Putter Shape and its Effects on Aim Bias

[RedWings1]

@SnowmanShanks
What do you mean by?: "a symmetrical short depth putter with a topline or dot would be your best bet".

Great analysis and thread here, thanks for all the research!

Edited October 3, 2022 by RedWings1

[J13]

On 9/11/2022 at 1:26 AM, SnowmanShanks said:

 

Unfortunately tendencies over time and trial and error at the moment.

There is not a putter that exists that you can change lie angle on the fly or loft or shape or lines.

Edel has something for fitting only.

Ping has something for fitting only.

 

 

You can change alignment lines on the fly with Edel putters.  You can order as many alignment plates in all sorts of configurations and change on a whim.  

[GBGolfingtons]

Presumably shaft lean at address has quite an impact on aim patterns?

 

So I could just push my hands forward to combat a hook side aim pattern?

 

thanks

[nsxguy]

On 9/11/2022 at 1:26 AM, SnowmanShanks said:

 

Unfortunately tendencies over time and trial and error at the moment.

There is not a putter that exists that you can change lie angle on the fly or loft or shape or lines.

Edel has something for fitting only.

Ping has something for fitting only.

 

 

Not exactly true.

 

Older version of the "Cure" putter can be easily and quickly adjusted for lie angle.

 

Makes me wonder though, why putter makers haven't done this. With all the experience gleaned over many years now via driver loft and lie technology one has to wonder why putter manufacturers haven't adopted both adjustments.

 

The force generated by woods is much greater than with the putter. One would think the adjustment could be secure/tight enough to have zero(?) effect during a putting stroke, no ?

[SnowmanShanks]

On 9/29/2022 at 3:13 PM, nsxguy said:

 

Not exactly true.

 

Older version of the "Cure" putter can be easily and quickly adjusted for lie angle.

 

Makes me wonder though, why putter makers haven't done this. With all the experience gleaned over many years now via driver loft and lie technology one has to wonder why putter manufacturers haven't adopted both adjustments.

 

The force generated by woods is much greater than with the putter. One would think the adjustment could be secure/tight enough to have zero(?) effect during a putting stroke, no ?

Then what would they sell us after we bought the infinite putter.

 

 

[nsxguy]

21 minutes ago, SnowmanShanks said:

Then what would they sell us after we bought the infinite putter.

 

 

Planned obsolescence ?

 

Not necessary with golfers and putters.

 

Not infinite as it (Cure) wasn't adjustable for loft.

 

But wait. What ? Isn't your whole thread about shapes and aiming ?

 

Not to mention size, feel, balance, forgiveness, etc., etc., etc...................

 

But as for them selling us totally adjustable putter, nothing has stopped us from buying totally adjustable drivers.

[Soloman1]

The putter landscape is littered with the dead carcasses of companies going through all the design, build and marketing of adjustable putters that people didn’t buy.

[SnowmanShanks]

What I find interesting is the change in shape ONLY.

(Meaning weight, swing weight. Length. Loft, lie, hosel location, etc all being the EXACT same)

 

Changes how the golfer delivers the putter dynamically.

 

[Hosel Rockets69]

Thanks Snowman this is great. Do you have any experience with round mallets that are asymmetrical? Like a Queen B11, where the back is less round on the heel side. Wondering if this causes aim bias compared to a perfectly round back like an Edel eas 5.0. I recently did an Edel fitting (I’m just now learning about all of these intricacies) and got fit to the 5.0, but I don’t think I want an Edel. Feels like it lacks forgiveness and I’m not sold on torque balance, so looking at other options. 

[J13]

18 hours ago, Hosel Rockets69 said:

Thanks Snowman this is great. Do you have any experience with round mallets that are asymmetrical? Like a Queen B11, where the back is less round on the heel side. Wondering if this causes aim bias compared to a perfectly round back like an Edel eas 5.0. I recently did an Edel fitting (I’m just now learning about all of these intricacies) and got fit to the 5.0, but I don’t think I want an Edel. Feels like it lacks forgiveness and I’m not sold on torque balance, so looking at other options. 

 

-EAS 5.0 will have a higher MOI than Queen B11.  With that said MOI is not the major issue companies make it out to be, in fact it's not even in the top 5 of putting problems for 99% of players.  Torque Balance is almost a universal fit as it balances the same way it moves through the path.  The people that struggle (this was me) got used to using hands a lot in the stroke which is a band aid developed over years of using an incorrect putter.  By putting in some practice, my EAS 4.0 actually trained me to take hands out of the stroke and my putting has literally NEVER been better.  

 

-Whether you stick to the 5.0 or try something else is obviously up to you but don't get fooled by marketing MOI stuff.  It has little to no effect on how you putt unless you are a beginner or a complete disaster on the greens.  

 

-AIM Bias - No one on this board can tell you where you will aim a certain shape.  Everyone views shapes and lines differently and its completely unpredictable until you check it.  If you got fit for an Edel and the 5.0 gets your aim inside the hole then putters that shift your aim forward will be better options for you.

 

Hope that helps and good luck on your journey! 

[J13]

On 10/6/2022 at 9:42 AM, SnowmanShanks said:

What I find interesting is the change in shape ONLY.

(Meaning weight, swing weight. Length. Loft, lie, hosel location, etc all being the EXACT same)

 

Changes how the golfer delivers the putter dynamically.

 

 

Shape changes aim bias which can change path and even loft at address.  Hosel also plays a major role in this.

[SnowmanShanks]

1 minute ago, J13 said:

 

-EAS 5.0 will have a higher MOI than Queen B11.  With that said MOI is not the major issue companies make it out to be, in fact it's not even in the top 5 of putting problems for 99% of players.  Torque Balance is almost a universal fit as it balances the same way it moves through the path.  The people that struggle (this was me) got used to using hands a lot in the stroke which is a band aid developed over years of using an incorrect putter.  By putting in some practice, my EAS 4.0 actually trained me to take hands out of the stroke and my putting has literally NEVER been better.  

 

-Whether you stick to the 5.0 or try something else is obviously up to you but don't get fooled by marketing MOI stuff.  It has little to no effect on how you putt unless you are a beginner or a complete disaster on the greens.  

 

-AIM Bias - No one on this board can tell you where you will aim a certain shape.  Everyone views shapes and lines differently and its completely unpredictable until you check it.  If you got fit for an Edel and the 5.0 gets your aim inside the hole then putters that shift your aim forward will be better options for you.

 

Hope that helps and good luck on your journey! 

Sorry! I have to disagree!...

There is no such thing as a universal fit!

 

 

[SnowmanShanks]

Just now, J13 said:

 

Shape changes aim bias which can change path and even loft at address.  Hosel also plays a major role in this.

I think you should read the thread!!!

[J13]

19 minutes ago, SnowmanShanks said:

Sorry! I have to disagree!...

There is no such thing as a universal fit!

 

 

 

I said almost

 

18 minutes ago, SnowmanShanks said:

I think you should read the thread!!!

Oh I have and there is some good information but also some not so great information. You are going down the rabbit hole and I applaud you for it but I work for a company that has done this for almost 2 decades.  Again I've enjoyed the thread and anything that can raise awareness on putter fitting is ok in my book.  

Edited October 24, 2022 by J13

[SnowmanShanks]

9 minutes ago, J13 said:

 

I said almost

 

Oh I have and there is some good information but also some not so great information. You are going down the rabbit hole and I applaud you for it but I work for a company that has done this for almost 2 decades.  Again I've enjoyed the thread and anything that can raise awareness on putter fitting is ok in my book.  

I am pleased it has recieved your approval. Thank you very kindly.

[J13]

5 hours ago, SnowmanShanks said:

I am pleased it has recieved your approval. Thank you very kindly.

 

You certainly don't need my approval and not how i meant it so my apologies if I came across the wrong way.  I find players I work with as well as WRX'ers focusing on the wrong things with regards to putter fitting.  They are being distracted with face angles and MOI instead of what really makes someone a better putter.  Reading greens is #1, #2 is speed control, #3 is aim.  Sasho Mackenzie has done a tremendous amount of research on this.  Fixing aim for a player is unique to them and important but it pales in comparison to a player having a properly built putter for their stroke type and tempo with regards to weight.  

 

As for aim - I've seen a lot of players in the thread say they are right or left bias.  I've rarely come across a player in fittings that is truly bias in one direction, it all comes down how their brain perceives shapes and lines and where these things push their focus.  We've worked with neurologist and ophthalmologist to try to understand it and even they can't tell us exactly what's going on.  It's fascinating stuff.

 

 

[iceman1118]

@SnowmanShanks were you ever able to do any testing with the torque free putters? LAB, Edel, Axis1, etc

[Orange Hog]

On 12/20/2020 at 8:03 PM, SnowmanShanks said:

 

 

The greater the amount of offset, the greater tendency to aim to the hook side.

 

A flat rear will cause you to unknowingly aim your putter towards the hook side.  A more rounded putter will cause you to aim towards the slice side.

 

Also in my findings I found it difficult for mallet putters to consistently aim to the hook side (static aim only). 

 

Topline = decreases distance front to rear. (more hook side aim bias)

Flangeline = increases distance to rear. (more slice side aim bias)

 

Also a longer line(s) on your putter will cause you to further aim bias on the slice side.

 

Railway types of lines also contributed further to aiming on the slice side.

 

 

Just finding this thread.  All of the highlighted comments above are completely contrary to what I've been through in several putter fittings.

 

A couple years ago I went through a thorough Edel fitting.  My putter going in was a TM Spider.  Pretty standard set up.  35", double bend shaft, 1/2 shaft offset.  Immediately we found that the head shape and alignment lines were pushing my aim WAY to the left so we went to the blade shape in the Edel.  Long story short, the "naked" blade with only a single dot on the topline resulted it perfect alignment to target.

 

Not trying to fire up a big argument here but just interesting that the OP's findings go completely against what a company like Edel bases their fittings against.

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Orange Hog said:

 

Just finding this thread.  All of the highlighted comments above are completely contrary to what I've been through in several putter fittings.

 

A couple years ago I went through a thorough Edel fitting.  My putter going in was a TM Spider.  Pretty standard set up.  35", double bend shaft, 1/2 shaft offset.  Immediately we found that the head shape and alignment lines were pushing my aim WAY to the left so we went to the blade shape in the Edel.  Long story short, the "naked" blade with only a single dot on the topline resulted it perfect alignment to target.

 

Not trying to fire up a big argument here but just interesting that the OP's findings go completely against what a company like Edel bases their fittings against.

 

Couple of observations.

 

First you say you went through several fittings, then go on to tell us about a single Edel fitting. So you're being fit by a company looking to sell you something.

 

That aside, one must remember that the OP is describing tendencies. None of his findings are (I don't think) meant to be absolute.

 

I also seem to recall "dominant eye" being a factor. Not to mention how many different individuals fo many different things.

 

Personally, I've recommended the reading of this thread because it's "interesting" and there's far more research done here than most of us care to do.

 

But your experience is as valuable as the next guy's.

 

Myself, after 20 some years of putting almost exclusively with mallets big and small, I've recently found that I aim blade type putters better. But mallets are more forgiving. Net-net, toss up ?

 

Do you have a link to the Edel research on the subject ? Is it on their site ? Or is this just what you were told at your fitting ?

 

 

[Orange Hog]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Couple of observations.

 

First you say you went through several fittings, then go on to tell us about a single Edel fitting. So you're being fit by a company looking to sell you something.

 

That aside, one must remember that the OP is describing tendencies. None of his findings are (I don't think) meant to be absolute.

 

I also seem to recall "dominant eye" being a factor. Not to mention how many different individuals fo many different things.

 

Personally, I've recommended the reading of this thread because it's "interesting" and there's far more research done here than most of us care to do.

 

But your experience is as valuable as the next guy's.

 

Myself, after 20 some years of putting almost exclusively with mallets big and small, I've recently found that I aim blade type putters better. But mallets are more forgiving. Net-net, toss up ?

 

Do you have a link to the Edel research on the subject ? Is it on their site ? Or is this just what you were told at your fitting ?

 

 

 

I should have elaborated.  I have been through different putter fittings before but the Edel fitting was easily the most thorough, which is why I wanted to highlight it.  That said, even in other fittings where we simply used launch monitor technology the end result was still generally consistent - my ideal head shape is a blade-style putter.  The Edel fitting took that like 10 steps further, though.

 

All that said, it wasn't done by a dedicated Edel sales guy but rather a certified fitter who is also a shop owner and instructor.  He could have easily sold me different brands but he really believed in the Edel process, so that's why I went that direction (trying to keep an open mind).  He was awesome and never once pressured me to buy a single thing.  In fact, once he got me set up with my ideal putter set up he said "I don't want to even put in this order until you've rolled this for a while" and he turned me loose in his putting studio to try it from different lengths.

 

Here's the link to Edel's "Education" section on their site, which includes several videos explaining their fitting processes:  https://edelgolf.com/pages/education

 

Again, my intent here wasn't to call BS on the OP's analysis.  I simply found it interesting that several of his findings were contrary to what a company like Edel reference in their thorough fitting roadmap.

[SnowmanShanks]

4 minutes ago, Orange Hog said:

 

I should have elaborated.  I have been through different putter fittings before but the Edel fitting was easily the most thorough, which is why I wanted to highlight it.  That said, even in other fittings where we simply used launch monitor technology the end result was still generally consistent - my ideal head shape is a blade-style putter.  The Edel fitting took that like 10 steps further, though.

 

All that said, it wasn't done by a dedicated Edel sales guy but rather a certified fitter who is also a shop owner and instructor.  He could have easily sold me different brands but he really believed in the Edel process, so that's why I went that direction (trying to keep an open mind).  He was awesome and never once pressured me to buy a single thing.  In fact, once he got me set up with my ideal putter set up he said "I don't want to even put in this order until you've rolled this for a while" and he turned me loose in his putting studio to try it from different lengths.

 

Here's the link to Edel's "Education" section on their site, which includes several videos explaining their fitting processes:  https://edelgolf.com/pages/education

 

Again, my intent here wasn't to call BS on the OP's analysis.  I simply found it interesting that several of his findings were contrary to what a company like Edel reference in their thorough fitting roadmap.

I have done the edel fitting process. 

Everyone is different!

 

I fit someone today out of a spider into a flow neck soto. The results were night and day. 

 

 

[J13]

On 11/16/2022 at 5:36 PM, Orange Hog said:

 

I should have elaborated.  I have been through different putter fittings before but the Edel fitting was easily the most thorough, which is why I wanted to highlight it.  That said, even in other fittings where we simply used launch monitor technology the end result was still generally consistent - my ideal head shape is a blade-style putter.  The Edel fitting took that like 10 steps further, though.

 

All that said, it wasn't done by a dedicated Edel sales guy but rather a certified fitter who is also a shop owner and instructor.  He could have easily sold me different brands but he really believed in the Edel process, so that's why I went that direction (trying to keep an open mind).  He was awesome and never once pressured me to buy a single thing.  In fact, once he got me set up with my ideal putter set up he said "I don't want to even put in this order until you've rolled this for a while" and he turned me loose in his putting studio to try it from different lengths.

 

Here's the link to Edel's "Education" section on their site, which includes several videos explaining their fitting processes:  https://edelgolf.com/pages/education

 

Again, my intent here wasn't to call BS on the OP's analysis.  I simply found it interesting that several of his findings were contrary to what a company like Edel reference in their thorough fitting roadmap.

 

David (Edel) early on found that blades tend to push aim left and mallets to the right.  After continued research we've found (I work for Edel) it's like a 60/40 split see things that way.  We've discussed this with both optometrists and neurologist to figure out what goes on in the brain and optic nerves but didn't get any clear answers. Also we've tested the eye dominance theory with about 100 players and didn't find any correlation.  Best thing to do is get fit and understand how your eyes perceive shapes and lines.  I've taken numerous people through the fitting process and simply moved 1 line from top to bottom and watched it push players aim 3-4" while other players had no effect on aim.  It's pretty wild.

 

On a side note, aim is extremely important but speed is king next to green reading and the speed control portion of Edel's fitting system is by far my favorite.

 

Overall as SnowmanShank said everyone is different.  Get fit and find out 

[GBGolfingtons]

Is it a fair assumption that all testing is done on straight putts? And perhaps there are some interesting finding for breaking putts?

[SnowmanShanks]

On 11/22/2022 at 3:51 AM, GBGolfingtons said:

Is it a fair assumption that all testing is done on straight putts? And perhaps there are some interesting finding for breaking putts?

Striaght putts give us the best ideas for putter fitting. 

I also think it's the toughest putt!

[pmcuk]

I've been doing some carpet putting, as you do, and these are my findings, RH L eye dom:

- a heavier putter is more stable. Total weight between 500g and 550g. If you figure on a head weight of 345g to 350g, 100g shaft, then a 60g grip comes out around 505g and a 75g grip is 520g. 

- with the above a swing weight of around D5 is pretty good

- I like a midsize grip since I have large hands, so 60-75g is typical

- I watch and play snooker, and snooker players have a slight pause at the end of the backswing and then a deliberate hit of the ball. I find this works well for me when putting. 

- I used to play #9 round mallets but they didn't really suit me. Strangely the longer sight lines didn't really help with lining up as much as I expected. I've been going back to B60, Anser and Laguna style heads and I find it easier to hit them straight. The backswing and forward stroke seems cleaner to my eyesight with a more compact head. 

 

With all the above, I'm hitting straighter putts than previously. I think the added total weight was a big factor. I used to play with 320g heads and 43g SuperStroke #2 grips. Just too light, I see now. And then using smaller, more compact heads seems to be an improvement. I now depend more on the quality and timing of the stroke than on long sight lines on the back of the putter. 

[Joe Duffer]

 

How about if you're looking straight down (90°) and from directly behind (sidesaddle/face-on style) on this putterhead design?

*The shaft is suspended and swung on a vertical (90°) plane

Please forgive me if someone has already asked/discussed this form of putting and how it affects aim.

 

Thanks,

JD

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Joe Duffer
wrong photo

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Joe Duffer said:

 

How about if you're looking straight down (90°) and from directly behind (sidesaddle/face-on style) on this putterhead design?

*The shaft is suspended and swung on a vertical (90°) plane

Please forgive me if someone has already asked/discussed this form of putting and how it affects aim.

 

Thanks,

JD

 

 

 

 

Not sure exactly what you're suggesting here but the maximum shaft angle is 80*.

 

So if the shaft was hanging vertically (90*) it would be non-conforming.

[Joe Duffer]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

Not sure exactly what you're suggesting here but the maximum shaft angle is 80*.

 

So if the shaft was hanging vertically (90*) it would be non-conforming.

Not exactly true, my friend. You are allowed to swing ANY club in your bag on ANY plane angle you choose, including a vertical plane (90°), however the maximum allowable lie angle for the club itself is 80° or in other words, 10° OFF vertical. When I putt side-saddle/face-on with the putter swinging on a vertical plane, the putterhead is not perfectly soled on the ground. The putter is suspended using gravity with the putterhead barely touching the ground, if at all. This inclination naturally raises the heel higher above the ground than the toe. I hope I made that understandable...

Edited November 29, 2022 by Joe Duffer

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Joe Duffer said:

Not exactly true, my friend. You are allowed to swing ANY club in your bag on ANY plane angle you choose, including a vertical plane (90°), however the maximum allowable lie angle for the club itself is 80° or in other words, 10° OFF vertical. When I putt side-saddle/face-on with the putter swinging on a vertical plane, the putterhead is not perfectly soled on the ground. The putter is suspended using gravity with the putterhead barely touching the ground, if at all. This inclination naturally raises the heel higher above the ground than the toe. I hope I made that understandable...

 

So the shaft is attached legally; you're just holding it at a 90* angle.

 

Gotcha. 👍

 

 

[Hosel Rockets69]

On 10/24/2022 at 9:07 AM, J13 said:

 

-EAS 5.0 will have a higher MOI than Queen B11.  With that said MOI is not the major issue companies make it out to be, in fact it's not even in the top 5 of putting problems for 99% of players.  Torque Balance is almost a universal fit as it balances the same way it moves through the path.  The people that struggle (this was me) got used to using hands a lot in the stroke which is a band aid developed over years of using an incorrect putter.  By putting in some practice, my EAS 4.0 actually trained me to take hands out of the stroke and my putting has literally NEVER been better.  

 

-Whether you stick to the 5.0 or try something else is obviously up to you but don't get fooled by marketing MOI stuff.  It has little to no effect on how you putt unless you are a beginner or a complete disaster on the greens.  

 

-AIM Bias - No one on this board can tell you where you will aim a certain shape.  Everyone views shapes and lines differently and its completely unpredictable until you check it.  If you got fit for an Edel and the 5.0 gets your aim inside the hole then putters that shift your aim forward will be better options for you.

 

Hope that helps and good luck on your journey! 

I think my real question got lost, there are numerous round back mallets where the back is not perfectly symmetrical (like the queen B I referenced). Wondering if anyone noticed aim bias for that, compared to something perfectly symmetrical (like the Edel 5.0)