Putter Shape and its Effects on Aim Bias

[GBGolfingtons]

Curious what impact a high toe design would have on alignment?

[philsRHman]

So a very interesting thing happened. I set up a laser and started working through my putters…

Odyssey 7 (big pull)

odyssey 7 stroke lab (big pull)

Scotty 5.5 (massive pull)

Ping Anser line in flange (moderate pull)

 

I was totally giving up. Then… 

 

Seemore blade

 

 

 

Boom!

 

 

I’ve never really gotten on with this putter but I think it has more to do with this massive superstroke grip. It was shocking how over and over the laser was right on the hole and often right on the stick. I had similar success with an old bullseye. A little less success with the 8802 I grew up playing (pull edge, but miles better than the other misses).
 

So what do I learn from this? The characteristics that can (maybe?) affect aim are: center shaft, no offset, blade shape, small alignment on crown, dark color. 

i think I have realized my eyes prefer a perpendicular alignment. In other words, I’ve always found it more helpful to use the logo on the ball running away from me trying to hit that square than the alignment stripe so many use (which always looks like a massive push to me once over the ball).

 

I finally feel like I’m onto something!

[GBGolfingtons]

8 minutes ago, philsRHman said:

So a very interesting thing happened. I set up a laser and started working through my putters…

Odyssey 7 (big pull)

odyssey 7 stroke lab (big pull)

Scotty 5.5 (massive pull)

Ping Anser line in flange (moderate pull)

 

I was totally giving up. Then… 

 

Seemore blade

 

 

 

Boom!

 

 

I’ve never really gotten on with this putter but I think it has more to do with this massive superstroke grip. It was shocking how over and over the laser was right on the hole and often right on the stick. I had similar success with an old bullseye. A little less success with the 8802 I grew up playing (pull edge, but miles better than the other misses).
 

So what do I learn from this? The characteristics that can (maybe?) affect aim are: center shaft, no offset, blade shape, small alignment on crown, dark color. 

i think I have realized my eyes prefer a perpendicular alignment. In other words, I’ve always found it more helpful to use the logo on the ball running away from me trying to hit that square than the alignment stripe so many use (which always looks like a massive push to me once over the ball).

 

I finally feel like I’m onto something!

This is awesome. Boom indeed!

 

I don’t think that aiming pattern is particularly uncommon - seeing a lot of the putter face at address being easiest to aim. And anything with a hosel being left aiming 

[GBGolfingtons]

13 minutes ago, philsRHman said:

So a very interesting thing happened. I set up a laser and started working through my putters…

Odyssey 7 (big pull)

odyssey 7 stroke lab (big pull)

Scotty 5.5 (massive pull)

Ping Anser line in flange (moderate pull)

 

I was totally giving up. Then… 

 

Seemore blade

 

 

 

Boom!

 

 

I’ve never really gotten on with this putter but I think it has more to do with this massive superstroke grip. It was shocking how over and over the laser was right on the hole and often right on the stick. I had similar success with an old bullseye. A little less success with the 8802 I grew up playing (pull edge, but miles better than the other misses).
 

So what do I learn from this? The characteristics that can (maybe?) affect aim are: center shaft, no offset, blade shape, small alignment on crown, dark color. 

i think I have realized my eyes prefer a perpendicular alignment. In other words, I’ve always found it more helpful to use the logo on the ball running away from me trying to hit that square than the alignment stripe so many use (which always looks like a massive push to me once over the ball).

 

I finally feel like I’m onto something!

Was thinking myself of looking to pick up a tad more style putter with very limited offset - can get like 1/4 shaft. 
 

feels like it could be a good fit for the aiming pattern 

[philsRHman]

7 minutes ago, GBGolfingtons said:

This is awesome. Boom indeed!

 

I don’t think that aiming pattern is particularly uncommon - seeing a lot of the putter face at address being easiest to aim. And anything with a hosel being left aiming 

What’s funny is I’d read that with left eye dominant and LH putting (rear eye dominant) that MORE offset should help.  It’s stunning that even once I knew I was aiming 12” to the hook side with the others, I could NOT convince myself it wasn’t dead on line while over the ball. 

[N2N2]

On 2/11/2022 at 11:43 AM, GBGolfingtons said:

my typical miss is right too (other than an incredibly weak breakdown of everything that misses left)

 

rolled it on the practice green today. Felt great with it. 
 

it’s an interesting and easy to do. I’d recommend 

Where did you purchase the small mirror for the putter?  Thank you.

[GBGolfingtons]

3 minutes ago, N2N2 said:

Where did you purchase the small mirror for the putter?  Thank you.

Just off Amazon. Was something like a flexible self adhesive mirror 

 

 

[philsRHman]

14 minutes ago, GBGolfingtons said:

Just off Amazon. Was something like a flexible self adhesive mirror 

 

 

I'm torn on the better setup. The one I got on Amazon (pictured above) allow for actual putting. But it's also a factor in alignment since you can see it. It's also cumbersome and a pain in the neck (I found tape easier than rubber bands, but either way, the self stick on the laser itself is useless) to move from putter to putter. Not sure if a self-stick mirror would be easier, because you also have to have the laser set up perfectly, right? Here I can move around quite a bit so I don't start to align based on the edge of the putting mat, etc. 

[GBGolfingtons]

2 minutes ago, philsRHman said:

I'm torn on the better setup. The one I got on Amazon (pictured above) allow for actual putting. But it's also a factor in alignment since you can see it. It's also cumbersome and a pain in the neck (I found tape easier than rubber bands, but either way, the self stick on the laser itself is useless) to move from putter to putter. Not sure if a self-stick mirror would be easier, because you also have to have the laser set up perfectly, right? Here I can move around quite a bit so I don't start to align based on the edge of the putting mat, etc. 

I have the laser attached to my target, firing back into the ball. The I just have the ball moved and it reflects back off the mirror on the putter. 
 

but yeah, just shows me the static position rather than the ‘real alignment ‘ just at the start of the stroke 

[Rapidcat]

I've done the same laser set-up as @GBGolfingtons, Edel etc to do my putter analysis (I'm RH, Right eye dominant and static aim is way right usually), which I am only partly through.

 

I fiddled about with stick on mirrors etc and it was a real pita so instead I use silver reflective button/disc magnets that I just adhere to the face of the putters I am testing - simple and easy enough to place and remove:

Works for me, at least with the few putters I am testing for aim bias.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Rapidcat

[GBGolfingtons]

35 minutes ago, Rapidcat said:

I've done the same laser set-up as @GBGolfingtons, Edel etc to do my putter analysis (I'm RH, Right eye dominant and static aim is way right usually), which I am only partly through.

 

I fiddled about with stick on mirrors etc and it was a real pita so instead I use silver reflective button/disc magnets that I just adhere to the face of the putters I am testing - simple and easy enough to place and remove:

Works for me, at least with the few putters I am testing for aim bias.

What’s your current set up (which leads to the right aim bias)?

[GBGolfingtons]

Current gamer I mean 

[Rapidcat]

32 minutes ago, GBGolfingtons said:

What’s your current set up (which leads to the right aim bias)?

The putter in my sig. I've learnt that whilst I love the look and feel of a large mallet with a double bend shaft and fatish grip, it aligns me right...of course it has all the align right design elements so I now understand why.

 

I also have 2 other Wilson Infinites (they are nice enough cheap putters to buy for this experimentation), a Bucktown fang style that also aligns me right and a Windy City Anser-style blade that is the best aligner for me.

 

Still more work to do but it looks like a blade style with plumber's neck hosel and no counter-balance large grip (so narrower, lighter grip) will be better for my alignment and stroke. If I could make a double-wide blade work for me that would be great.

 

Early days but fun to work this stuff out, then I will buy the gamer that I really need.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Rapidcat

[TimBuma]

2 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

The putter in my sig. I've learnt that whilst I love the look and feel of a large mallet with a double bend shaft and fatish grip, it aligns me right...of course it has all the align right design elements so I now understand why.

 

I also have 2 other Wilson Infinites (they are nice enough cheap putters to buy for this experimentation), a Bucktown fang style that also aligns me right and a Windy City Anser-style blade that is the best aligner for me.

 

Still more work to do but it looks like a blade style with plumber's neck hosel and no counter-balance large grip (so narrower, lighter grip) will be better for my alignment and stroke. If I could make a double-wide blade work for me that would be great.

 

Early days but fun to work this stuff out, then I will buy the gamer that I really need.

We sound like we have similar tendencies (RH and right eye dominant). I always would go towards a mallet for “forgiveness” but never seemed to be able to align then correctly. Through testing seem like a blade style with plumbers neck actually works best for me. Curious to try the tri hot 5k and see if that adds a little more stability. 

[Rapidcat]

16 hours ago, littletimbo182 said:

We sound like we have similar tendencies (RH and right eye dominant). I always would go towards a mallet for “forgiveness” but never seemed to be able to align then correctly. Through testing seem like a blade style with plumbers neck actually works best for me. Curious to try the tri hot 5k and see if that adds a little more stability. 

Yes, looks like we have the same basic characteristics. Apparently 67% of the population are right handed/right eye dominant. Like the look of the tri hot 5k!

 

I've just pulled out an old putter from the 80's that I used back then (in my 20's) and am starting to test that, a Diawa Probalance 5502:

I regripped it with a thin pistol grip and seem to be aligning it better and holing heaps with my hands releasing a touch better due to the thinner grip and maybe shape. Will do my laser testing and see what I find. This putter has c.30 deg toe hang.

 

Really enjoying this exercise. Will be interesting to reach a conclusion and then test it out on a SAM lab type set-up.

[SnowmanShanks]

On 2/15/2022 at 9:53 AM, philsRHman said:

What’s funny is I’d read that with left eye dominant and LH putting (rear eye dominant) that MORE offset should help.  It’s stunning that even once I knew I was aiming 12” to the hook side with the others, I could NOT convince myself it wasn’t dead on line while over the ball. 

it can help! but just remember alignment is very important, but so is how you strike the ball, consistency, roll and launch.

 

[SnowmanShanks]

GUYS!!!! i am so sorry but since creating this topic i am FLOODED with DMs. I am trying to answer everyone as quickly as i can!!!!

[SUITS]

This thread was possibly the best thing I’ve read on this forum. 
 

Were there any conclusions about ball position for Lead eye or trail eye dominant players? 

[J13]

Great thread @SnowmanShanks .  You bring up a lot of great info and points!  With that said people should keep in mind there is no way for anyone (unless they are fitting you) to tell you how you will aim a certain shape.  Edel has done EXTENSIVE testing on optics, shapes, ect...  including working with those in the medical world.  There are tendencies but there is no one size fits all solution.  Hosel, alignment lines, weight, shape, lie angle all play into how a play perceives aim and speed control.  My advice to everyone interested is get a fitting and in 60 minutes you will learn all you need to know about your eyes and not waste weeks and months trying to figure it out on your own.  Basically don't keep guessing like I did for years, save yourself a lot of time and money.  

 

 

[SnowmanShanks]

6 hours ago, SUITS said:

This thread was possibly the best thing I’ve read on this forum. 
 

Were there any conclusions about ball position for Lead eye or trail eye dominant players? 

I think the putter shape and dynamic stroke will have too many variable to isolate on lead vs secondary eye.

 

I personally experience more spin and more pull side when I move ball forward.

Trail eye is dominate eye.

[SnowmanShanks]

5 hours ago, J13 said:

Great thread @SnowmanShanks .  You bring up a lot of great info and points!  With that said people should keep in mind there is no way for anyone (unless they are fitting you) to tell you how you will aim a certain shape.  Edel has done EXTENSIVE testing on optics, shapes, ect...  including working with those in the medical world.  There are tendencies but there is no one size fits all solution.  Hosel, alignment lines, weight, shape, lie angle all play into how a play perceives aim and speed control.  My advice to everyone interested is get a fitting and in 60 minutes you will learn all you need to know about your eyes and not waste weeks and months trying to figure it out on your own.  Basically don't keep guessing like I did for years, save yourself a lot of time and money.  

 

 

60 putters later for me!

[nsxguy]

On 8/18/2022 at 5:15 PM, SnowmanShanks said:

60 putters later for me!

 

Nice to see you back. I thought you "drowned" in all those DMs,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 🙃

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by nsxguy

[TimBuma]

I’m curious what people think about putter faces. I always struggle with getting the ball to the hole. Easy fix is adjusting loft and just swinging harder. But has anyone noticed better faces for this, milled vs insert?

[SnowmanShanks]

7 minutes ago, littletimbo182 said:

I’m curious what people think about putter faces. I always struggle with getting the ball to the hole. Easy fix is adjusting loft and just swinging harder. But has anyone noticed better faces for this, milled vs insert?

If short the case is usually not enough loft.

Skidding from excess loft is not desirable, however will not affect distance adversely.

 

Grooves help ball to not slide on the face.

Lower MOI or effectively closer CG to putter face will decrease launch and have a positive effect on fwd roll.

This is why most mallets have grooves.

Farther CG and Higher MOI launched ball farther and with more backspin. Grooves counter that.

Then you have putter flex and loft deflection.

 

While most of these variables are miniscule... a majority of the problems and solutions can be found within your stroke, consistency, and right fit.

 

For further research I would suggest that a mallet vs a blade has no statistical significance if both clubs are fit properly.

 

The personal way a putter lines up for a golfer making his dynamic stroke and his static aim has a much more profound effect on hitting the hole from 8 feet.

 

I'm have spent so many hours inside this topic over the past 5 years.... 

It usually goes one of 4 ways

 

Looks great. Can't hole it

Looks bad. Can't hole it

Looks great. Holes it.

Looks bad. Holes it

 

Usually the Looks great or bad is mallet vs blade.

Some people need a massive line.

Some people add dynamic loft with lines.

Some people get distracted and hook putts in tight with a sight line.

 

The point here with this thread is to self diagnose as much a possible to at least narrow down some options that both look good and roll well.

And avoid 3 Jacks

 

Best,

[SnowmanShanks]

17 minutes ago, littletimbo182 said:

I’m curious what people think about putter faces. I always struggle with getting the ball to the hole. Easy fix is adjusting loft and just swinging harder. But has anyone noticed better faces for this, milled vs insert?

I would say the amount of energy transmitted during a swing = a directly proportionate distance. The only reason distance would change is due to strike pattern or poor launch conditions.

 

If you need help or you don't know, grooves usually help

[TimBuma]

This is easily the most beneficial topic on golfwrx! I’ve been some self fitting over the last couple years as well as an Edel fitting and been on SAM putt lab. As a right eye dominant and right handed golfer I aim a blade style or anything with parallel lines much better than a mallet and/or anything with a rounded back. My miss has always been a push on short putts. With the SAM putt lab I’m always put into less loft, usually it tells me around 1 degree of loft. I know I stroke flaws and that’s the reason it tells me to play less loft.

[JAMH03]

@SnowmanShanks thanks for all of this hard work.

Some random questions.

Are you familiar with the decade golf approach for full shots? If so what do you think?

Do you have any insights into possibly the easiest way to improve strokes gained putting via fit and or alignment?

Does your research make you want to design your own putter to incorporate the elements that you feel help you the most?



 

[SnowmanShanks]

7 minutes ago, JAMH03 said:

@SnowmanShanks thanks for all of this hard work.

Some random questions.

Are you familiar with the decade golf approach for full shots? If so what do you think?

Do you have any insights into possibly the easiest way to improve strokes gained putting via fit and or alignment?

Does your research make you want to design your own putter to incorporate the elements that you feel help you the most?



 

I have seen and read about decade golf.

I would like to explore it further. Although I think it removes some passion and emotion. Sometimes you just have to go for a flag! But...

when you're as great a putter as I have become (28.4 Putts per round on 12+ stimp) sometimes a calculation might give me a slight edge.

 

I have quite a few ideas on putter design that I am withholding. 

Some I've reached out to major manufacturers regarding design, hosel design, and other ideas.

 

I think the link between hosel and putter represents a linear opportunity for alignment. I have a design prototype currently as well.

 

I also think the ideas I'm proposing might stop people from buying more putters.

Which the manufacturer might not love.

 

To this day I do not understand why a fitting putter or an adjustable putter hasn't been created that one may use playing.

 

It seems like low hanging fruit. 

 

I just don't want to be labeled as a square strike type of vibe or product.

 

 

[SnowmanShanks]

18 minutes ago, JAMH03 said:

@SnowmanShanks 
Do you have any insights into possibly the easiest way to improve strokes gained putting via fit and or alignment?





 

 

Unfortunately tendencies over time and trial and error at the moment.

There is not a putter that exists that you can change lie angle on the fly or loft or shape or lines.

Edel has something for fitting only.

Ping has something for fitting only.

 

[TimBuma]

Do you have any experience with the LAB putters?