It's time, Pro's (and others) should get relief from divots...

[Jc0]

8 minutes ago, golfandfishing said:

What about taking a pitch outside the strike zone on a 3-2 count and getting rung up anyway? Beating out a grounder but getting called out anyway?  A missed ball call?  

 

That's why the robot umps are coming for balls and strikes and you can currently challenge a plays in the MLB if you think the batter is safe. Every sport is working towards removing luck and bias from the result when it should be under the players control. 

[golfandfishing]

7 minutes ago, Jc0 said:

 

That's why the robot umps are coming for balls and strikes and you can currently challenge a plays in the MLB if you think the batter is safe. Every sport is working towards removing luck and bias from the result when it should be under the players control. 

Count me out on robot umps. 

[Jc0]

9 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

LOL. 

 

just no. 

 

you’re trying to say that within the 0.4 seconds it takes for a fastball to get from the pitcher’s hand to the hitting zone, you have to not only identify ball vs strike, in vs out, up vs down, but then decide to swing at the pitch and on top of all of that, say to yourself “hey that third baseman is pretty far off the bag, i

better not hit it there”

 

give me a break. 

 

your job as a hitter is to make hard contact. end of story. 

 

your job as a golfer is to put as good a swing on the ball as possible. 

 

Yes, it is. And it's really not that hard to adjust for. It no different than trying to hit a fade or draw. You make adjustments before the at bat even starts. 

 

Example. Runner on second I want to get to third. You want the ball to go the right side of the field. I may move up in the batters box or try to start my swing an instant later than normal so that contact happens later pushing the ball to the right side of the field. You're not going to perfect accuracy but you improving you're chances of getting the ball to go where you want. 

 

Finally, at the end of the day this is about removing luck. The third basement being there is like hitting a perfect drive, but it goes to far and rolls through the fairway into the rough. You did everything you thought was right but you still caused a bad result. A ball going into a divot will never be under your control, it will always be pure luck. 

 

 

[nsxguy]

Gotta say, I've never heard a baseball player call a baseline a runner line.

[ChipStrokes]

1 minute ago, nsxguy said:

Gotta say, I've never heard a baseball player call a baseline a runner line.

but he played in the summer. 

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, Jc0 said:

 

Yes, it is. And it's really not that hard to adjust for. It no different than trying to hit a fade or draw. You make adjustments before the at bat even starts. 

 

Example. Runner on second I want to get to third. You want the ball to go the right side of the field. I may move up in the batters box or try to start my swing an instant later than normal so that contact happens later pushing the ball to the right side of the field. You're not going to perfect accuracy but you improving you're chances of getting the ball to go where you want. 

 

Finally, at the end of the day this is about removing luck. The third basement being there is like hitting a perfect drive, but it goes to far and rolls through the fairway into the rough. You did everything you thought was right but you still caused a bad result. A ball going into a divot will never be under your control, it will always be pure luck. 

 

 

 

If the guy is on second, you’re just swinging away to get a hit and bring him home. You’re not trying to advance him to third. 
 

The only times a hitter is thinking about where to not hit the ball, is if a guy is on third and you really need a run, you don’t want to ground out to the left side. Or you might think fly ball so at least it’s a sacrifice and a run. But even then, given all the dynamics of pitch count, and the split second nature, your just trying to make the best contact. 
 

You can “look for a pitch” outside to drive to the opposite field, but who knows if you’ll get it. 
 

Hitters don’t think about where they want to hit the ball. You have no idea what the pitcher is throwing. And if you’re down in the count, you’re just trying to make contact and not K. 
 

Guys hit into double plays, pop out to the infield, whiff looking bad, or strike out looking. They have no idea where the ball is going. You’re only getting a hit 2/3 times and that’s a great result. 

[oikos1]

On 7/28/2022 at 8:24 PM, ChipStrokes said:

you must have them confused with the PGA and euro tours

 

 

This, this and this. 

 

It's quite enlightening when the facade is exposed.  As in, "Oh no, never ever ever, we don't have these things on the golf tour I watch".

 

Well, yeah you do. 

[2bGood]

6 hours ago, RCGA said:

 

Except:

• On the tee box
• On the green 
• Taking relief
• GUR
• Hazards & other penalties 

In fact, if you hit a lot of GIR, you hardly ever play the ball as it lies.

 

Why is the fairway considered a no-mans-land free for all? 

 

Are you  familiar with the rules of golf and there history?

- Teeing Area -  golfers have never player the ball as it lies - in the teeing area. Your ball is not in play yet.

- On the green, came into play in part as golf courses did not want their greens damaged.

-Taking relief, again it was about damage to parts of the the course as modern agronomy came in to play (it was not to 'help' the golfer or remove luck)

-GUR, this one area you can  make a cogent argument. The major distinction is the committee defines GUR not the players

-Hazards (penalty areas) - You do have to play the ball as it lies. If you choose not to, you get a penalty. You can do the exact same thing with a divot, play it as it lies or move it with a one stroke penalty 

 

 

4 hours ago, Jc0 said:

 

That's why the robot umps are coming for balls and strikes and you can currently challenge a plays in the MLB if you think the batter is safe. Every sport is working towards removing luck and bias from the result when it should be under the players control. 

 

I will say I am consistent. Not fan of robot umps or video replay. I like the human element in sport, even in how it is officiated. 

[davep043]

20 hours ago, Jc0 said:

 

That's why the robot umps are coming for balls and strikes and you can currently challenge a plays in the MLB if you think the batter is safe. Every sport is working towards removing luck and bias from the result when it should be under the players control. 

Its easy to do this in golf, play indoors on a simulator.  Always a perfect lie.  I'll play outside, and take my bad breaks along with the good ones.

[smashdn]

On 7/29/2022 at 9:57 PM, bscinstnct said:

 

If the guy is on second, you’re just swinging away to get a hit and bring him home. You’re not trying to advance him to third. 
 

The only times a hitter is thinking about where to not hit the ball, is if a guy is on third and you really need a run, you don’t want to ground out to the left side. Or you might think fly ball so at least it’s a sacrifice and a run. But even then, given all the dynamics of pitch count, and the split second nature, your just trying to make the best contact. 
 

You can “look for a pitch” outside to drive to the opposite field, but who knows if you’ll get it. 
 

Hitters don’t think about where they want to hit the ball. You have no idea what the pitcher is throwing. And if you’re down in the count, you’re just trying to make contact and not K. 
 

Guys hit into double plays, pop out to the infield, whiff looking bad, or strike out looking. They have no idea where the ball is going. You’re only getting a hit 2/3 times and that’s a great result. 

 

I hate I am entertaining a baseball discussion in the divot thread but...

 

First bolded part:  So much of your plate approach depends on what type of hitter you are and what you are capable of.  But you are not "just swinging away" with a runner on second.  A groundball to the right side does you way more good than one to the left in that scenario doesn't it?  Were you not taught as a runner on second "at you or behind you you are going," and "ball hit in front of you hold your ground?"

 

Second bolded part, hit and run play you have to do exactly what you are describing cannot be done.  And it gets done plenty.  You wait for the pitch to get deep on you and hit it to the right side.  Preferably on the ground and through the hole where the second baseman has vacated.

[smashdn]

On 7/30/2022 at 12:38 AM, 2bGood said:

 

Are you  familiar with the rules of golf and there history?

- Teeing Area -  golfers have never player the ball as it lies - in the teeing area. Your ball is not in play yet.

- On the green, came into play in part as golf courses did not want their greens damaged.

-Taking relief, again it was about damage to parts of the the course as modern agronomy came in to play (it was not to 'help' the golfer or remove luck)

-GUR, this one area you can  make a cogent argument. The major distinction is the committee defines GUR not the players

-Hazards (penalty areas) - You do have to play the ball as it lies. If you choose not to, you get a penalty. You can do the exact same thing with a divot, play it as it lies or move it with a one stroke penalty 

 

 

 

I will say I am consistent. Not fan of robot umps or video replay. I like the human element in sport, even in how it is officiated. 

 

GUR I was going to say was also about protecting the course.  No super wants a hack to take beaver pelts from his newly seeded areas.

 

Also, when you take relief, in most scenarios, you DROP the ball so as to maintain the randomness of lies.  The pros have gotten very good at using slopes when they drop to get the ball to finish outside the arc where they are allowed their relief, thus gaining them the advantage of then having to place the ball where it lands.  I would say (and I am just another golfer so my opinion bears the same weight as any other and no more) that is not the intent of the rule and (my opinion) not really in the spirit of the game.

[bscinstnct]

46 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

I hate I am entertaining a baseball discussion in the divot thread but...

 

First bolded part:  So much of your plate approach depends on what type of hitter you are and what you are capable of.  But you are not "just swinging away" with a runner on second.  A groundball to the right side does you way more good than one to the left in that scenario doesn't it?  Were you not taught as a runner on second "at you or behind you you are going," and "ball hit in front of you hold your ground?"

 

Second bolded part, hit and run play you have to do exactly what you are describing cannot be done.  And it gets done plenty.  You wait for the pitch to get deep on you and hit it to the right side.  Preferably on the ground and through the hole where the second baseman has vacated.

 

Yo, yes, I have this right under what you bolded….

 

“you don’t want to ground out to the left side. Or you might think fly ball so at least it’s a sacrifice and a run. But even then, given all the dynamics of pitch count, and the split second nature, your just trying to make the best contact. “

 

And the second part of your post, keep in mind I said this,

 

“You can “look for a pitch” outside to drive to the opposite field, but who knows if you’ll get it. “

 

So, we agree, situational awareness is huge in baseball. I actually liked baseball even more than uncle Rico football! Played center field and hit number 3-5 in the order. Just HS baseball but we were good! 
 

But I maintain that, given all the dynamics of an at bat, being ahead or behind in the count, the type of pitcher you’re facing vs. your traits as a hitter, with a man on second, you’re just trying to drive the ball hard anywhere and get a run. 
 

But yes, you should definitely be aware of what the situation is and try not to screw up. It’s just that hitting a baseball ain’t easy. As we know, just getting some sort of hit 1/3 of the time is considered outstanding. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jonsnow]

I think some posters would be happier if they played all their rounds at Topgolf. 

[smashdn]

3 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

But yes, you should definitely be aware of what the situation is and try not to screw up. It’s just that hitting a baseball ain’t easy. As we know, just getting some sort of hit 1/3 of the time is considered outstanding.

 

Hitting a baseball /= getting a Hit.

[bscinstnct]

36 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Hitting a baseball /= getting a Hit.

 

It ain’t bp where the pitcher just tosses you meatballs to crush. 
 

Like, we used to face this one pitcher. Kid was 6’6. And he had a total overhand motion. When he was on the mound and he threw it was like the ball was coming down on you straight out of the sky!

 

Plus he had this evil deuce that would start coming at your head 🤣

 

You get down in the count and you’re just hoping to make contact and not K. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by bscinstnct

[GolfTurkey]

11 hours ago, jonsnow said:

I think some posters would be happier if they played all their rounds at Topgolf. 

 

Yes, and I think some would be happier if they played all their rounds naked at midnight in the Siberian winter while being chased by rabid wolves and shot at by snipers.

[jonsnow]

5 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

Yes, and I think some would be happier if they played all their rounds naked at midnight in the Siberian winter while being chased by rabid wolves and shot at by snipers.

Of course they would. Who wouldn't?

[Valtiel]

9 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

Yes, and I think some would be happier if they played all their rounds naked at midnight in the Siberian winter while being chased by rabid wolves and shot at by snipers.

Uphill, don't forget the uphill part. 

[farmer]

Why?  What if you hit the most beautiful drive, it hits a sprinkler head in the fairway and bounds into the rough.  Should you get relief there?  I haven't read the whole thread, but it's a stupid idea.  I'm sure that someone has mentioned that every sketchy lie could entail a debate:  divot/ not a divot.

Edited August 4, 2022 by farmer
bad spelling

[golfandfishing]

On 8/2/2022 at 7:39 PM, GolfTurkey said:

 

Yes, and I think some would be happier if they played all their rounds naked at midnight in the Siberian winter while being chased by rabid wolves and shot at by snipers.

I did not play golf on my honeymoon sir. 

[trilerian]

Went on vacation and played a course.  Found a divot on 18 and thought of this thread.  I am adding pics so people can see the appropriate way of dealing with a divot while playing.  

 

1. Ball comes to rest in a divot hole.

 

2. Hit ball out of divot hole.

 

3. Fill divot hole with sand. 

[Valtiel]

DJ and Collin pretty clear on how they feel. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Valtiel

[Chunkitgood]

Not gonna watch but suspect they want relief.

 

Don’t care what they want.

 

A ball in a divot presents a mental or emotional challenge, as well as a challenge of technique, of just the sort golf is designed to provide (you know, that whole intermittent reinforcement thing).

 

But it appears some people equate any challenge they cannot handle with inherent unfairness.

 

 

[oikos1]

7 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

Not gonna watch but suspect they want relief.

 

Don’t care what they want.

 

A ball in a divot presents a mental or emotional challenge, as well as a challenge of technique, of just the sort golf is designed to provide (you know, that whole intermittent reinforcement thing).

 

But it appears some people equate any challenge they cannot handle with inherent unfairness.

 

 

Considering the numerous opportunities for "free relief" within the rules of golf, the USGA and R&A disagree with this general sentiment.

 

Watching PGA Tour pros play "ball in hand" at the Tour Championship indicates the PGA Tour disagrees as well.

[golfandfishing]

16 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Considering the numerous opportunities for "free relief" within the rules of golf, the USGA and R&A disagree with this general sentiment.

 

Watching PGA Tour pros play "ball in hand" at the Tour Championship indicates the PGA Tour disagrees as well.

I definitely think the PGA Tour allows way too much free relief. The drivable par 4 at the match play tournament has grandstands built alongside the right of the green, right of that is another green. Players miss it way right and often on or through that green, which would be a blind shot off a downhill lie in the rough at a green running towards the water but the free drop from TIO is in the first cut of rough with a good angle. In match play this is enormously unfair to reward a terrible drive like that, it would be almost impossible to win or even halve the hole from over there. One year there were no fans allowed and they still installed the TIO. I am convinced players lobbied for it so they could get their free relief. If this type of coddling is allowed it’s admittedly hard to argue the divot thing. 

[jdl]

Relief from really big divots was allowed! 😄

[Slicepro]

On 3/7/2021 at 9:18 PM, larciel said:

Yeah. I'm not sure what's so hard about this. Are they worried this will give players an unfair edge?

 

It's same as 'pick-up and clean'. If you're in Fairway and in a divot, replace the ball 2 inches away. 

 

Duh.

I agree 100%. I don’t think they should get a drop, but they should get relief enough to hit their normal shot from the fairway. I think the lift clean and place rule is a lot more lenient than getting relief from a divot and you only get that with certain course conditions.
I mean, clubhead width for any club they’re using is totally fair in my opinion.

[Shilgy]

On 7/4/2025 at 2:32 PM, Slicepro said:

I agree 100%. I don’t think they should get a drop, but they should get relief enough to hit their normal shot from the fairway. I think the lift clean and place rule is a lot more lenient than getting relief from a divot and you only get that with certain course conditions.
I mean, clubhead width for any club they’re using is totally fair in my opinion.

What would you call that game?  Almost Golf?

[airjammer]

6 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

What would you call that game?  Almost Golf?

The pros already play almost golf so what’s the difference?

 

They get relief from all kinds of objects. Every effort is made so they can put on the most entertaining show possible. There is nothing entertaining about a golfer hitting a good shot only to end up in a divot and depending on pin location no chance of getting it close to the pin. 

[Shilgy]

49 minutes ago, airjammer said:

The pros already play almost golf so what’s the difference?

 

They get relief from all kinds of objects. Every effort is made so they can put on the most entertaining show possible. There is nothing entertaining about a golfer hitting a good shot only to end up in a divot and depending on pin location no chance of getting it close to the pin. 

Makes me wonder how they got good enough to get to the level where they get all these entertaining breaks.  Besides TIO’s, which you would get relief from as well if your course had any, what other “all kinds of objects” do they get relief from?  And some do get entertainment from watching the best in the world battle the elements, and sometimes bad breaks, to play this game we all seem to be obsessed over. If all I wanted from pro golf was to see the best robotically hit good shots we could just watch TGL where every shot is off a deal level flat lie that they get to create