It's time, Pro's (and others) should get relief from divots...

[2bGood]

19 hours ago, scotee said:

 

Played and loved the game for 50+ years and have watched many rules change. There are some pretty good arguments for the divot rule to be changed as well. 

I am on the edge of my seat waiting to hear those arguments…….

[m d g]

On 7/20/2022 at 12:32 PM, Barfolomew said:

So 2,464 potential new divots the last group has to avoid that first group did not

 

The lesson?

 

Be either a really long or a really short hitter.

 

Then all you have to worry about are your own divots : )

[golfandfishing]

7 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

I am on the edge of my seat waiting to hear those arguments…….

How about this. Players get relief from a divot, but if they miss the green after their free roll they don’t get free relief of any kind again until the next round. Make it count or lose your privileges for the rest of the day. 

[J_Tizzle]

I still think the only way you legit enforce the rule is just allow the ball up in the fairway (your own fairway).  Too many unknowns in whats a divot, healing diviot, etc..  

 

I'm not for it, but I think thats the only way you can make it a legit rule.  

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, airjammer said:

Because none of those examples where hazards made by players before you. 

 

So if I pitch or chip the ball, or putt it from off the green, and the group ahead of me left the pin tilted towards me and my ball didn't go in, what then ? Do I count it as holed ?

 

Or that same chip/pitch/putt hits an unrepaired ball mark on its way to the hole and the ball hops up and doesn't go any further or gets knocked way off line, what then ? Do I move it closer ? Consider it holed ? Or is it just a tough break ?

 

Surely you don't expect me to walk the entire path making sure the flag is straight or all the ball marks are repaired properly. I can just imagine the group behind me waiting "patiently"

 

I mean those things aren't supposed happen. Those things were caused by someone in front of me, and cost me issues/strokes/whatever.

 

Oh, and those things happen just about as often as I land in a divot. Probably more often.

[scotee]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

I am on the edge of my seat waiting to hear those arguments…….

 

You have already seen all these arguments in the 25 pages of this thread but to move you back from the edge……...

 

A divot is a man made condition.

 

Players at the back of the field have to deal with more divots than those that tee off earlier. This defies the idea that everyone plays under the same conditions.

 

How is divot relief different from all the other relief given under the current rules? Burrowing animals, embedded ball, spike marks, stymies, sprinkler heads, cart paths, tee and yardage markers. It’s now ok to remove loose impediments in a bunker, lift clean and place with rain.

 

 If it was about “play it as it lies” none of these rules of relief would exist. If pros almost always get relief from mud on the ball they should get the same relief from a man made divot. I have never played where I was given lift clean and place relief. That seems to be a pro only local rule. Play it as it lies would demand they man up and deal with mud on the ball. After all it’s not supposed to be a fair game.

 

Rules change as the current “new” rules have shown. I don’t like all the changes. Some seem silly but like it or not the rules have evolved. A new divot rule would seem more important than a knee high drop or keeping the flagstick in the hole. 

 

Some of us think it’s time for a change and some of you don’t.  Play well!

Edited July 28, 2022 by scotee

[PorkChopExpress]

Be easier to play no relief, there's no interpretation of the rules. 

 

[sui generis]

Play L I V. I understand they have free relief from divot holes. Players can wear their caps backwards, shirt tails out and smoke cigarettes while playing. Spitting and nut scratching makes for good YouTube TV, too. 🙄

[ChipStrokes]

8 minutes ago, sui generis said:

Play L I V. I understand they have free relief from divot holes. Players can wear their caps backwards, shirt tails out and smoke cigarettes while playing. Spitting and nut scratching makes for good YouTube TV, too. 🙄

you must have them confused with the PGA and euro tours

 

 

[rd1959]

delete

Edited July 29, 2022 by rd1959

[Purple Toupee]

30 minutes ago, sui generis said:

Play L I V. I understand they have free relief from divot holes. Players can wear their caps backwards, shirt tails out and smoke cigarettes while playing. Spitting and nut scratching makes for good YouTube TV, too. 🙄

LIV absolutely does not have free relief from divots.

[2bGood]

On 7/28/2022 at 4:32 PM, scotee said:

 

You have already seen all these arguments in the 25 pages of this thread but to move you back from the edge……...

 

A divot is a man made condition.

 

Players at the back of the field have to deal with more divots than those that tee off earlier. This defies the idea that everyone plays under the same conditions.

 

How is divot relief different from all the other relief given under the current rules? Burrowing animals, embedded ball, spike marks, stymies, sprinkler heads, cart paths, tee and yardage markers. It’s now ok to remove loose impediments in a bunker, lift clean and place with rain.

 

 If it was about “play it as it lies” none of these rules of relief would exist. If pros almost always get relief from mud on the ball they should get the same relief from a man made divot. I have never played where I was given lift clean and place relief. That seems to be a pro only local rule. Play it as it lies would demand they man up and deal with mud on the ball. After all it’s not supposed to be a fair game.

 

Rules change as the current “new” rules have shown. I don’t like all the changes. Some seem silly but like it or not the rules have evolved. A new divot rule would seem more important than a knee high drop or keeping the flagstick in the hole. 

 

Some of us think it’s time for a change and some of you don’t.  Play well!

Sorry for tolling you, I was not looking for a reply (as this thread is full of them). Just having a little fun. I honestly don't think this rule will ever change or at least not for 25 years+. I pointed to this before, but those that dive deep into the rules, do not support for the idea of changing the - 'play ball as it lies' rule. As I am sure you appreciate those that update the rules, have gone very deep into the rules, their history and the intent of them and the more you understand the rules, the less relief from divots make sense. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by 2bGood

[smashdn]

14 hours ago, J_Tizzle said:

I still think the only way you legit enforce the rule is just allow the ball up in the fairway (your own fairway).  Too many unknowns in whats a divot, healing diviot, etc..  

 

I'm not for it, but I think thats the only way you can make it a legit rule.  

 

I played 18 yesterday with a cart.  Never landed in a divot but made a couple.  While sanding one of mine and then another someone didn't, I saw an even older one where the grass was completely filled in and covering the entire hole but there was a noticeable hole/depression under the grass.  To your point @J_Tizzle, when do you stop getting relief from them?  I could see where hitting a ball off of that really old hole of a divot would be harder than a fresh, shallow one or even a properly sanded and tamped down one.

 

I started to take some pictures but I was playing by myself and there were threats of storms in the area so I was grinnin' and gettin'.  Played 18 in 2.5 hours and spent the last 4 holes waiting a bit after catching up to a couple who offered to let me play with them.

[J_Tizzle]

12 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

I played 18 yesterday with a cart.  Never landed in a divot but made a couple.  While sanding one of mine and then another someone didn't, I saw an even older one where the grass was completely filled in and covering the entire hole but there was a noticeable hole/depression under the grass.  To your point @J_Tizzle, when do you stop getting relief from them?  I could see where hitting a ball off of that really old hole of a divot would be harder than a fresh, shallow one or even a properly sanded and tamped down one.

 

I started to take some pictures but I was playing by myself and there were threats of storms in the area so I was grinnin' and gettin'.  Played 18 in 2.5 hours and spent the last 4 holes waiting a bit after catching up to a couple who offered to let me play with them.

 

Bingo thats my overall thought on it, its wayyyy to difficult to say "this is a divot vs this is a hole in the fairway vs this is a healing divot vs thats a healed divot".  The only way to make it universally applicable is to just say "up in fairways", which I don't love in general but I mean its the only way you can fairly and consistently apply the rule to everyone.  

 

This is coming from someone who plays bermuda fairways and if you've ever taken a nice divot on bermunda it takes about half a bottle of sand to fill it in sometimes.  

[smashdn]

14 hours ago, scotee said:

 

You have already seen all these arguments in the 25 pages of this thread but to move you back from the edge……...

 

A divot is a man made condition.

 

Players at the back of the field have to deal with more divots than those that tee off earlier. This defies the idea that everyone plays under the same conditions.

 

How is divot relief different from all the other relief given under the current rules? Burrowing animals, embedded ball, spike marks, stymies, sprinkler heads, cart paths, tee and yardage markers. It’s now ok to remove loose impediments in a bunker, lift clean and place with rain.

 

 If it was about “play it as it lies” none of these rules of relief would exist. If pros almost always get relief from mud on the ball they should get the same relief from a man made divot. I have never played where I was given lift clean and place relief. That seems to be a pro only local rule. Play it as it lies would demand they man up and deal with mud on the ball. After all it’s not supposed to be a fair game.

 

Rules change as the current “new” rules have shown. I don’t like all the changes. Some seem silly but like it or not the rules have evolved. A new divot rule would seem more important than a knee high drop or keeping the flagstick in the hole. 

 

Some of us think it’s time for a change and some of you don’t.  Play well!

 

Where is it written that everyone is supposed to play under the same conditions?  It is an outdoor game played on a natural surface.  Not every shot to the same area gets the same result.

 

Pro's are a different animal.  They don't get relief from mud on the ball for the sake of having mud on the ball.  They get relief by virtue of playing under LCP conditions which is a local rule enacted by a committee.  LCP is prevalent in pro game because they play in circumstances and conditions when they probably shouldn't for the sake of getting a tournament in according to a strict schedule dictated by TV and the next week's event, etc.

 

You and I have never played lift clean and place because we probably aren't allowed on the course when it is so wet that mud balls or plugged lies are the norm.

 

---

 

This isn't directed at anybody specifically but let's think about loose impediments and movable obstructions for a second.  We can remove them both without penalty.  We can remove movable obstructions and if we move our ball in the process we replace the ball and play on.  If we move our ball while removing a loose impediment we incur a one stroke penalty and must replace the ball.  That being said, how is it fair or equitable that a player whose ball is at rest 1/4" in front of a stick can remove that stick but a player whose ball has come to rest touching the stick essentially cannot (without the ball moving and incurring the one stroke penalty)?

 

The rules don't cover every, single incidence or occurrence possible on the course in an attempt to ensure there is equitability in all circumstances.  There are bad breaks and good breaks in this game.  How you mentally and then physically overcome this is part of it.  You hit your ball into that lie, let's see what you have in you to get it out and get it in a better spot for your next shot.

 

[smashdn]

1 minute ago, J_Tizzle said:

This is coming from someone who plays bermuda fairways and if you've ever taken a nice divot on bermunda it takes about half a bottle of sand to fill it in sometimes.  

 

We have bermuda or zoysia here.  I was on bermuda yesterday.  That stuff "creeps" as it's mechanism for filling in and that is just what was going on with that really old divot.  The runners had covered it over where the blades of grass where almost flush with the surrounding turf but someone had taken a real plow shot and there was a hole under the grass blades.  A ball stopping on it might have been supported but more likely would have settled down.

 

I splashed some sand in it for them.

[jdl]

14 hours ago, scotee said:

 

You have already seen all these arguments in the 25 pages of this thread but to move you back from the edge……...

 

A divot is a man made condition.

 

 

I mean, the course itself is man made, sooo....?? 😀

 

Unless Bezos has some golf course making robots ready. 

[J_Tizzle]

5 minutes ago, smashdn said:

I splashed some sand in it for them.

 

You're doing the Lord's work.  

 

Extra points if you fixed a couple extra pitch marks lol.  

[smashdn]

9 minutes ago, J_Tizzle said:

Extra points if you fixed a couple extra pitch marks lol.  

 

Weeks of temps in the 90's and bent greens and you can imagine what they looked like.  I tried but it was like whizzin in the ocean.

[Jc0]

16 hours ago, 2bGood said:

I am on the edge of my seat waiting to hear those arguments…….

 

Dumb luck should not determine if you have a bad lie in the fairway. You did your job and the ball stopped in the fairway, therefore you deserve a fairway lie. 

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, Jc0 said:

 

Dumb luck should not determine if you have a bad lie in the fairway. You did your job and the ball stopped in the fairway, therefore you deserve a fairway lie. 

 

But dumb luck when you hit a tree and the ball bounds into the fairway, or stops short of a penalty area, is OK, yes ? I mean, you deserve (good) luck.

 

Like it or not, LUCK, dumb or not, is a part of every sporting endeavor,,,,,,,,, not to mention LIFE.

 

Some of it's good and some of it's bad.

[toddnt]

Its time and enforce pace of play!

[RCGA]

On 7/19/2022 at 5:30 PM, Jack Pearsall said:

Play the ball where it lies is kind of the obvious mantra to golf.

 

Except:

• On the tee box
• On the green 
• Taking relief
• GUR
• Hazards & other penalties 

In fact, if you hit a lot of GIR, you hardly ever play the ball as it lies.

 

Why is the fairway considered a no-mans-land free for all? 

[Jc0]

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

But dumb luck when you hit a tree and the ball bounds into the fairway, or stops short of a penalty area, is OK, yes ? I mean, you deserve (good) luck.

 

Like it or not, LUCK, dumb or not, is a part of every sporting endeavor,,,,,,,,, not to mention LIFE.

 

Some of it's good and some of it's bad.

 

What other sport, when you do everything perfectly, punishes you for it. If you hit the ball other than the fairway then you are at the mercy of the golfing gods. It's no different in baseball than popping the ball up in the sun and getting lucky no one can see it and it dropping. You should probably have gotten out but luck was on your side. 

 

Instant replay in other sports was created to prevent similar situations in other sports. You got called out, but we're actually in bounds in football for a touchdown, instant replay allows you to get the correct result. You tag the person at home, but the umpire called him safe, instant replay allows them to correct it. You hit the ball in the fairway and roll into a divot, a drop let's you have the lie you are supposed to have.

[ChipStrokes]

14 minutes ago, Jc0 said:

What other sport, when you do everything perfectly, punishes you for it.

i’ve seen plenty of ball players get their hands through perfectly and absolutely smoke a ball off the barrel…directly at the third baseman. 

 

now you’re 0 for 1, same as if you struck out. 

 

them’s the breaks. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by ChipStrokes

[Jc0]

Just now, ChipStrokes said:

i’ve seen plenty of ball players absolutely smoke a ball off the barrel…directly at the third baseman. 

 

now you’re 0 for 1, same as if you struck out. 

 

Hitting the ball solid does not mean you've hit it to the correct spot. I've smoked plenty of tee shots directly into a tree or hit a line drive directly at the short stop.

 

This is more like hitting a gapper for a double, running into the first basemen because they were standing in the running line, getting knocked over, and then getting tagged out because the ump missed the fielder interference. You did everything right and now because something out of your control you are out. 

[ChipStrokes]

3 minutes ago, Jc0 said:

 

Hitting the ball solid does not mean you've hit it to the correct spot. I've smoked plenty of tee shots directly into a tree or hit a line drive directly at the short stop.

 

This is more like hitting a gapper for a double, running into the first basemen because they were standing in the running line, getting knocked over, and then getting tagged out because the ump missed the fielder interference. You did everything right and now because something out of your control you are out. 

no. 

 

you control your contact, not where the fielders stand. 

 

getting around on an inside fastball and hitting it on the screws is doing everything in your power perfectly. the third baseman being in the way of your base hit is the baseball version of a fairway divot. 

 

if you’re gonna make a sports analogy, understand the sport. 

[Jc0]

17 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

no. 

 

you control your contact, not where the fielders stand. 

 

getting around on an inside fastball and hitting it on the screws is doing everything in your power perfectly. the third baseman being in the way of your base hit is the baseball version of a fairway divot. 

 

if you’re gonna make a sports analogy, understand the sport. 

 

 I do understand the sport. I've played in summer college baseball leagues with active D1-D3 players. Your job as a batter is to hit the ball hard but also make sure you hit it in the right spot. You're not just blindly swinging hoping to hit it hard. When you start the at bat you should be aware of the fielders positioning and adjust your timing accordingly. 

 

Your analogy is like saying you hit a perfect shot but the top branch of a tree caught it. You may have had good contact but your shot is still crap because it didn't miss the tree.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Jc0

[golfandfishing]

24 minutes ago, Jc0 said:

 

Hitting the ball solid does not mean you've hit it to the correct spot. I've smoked plenty of tee shots directly into a tree or hit a line drive directly at the short stop.

 

This is more like hitting a gapper for a double, running into the first basemen because they were standing in the running line, getting knocked over, and then getting tagged out because the ump missed the fielder interference. You did everything right and now because something out of your control you are out. 

What about taking a pitch outside the strike zone on a 3-2 count and getting rung up anyway? Beating out a grounder but getting called out anyway?  A missed ball call?  

[ChipStrokes]

Just now, Jc0 said:

 

 I do understand the sport. I've played in summer college baseball leagues with active D1-D3 players. Your job as a batter is to hit the ball hard but also make sure you hit it in the right spot. You're not just blindly swinging hoping to hit it hard. When you start the at bat you should be aware of the fielders positioning and adjust your timing accordingly. 

 

Your analogy is like saying you hit a perfect shot but the top branch of a

tree caught it. You may have had good contact but your shot is still crap because it didn't miss the tree.

LOL. 

 

just no. 

 

you’re trying to say that within the 0.4 seconds it takes for a fastball to get from the pitcher’s hand to the hitting zone, you have to not only identify ball vs strike, in vs out, up vs down, but then decide to swing at the pitch and on top of all of that, say to yourself “hey that third baseman is pretty far off the bag, i

better not hit it there”

 

give me a break. 

 

your job as a hitter is to make hard contact. end of story. 

 

your job as a golfer is to put as good a swing on the ball as possible.