Local rule for OB and Lost Ball.

[xxio]

Does the rule change (for dropping instead of stroke and distance) allow that they be separated, meaning implementing the local rule for lost balls but not for OB?

 

We want to implement the local rule for lost balls due to course conditions (typhoons have been battering us for 2 months now) but do not see the need for OB local rule.

 

I have a committee member saying we cannot implement separately because the change is always cited together. We cannot seem to find a definitive answer. 

[Halebopp]

I can't see why it couldn't be but if you have any OB margins on the course, you might run into debates about whether the ball is lost on or off the course.

[Augster]

If you use the model local rule, it must be both. 
 

If you create a derivative of the model local rule, one without the other, you may run into situations exactly as Halebopp describes. The ball may be lost on the course, or it may have just barely rolled OB, no way to be KVC either way. I suppose if you were writing your own local rule you could say a ball lost near OB is considered OB. But then how close is “near” when the ball wasn’t fully seen and can’t be found? What if the player, that obviously didn’t hit a provisional, insists he didn’t go OB and lost the ball on the course and is taking relief in the fairway. Can of worms. 
 

Seems like more trouble than it’s worth. I’d just use E5 as written. It works great. 

[xxio]

Ok. It's just a couple of our OB areas don't really speed up play if we allow drops. 

 

Doglegs that are totally blocked. If you drop in the fairway you would still have to end up playing out to 90 degrees. We encourage provisionals and have not had issues.

 

The abnormal ground conditions right now just make losing balls easy.

 

I lost 5 balls, 3 of which were in the fairway over 2 rounds this weekend. We just had the strongest typhoon in the world for 2020 pass by as well. I don't expect course conditions to get better for the next 3 weeks.

 

 

Any suggestions?

[nsxguy]

9 minutes ago, xxio said:

Ok. It's just a couple of our OB areas don't really speed up play if we allow drops. 

 

Doglegs that are totally blocked. If you drop in the fairway you would still have to end up playing out to 90 degrees. We encourage provisionals and have not had issues.

 

The abnormal ground conditions right now just make losing balls easy.

 

I lost 5 balls, 3 of which were in the fairway over 2 rounds this weekend. We just had the strongest typhoon in the world for 2020 pass by as well. I don't expect course conditions to get better for the next 3 weeks.

 

 

Any suggestions?

 

You probably know this but just to be clear, if the player hits a provisional they can no longer use Local Rule E-5 for the previous ball.

[sui generis]

5 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

You probably know this but just to be clear, if the player hits a provisional they can no longer use Local Rule E-5 for the previous ball.

 

I understand it to be if the player has a provisional ball in play, they may not use E-5. For example, if the player's provisional also goes out of bounds, E-5 may be applied to the provisional.

[Sawgrass]

37 minutes ago, xxio said:

Ok. It's just a couple of our OB areas don't really speed up play if we allow drops. 

 

Doglegs that are totally blocked. If you drop in the fairway you would still have to end up playing out to 90 degrees. We encourage provisionals and have not had issues.

 

The abnormal ground conditions right now just make losing balls easy.

 

I lost 5 balls, 3 of which were in the fairway over 2 rounds this weekend. We just had the strongest typhoon in the world for 2020 pass by as well. I don't expect course conditions to get better for the next 3 weeks.

 

 

Any suggestions?

Sometimes courses are unplayable. I’d suggest taking some time off. 

[xxio]

6 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Sometimes courses are unplayable. I’d suggest taking some time off. 

About 70% of the course is fine. Just the holes near streams and low points. The problem is the landing areas are before those streams and low points.

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, Augster said:

If you use the model local rule, it must be both. 
 

If you create a derivative of the model local rule, one without the other, you may run into situations exactly as Halebopp describes. The ball may be lost on the course, or it may have just barely rolled OB, no way to be KVC either way. I suppose if you were writing your own local rule you could say a ball lost near OB is considered OB. But then how close is “near” when the ball wasn’t fully seen and can’t be found? What if the player, that obviously didn’t hit a provisional, insists he didn’t go OB and lost the ball on the course and is taking relief in the fairway. Can of worms. 
 

Seems like more trouble than it’s worth. I’d just use E5 as written. It works great. 

Just trying to think this through, I am not sure it should be such a problem. Would this not be the same as player determine if they lost a ball in or out of a penalty area?

[nsxguy]

46 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

I understand it to be if the player has a provisional ball in play, they may not use E-5. For example, if the player's provisional also goes out of bounds, E-5 may be applied to the provisional.

 

 

Not sure I see the difference. If the player hits a provisional it's "in play", no ?

 

I did say when one hits a provisional he can no longer use E-5 for the previous ball. And that would apply for any additional provisionals as well, no ?

 

I'm missing something, again, am I not ? 

 

 

[Halebopp]

5 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

Sometimes courses are unplayable. I’d suggest taking some time off. 

 

You really don't want to do that in the autumn when any given round could be your last one for 5-6 months. 🙂

[Newby]

8 hours ago, xxio said:

Does the rule change (for dropping instead of stroke and distance) allow that they be separated, meaning implementing the local rule for lost balls but not for OB?

 

We want to implement the local rule for lost balls due to course conditions (typhoons have been battering us for 2 months now) but do not see the need for OB local rule.

 

I have a committee member saying we cannot implement separately because the change is always cited together. We cannot seem to find a definitive answer. 

The common reason for not using the LR is that many may not understand the relief procedure or will fudge it. Given that your club is happy with that aspect, I can't see any reason not to include OB

[antip]

1 hour ago, Halebopp said:

 

You really don't want to do that in the autumn when any given round could be your last one for 5-6 months. 🙂

You have my sympathies. 24 hour a day access for the high summer doesn't make up for those snow and ice-bound months.

[sui generis]

7 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Not sure I see the difference. If the player hits a provisional it's "in play", no ?

 

I did say when one hits a provisional he can no longer use E-5 for the previous ball. And that would apply for any additional provisionals as well, no ?

 

I'm missing something, again, am I not ? 

 

 

 

I often hear it said that if a player "hits a provisional, then E-5 cannot be used." That's an incomplete notion. What the Committee Procedures says is:

If a provisional ball is played and neither the original ball nor the provisional ball can be found, then the Local Rule may be applied for the provisional ball that cannot be found.

 

A provisional ball which is lost or out of bounds is not in play.

Edited November 3, 2020 by sui generis

[Halebopp]

6 minutes ago, antip said:

You have my sympathies. 24 hour a day access for the high summer doesn't make up for those snow and ice-bound months.

 

I actually like the winters but I absolutely hate the four months of November our winters are turning into due to the global warming. We didn't even officially have winter last year in my hometown because the temperatures wouldn't stay below freezing for long enough, for five consecutive days or whatever the limit is the scientist use.

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

I often hear it said that if a player "hits a provisional, then E-5 cannot be used." That's an incomplete notion. What the Committee Procedures says is:

If a provisional ball is played and neither the original ball nor the provisional ball can be found, then the Local Rule may be applied for the provisional ball that cannot be found.

 

A provisional ball which is lost or out of bounds is not in play.

 

We seem to be saying the same thing, no ?

 

Yes, your first statement IS incomplete, but I didn't "leave it" like that. I specifically mentioned the previous/original ball in my first post on this.

 

12 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

You probably know this but just to be clear, if the player hits a provisional they can no longer use Local Rule E-5 for the previous ball.

 

As for "in play", one does not know whether the provisional ball is lost and often doesn't know if it's OB. So once the provisional is struck the E-5 Local Rule is no longer permitted for the "previous" ball. It doesn't matter whether or not the provisional OR the original is "in play". Not so ?

 

So as I originally stated, when one hits a provisional E-5 is no longer permissible for the previous ball. 

[Mr. Bean]

11 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

I often hear it said that if a player "hits a provisional, then E-5 cannot be used." That's an incomplete notion. What the Committee Procedures says is:

If a provisional ball is played and neither the original ball nor the provisional ball can be found, then the Local Rule may be applied for the provisional ball that cannot be found.

 

A provisional ball which is lost or out of bounds is not in play.

 

I fail to see the significance of a provisional ball to be in play or not. Once you play a provisional you lose the option of using E-5 for the original. I believe that is what nsxguy is trying to explain.

[sui generis]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I fail to see the significance of a provisional ball to be in play or not. Once you play a provisional you lose the option of using E-5 for the original. I believe that is what nsxguy is trying to explain.

 

Let's try it this way. MLR E-5 is in effect at this course.

 

Player plays a ball which might be lost outside a penalty area.

 

Player then properly plays a provisional ball.

 

Player goes forward and finds neither the original ball nor the provisional ball.

 

Do you suggest that the player may not use E-5 for the provisional ball?

[Mr. Bean]

18 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Let's try it this way. MLR E-5 is in effect at this course.

 

Player plays a ball which might be lost outside a penalty area.

 

Player then properly plays a provisional ball.

 

Player goes forward and finds neither the original ball nor the provisional ball.

 

Do you suggest that the player may not use E-5 for the provisional ball?

 

No. Where did you get that idea? I specifically wrote 'Once you play a provisional you lose the option of using E-5 for the original.'

[nsxguy]

12 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Let's try it this way. MLR E-5 is in effect at this course.

 

Player plays a ball which might be lost outside a penalty area.

 

Player then properly plays a provisional ball.

 

Player goes forward and finds neither the original ball nor the provisional ball.

 

Do you suggest that the player may not use E-5 for the provisional ball?

No. As you well know the player CAN use E-5 for the provisional.

 

OK, so you like rearranging things. Fine.

 

 

 

Let's try it this way. MLR E-5 is in effect at this course.

Player plays a ball which might be lost outside a penalty area.

Player then properly plays a provisional ball.

Player goes forward and finds neither the original ball nor the provisional ball.

 

FULL STOP.

 

As I said the player loses the E-5 option for the PREVIOUS (in this case original) ball.

 

As I suggested, since no (other) provisional was hit AFTER the provisional ball, option E-5 IS permitted for the provisional.

 

How's that ? Better ?

[sui generis]

If I've offended anyone, I'm sorry.

 

I often hear the statement that if a player has played a provisional ball then E-5 is not available. This as it stands is untrue.

 

What is true is to say that if a player has a provisional ball in play they may not use E-5.  (In play is a defined term and a clear understanding of the Definition is crucial.)

[nitram]

Why not take a drop where it crossed into OB and now you're hitting 4? 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

If I've offended anyone, I'm sorry.

 

I often hear the statement that if a player has played a provisional ball then E-5 is not available. This as it stands is untrue.

 

What is true is to say that if a player has a provisional ball in play they may not use E-5.  (In play is a defined term and a clear understanding of the Definition is crucial.)

 

Yes, as that statement stands it's untrue.

 

Speaking only for myself of course, you surely didn't offend me. I'm just not sure how it got quite so,,,,,,, ummmmm,,,,,,,,, complicated. 

[nsxguy]

25 minutes ago, nitram said:

Why not take a drop where it crossed into OB and now you're hitting 4? 

 

That IS an option if LR E-5 is in effect but most likely one would take it to the FAIRWAY (if there is one), not just drop where it went OB.

 

And of course that (hitting 4) is assuming the ball that went OB was your tee ball. 

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, sui generis said:

If I've offended anyone, I'm sorry.

 

I often hear the statement that if a player has played a provisional ball then E-5 is not available. This as it stands is untrue.

 

What is true is to say that if a player has a provisional ball in play they may not use E-5.  (In play is a defined term and a clear understanding of the Definition is crucial.)

 

Finally we are there 🥳

[Colin L]

What a remarkable discussion where people manage to get into opposition with each other by saying the same thing in different ways. 😃

[rogolf]

12 minutes ago, Colin L said:

What a remarkable discussion where people manage to get into opposition with each other by saying the same thing in different ways. 😃

And what a wonderful thing that active listening and understanding is, particularly when used before raising objections! 

[Mr. Bean]

On 11/4/2020 at 7:14 PM, Colin L said:

What a remarkable discussion where people manage to get into opposition with each other by saying the same thing in different ways. 😃

 

I guess you should have stepped in earlier and straighten it out to the one who had problems in understanding what the other two were saying.

[sui generis]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I guess you should have stepped in earlier and straighten it out to the one who had problems in understanding what the other two were saying.

 

Now you know how to answer the question in one short  sentence instead of paragraphs of obfuscation. 😉

[Mr. Bean]

21 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

Now you know how to answer the question in one short  sentence instead of paragraphs of obfuscation. 😉

 

You mean the question you created when there was nothing worth asking..?