum over the years is that the club pro seems to be the guru on the Rules as he is so often referred to by posters. There must be some misunderstanding among not only the club members but also club pro's who is the person to give a correct answer on a question on the Rules...

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

I'm told that Rules training is a part of the curriculum for PGA certification. The same fellow said that way more time was spent on merchandising than on Rules. ?

 

That is what we have over here as well. Unfortunately very few of the teaching professionals have even a mediocre knowledge of the Rules.

[davep043]

12 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Who ever said it was the assistant or head professional's responsibility to know the Rules?  Is it part of their job requirements?  I recognize that golfers/members could expect such knowledge, but is it a requirement of the job?

I'm not sure what the specific requirements for any particular professional position would be, I imagine it varies from club to club.  I'm pretty sure that a PGA of America member is required to demonstrate some proficiency with the Rules of Golf, along with a number of other skills.  I know that at most clubs the members look to the professional staff for rules guidance. 

But as @sui generis says, the Rules are just a part of their education, just as the basics of golf instruction are a part, just as running a retail clothing establishment (pro shop) is a part.  Different individuals have different interests and aptitudes.  But really, who else are we to ask, if not a golf professional?  I find it pretty disappointing when I know the rules better than our head pro, and I am MUCH less knowledgeable than many folks around here.

[sui generis]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is what we have over here as well. Unfortunately very few of the teaching professionals have even a mediocre knowledge of the Rules.

 

My club's head professional is pretty good at Rules, but I think it's because he is a skilled player and plays competitively a lot. Our assistants, who don't play competitively, aren't likely to even to be able to explain relief from a penalty area properly. ?

[Mr. Bean]

3 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I'm not sure what the specific requirements for any particular professional position would be, I imagine it varies from club to club.  I'm pretty sure that a PGA of America member is required to demonstrate some proficiency with the Rules of Golf, along with a number of other skills.  I know that at most clubs the members look to the professional staff for rules guidance. 

But as @sui generis says, the Rules are just a part of their education, just as the basics of golf instruction are a part, just as running a retail clothing establishment (pro shop) is a part.  Different individuals have different interests and aptitudes.  But really, who else are we to ask, if not a golf professional?  I find it pretty disappointing when I know the rules better than our head pro, and I am MUCH less knowledgeable than many folks around here.

 

Now that is the essence of this!! Teaching golf is their profession and Rules are an essential part of golf. It takes 100 or 1000 times more time to learn how to hit that freaking ball right not to mention how to teach others to do it even better, than learning the basic Rules 100% !! IMHO.

[sui generis]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Now that is the essence of this!! Teaching golf is their profession and Rules are an essential part of golf. It takes 100 or 1000 times more time to learn how to hit that freaking ball right not to mention how to teach others to do it even better, than learning the basic Rules 100% !! IMHO.

 

In speaking with players who complain about the Rules, I often suggest that while they spend thousands of hours practicing and thousands of dollars on equipment, yet they won't spend the few hours and no dollars to learn the Rules and save themselves a stroke here and there. ps They rarely reply, "Yeah, you're right, I'll do it."

[Mr. Bean]

41 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

In speaking with players who complain about the Rules, I often suggest that while they spend thousands of hours practicing and thousands of dollars on equipment, yet they won't spend the few hours and no dollars to learn the Rules and save themselves a stroke here and there. ps They rarely reply, "Yeah, you're right, I'll do it."

 

I am sure you are right there, but how does that relate to teaching professionals not knowing the Rules?

[Mudguard]

I've had an opponent try to get a place on a bridge over a hazard. His ball had rolled onto the bridge and came to rest in a gap between the wooden boards. Since we were playing clean and cheat through the green (grrr) he claimed that he wasn't in the hazard and was allowed to place it. 

He rang the proshop and they agreed. Again, paper rule book comes out, hazard lines go up vertically as well. Problem solved. 

[Mr. Bean]

5 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

I've had an opponent try to get a place on a bridge over a hazard. His ball had rolled onto the bridge and came to rest in a gap between the wooden boards. Since we were playing clean and cheat through the green (grrr) he claimed that he wasn't in the hazard and was allowed to place it. 

He rang the proshop and they agreed. Again, paper rule book comes out, hazard lines go up vertically as well. Problem solved. 

 

They did not want to lose a potential customer...

[Mudguard]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

They did not want to lose a potential customer...

 

Well the person they spoke to had no idea. They had a few funny local rules. There were small "carts to the paths" signs that were placed in middle of fairways, usually about 50m out. The committee decided that should a ball strike one, it was a free replay. I tried to explain that they are move-able objects and that if you were worried about it you could go up and pull it out!

[Mr. Bean]

Just now, Mudguard said:

 

Well the person they spoke to had no idea. They had a few funny local rules. There were small "carts to the paths" signs that were placed in middle of fairways, usually about 50m out. The committee decided that should a ball strike one, it was a free replay. I tried to explain that they are move-able objects and that if you were worried about it you could go up and pull it out!

 

Hilarious ??

[Mudguard]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Hilarious ??

It was painful. I was on said committee. The scorecard needed a whole space to fit the quirky, not required, local rules. I'm not going to lie, those monthly meetings were the least rewarding thing I've ever done. 

[Mr. Bean]

3 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

It was painful. I was on said committee. The scorecard needed a whole space to fit the quirky, not required, local rules. I'm not going to lie, those monthly meetings were the least rewarding thing I've ever done. 

 

So.... you were there but said nothing? Or argued but they did not believe you? Which was it?

[Mudguard]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So.... you were there but said nothing? Or argued but they did not believe you? Which was it?

 

Oh I argued against it the whole time. Over the year I had only one change made in my favour. And that was to have a second Saturday competition off the Blue Tee. And that was voted against initially, they changed their mind the following month. 

The most recent thing I've heard is one grade of club championship wants to allow members who have resigned from the club to contest if they're still involved. Both the men and womens' club champs are extremely drawn out. Six to eight weeks, and it's going to go over the end of the club membership period for the first time. 

I just shake my head. Why would you allow someone who has left the club to play a semi or a final?

[Mr. Bean]

3 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

 

Oh I argued against it the whole time. Over the year I had only one change made in my favour. And that was to have a second Saturday competition off the Blue Tee. And that was voted against initially, they changed their mind the following month. 

The most recent thing I've heard is one grade of club championship wants to allow members who have resigned from the club to contest if they're still involved. Both the men and womens' club champs are extremely drawn out. Six to eight weeks, and it's going to go over the end of the club membership period for the first time. 

I just shake my head. Why would you allow someone who has left the club to play a semi or a final?

 

Why do you stay in the committee as they have no clue and you have no authority there? Get the f out of there!!

[Mudguard]

Just now, Mr. Bean said:

 

Why do you stay in the committee as they have no clue and you have no authority there? Get the f out of there!!

I have. Even changed clubs!