It's time, Pro's (and others) should get relief from divots...

[OrangeGravy]

2 hours ago, woodriff said:

I’m divided. But Blade has a good point. We move into a grey area on divots. Old divot, new divot, divot from them tournament. I would say that all divots be repaired with the sod, and sand. Might slow down play a bit, but repaired after the shot is hit with sand and sod would help. 

Why do we allow players to police each other when it comes to drops and where balls entered hazards,  etc..., but it's a bridge too far to trust golfers to handle the divot/no divot conundrum? 

It seems golfers love to claim that last bastion of honesty and integrity when it suits, but are quick to ignore it when it doesn't bolster their preference.  

 

Not singling anyone out specifically. This is more of a general question I have about that single argument against allowing relief from divots. It's too hypocritical in your opinion. I respect the tradition argument more even though it's an emotional one. 

[smashdn]

Relief is an exception from the ultimate rule of playing your ball as you find it.  Exceptions, imo, should be few.  The less the ball ends up in any golfer's hand the better and truer to the intent of the game.

 

I also feel that tv golf has skewed our thoughts to an extent.  We see every "major" application of the rules because an official inevitably gets brought in and it makes good tv.  I have seen the players apply the rules themselves when there isnt a camera or official called over.  You tell your playing partner what is up and what you are doing, you do it, and go on.  We never see that.

 

Also, we, as society as a whole, have got this concept of fairness stuck in our collective heads.  That if action by Player/Person A doesn't result in the exact same outcome from the same action by Player/person B that is unfair.  We collectively can't stand that variance in results.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

37 minutes ago, smashdn said:

Relief is an exception from the ultimate rule of playing your ball as you find it.  Exceptions, imo, should be few.  The less the ball ends up in any golfer's hand the better and truer to the intent of the game.

 

I also feel that tv golf has skewed our thoughts to an extent.  We see every "major" application of the rules because an official inevitably gets brought in and it makes good tv.  I have seen the players apply the rules themselves when there isnt a camera or official called over.  You tell your playing partner what is up and what you are doing, you do it, and go on.  We never see that.

 

Also, we, as society as a whole, have got this concept of fairness stuck in our collective heads.  That if action by Player/Person A doesn't result in the exact same outcome from the same action by Player/person B that is unfair.  We collectively can't stand that variance in results.

I do agree that TV golf influences this debate, most average players would probably just roll it out of a divot in a typical round, players that don’t roll it will just deal with it and move on. Pro golf has 150+ players over practice rounds and two full rounds, that’s a lot of players playing from similar spots across a week. It’s much more likely for it to happen, though still rare.
 

If your favorite player gets to the back 9 on Sunday with a chance to win or there is a good battle between two or more players, you don’t want to see them in a divot after a good shot and have it potentially cost them the tournament. Sure most of them know how to play from it but it’s not a natural part of the course, it’s essentially damage caused by another player. 

 

[smashdn]

I would expect a decent golfer to be able to handle it better than I do, and I have had no problem hitting from one the handful of times it has happened in 20+ years of playing.

[oikos1]

45 minutes ago, smashdn said:

Relief is an exception from the ultimate rule of playing your ball as you find it.  Exceptions, imo, should be few.  The less the ball ends up in any golfer's hand the better and truer to the intent of the game.

 

I also feel that tv golf has skewed our thoughts to an extent.  We see every "major" application of the rules because an official inevitably gets brought in and it makes good tv.  I have seen the players apply the rules themselves when there isnt a camera or official called over.  You tell your playing partner what is up and what you are doing, you do it, and go on.  We never see that.

 

Also, we, as society as a whole, have got this concept of fairness stuck in our collective heads.  That if action by Player/Person A doesn't result in the exact same outcome from the same action by Player/person B that is unfair.  We collectively can't stand that variance in results.

The first time "free relief" was given, that floodgate was open. 

 

If there was no free relief period, the old "them's the breaks", good luck/bad luck/tough luck, there wouldn't be an issue.  Take an "unplayable", add a stroke and move on.

 

Golfers don't like that.

[smashdn]

Free relief is still a pretty rare thing.  Swing and stance from unnatural immovable objects and temporary water are probably the two most prominent.

[clinkinfo]

On 3/8/2021 at 7:10 AM, Ferguson said:

 

Indeed.  Divots are a part of the game - tough break, like landing behind a tree. 

Next are we going to say we should NOT have to putt through an old ball mark? 

 

"Look, Rex, an old divot."  

"Oh, Hank, you get relief."

 

No.  Play it as it lies.

 

This analogy doesn't even make sense.  We generally don't plant trees in the fairway, and the groups in front of you aren't planting new trees that you now need to get lucky and avoid. 

 

It's not even remotely close to the same thing.

 

And we can fix ball marks on the green before we have to putt!

[clinkinfo]

On 3/8/2021 at 2:57 AM, 3whacker said:

IMO a divot in the fairway is Ground Under Repair and fair and equitable relief should be given within the rules and spirit of the game...I know golf purists will disagree but if you give relief from yardage markers, French drains, and sprinkler heads, which are all man made hazards/obstructions, then so is a divot...the ball should be placed as close to the divot as possible no nearer the hole and without cleaning the ball

 

Well said.  I've often wondered why this exact interpretation isn't accepted 

[oikos1]

21 minutes ago, smashdn said:

Free relief is still a pretty rare thing.  Swing and stance from unnatural immovable objects and temporary water are probably the two most prominent.

Not that rare:

 

https://www.about-golf.org/rules-of-golf-take-advantage-of-free-relief/

 

"In summary, it may be surprising to beginners that there are actually quite a few places where you are entitled to move your ball without penalty."

[oikos1]

These are to remind all those who say "Oh dear, we can't change a rule.  It's too difficult.  What about the traditions of the game" :

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/14-ways-your-game-can-benefit-from-the-new-rules-of-golf

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/rules-of-golf-you-should-be-taking-advantage-of-to-shoot-lower-scores

[smashdn]

9 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Not that rare:

 

https://www.about-golf.org/rules-of-golf-take-advantage-of-free-relief/

 

"In summary, it may be surprising to beginners that there are actually quite a few places where you are entitled to move your ball without penalty."

 So, of the two times I mentioned in what you quoted there is one other, ground under repair.  The author of what you linked has broken out new grass and trees as a separate class of ground under repair.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

37 minutes ago, smashdn said:

I would expect a decent golfer to be able to handle it better than I do, and I have had no problem hitting from one the handful of times it has happened in 20+ years of playing.

 

I don't see how this has any bearing on the discussion. A decent golfer could also hit it off a cart path. 

[smashdn]

A cart path isn't natural.  Neither is a yardage sign or "barber pole" in the middle of the fairway.

 

That is my interpretation of why it is treated differently than a divot [hole] within the rules.

 

Also, this was my response to how I would feel if my favorite player hit into a divot. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by smashdn

[TLUBulldogGolf]

2 minutes ago, smashdn said:

A cart path isn't natural.  Neither is a yardage sign or "barber pole" in the middle of the fairway.

 

That is my interpretation of why it is treated differently than a divot [hole] within the rules.

 

If I close the course for a month will there be divots (assuming the old ones are repaired properly)?

Edited July 20, 2022 by TLUBulldogGolf

[smashdn]

1 minute ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

If I close the course for a month will there be divots?

Depends on the turf and time of year but in most instances no.

 

Again, that is my interpretation as to the reasoning. I base that upon the phrasing "abnormal course condition."  There isnt anything abnormal or unexpected if you find a divot hole.  Rather, I would expect to find them to some degree.  If they are clustered, in say a depression, the super/committee can mark them as gur. 

 

My opinion is again likely biased by my experience is that it just isn't that hard to play from a divot hole.  If I ever got into one so deep or so positioned in it where I didn't feel like I could get a club on the back of the ball and in a positive direction I woukd just take the unplayable penalty.  But I still would think in most conditions I could stilk "wedge it" down the fairway into a more advantageous spot than dropoing to the side or back of line or replaying from previous spot.

[smashdn]

38 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

 

Well said.  I've often wondered why this exact interpretation isn't accepted 

 Per The Rules gur has to be marked.  Who marks divots?  That is why that interpretation wouldn't be accepted in accordance with the rules.

[Barfolomew]

DO SOME MATH: How many divots did last 2 players potentially face compared to first 2 players, just on Thursday

 

Players Championship had:

156 players 

10 par 4s....... 154 X 10 divots= 1,540 new divots

4 par 5s..........154 X 6 divots = 924 new divots

4 par 3s.......... none

 

So 2,464 potential new divots the last group has to avoid that first group did not

 

Par 4 one divot, Par 5 1.5 divots because guessing half lay up or forced to lay up lol

 

Is my math correct??? Now I know not everyone hits fairway that's why its potential but you could add actually fairways hit % to make it accurate but then again there are a lot of punch outs from trees etc... Even if it was half that number still over 1000

 

Cause that's way more potential divots then I woulda guessed that the last group has to face that weren't even there for the first group

 

#LetThemMoveTheBall

 

The rule is what complicates everything...... make it extremely simple then.  Make hitting the fairway a HUGE premium over the rough.  It also might dial guys back from trying to bomb it so far..... How?:

 

If you ever hit fairway you can always place ball within 1 grip length, no closer.  Now if guys gonna be kok heads and start using 3 foot grips then all they can all have a short 10 inch standard ruler carried on side of bag..... it would be fast and so you would never need an official cause they can always place it perfect so they can have the advantage and dont need to be watched. Plus as a fan I want players to have great lies because I wanna see great shots not crap shots... 🦖 

 

But first you have to agree Divots are lame before arguing the rule...

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Barfolomew

[smashdn]

First don't you need to define fairway?

[PorkChopExpress]

How many divots are you guys hitting into? 
 

I can’t remember last time I was in a divot lol

Edited July 20, 2022 by PorkChopExpress

[trilerian]

24 minutes ago, PorkChopExpress said:

How many divots are you guys hitting into? 
 

I can’t remember last time I was in a divot lol

I find my fair share of them. I’ve hit out of a few I can remember this season and probably at least that many that I can’t remember. The big one I remember this season though was kind of reverse, lol. It was in some thick rough and I thought, ah, what a lucky break, lol.

[scotee]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

First don't you need to define fairway?

 

Yes, and they already do this in every lift clean and place tournament. Again, It's not rocket science. Closely mown = fairway. First cut no.

[ThinkingPlus]

The most important reason for leaving the rule as it is now is because I have developed the skill necessary to play out of a divot.  Others have not.  I don't wish to give up that advantage. 

[golfer07840]

4 hours ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

I do agree that TV golf influences this debate, most average players would probably just roll it out of a divot in a typical round, players that don’t roll it will just deal with it and move on. Pro golf has 150+ players over practice rounds and two full rounds, that’s a lot of players playing from similar spots across a week. It’s much more likely for it to happen, though still rare.
 

If your favorite player gets to the back 9 on Sunday with a chance to win or there is a good battle between two or more players, you don’t want to see them in a divot after a good shot and have it potentially cost them the tournament. Sure most of them know how to play from it but it’s not a natural part of the course, it’s essentially damage caused by another player. 

 

Paul Casey at The Players on 16 in the final round this year immediately comes to mind. 

 

And of course there was the 98 US Open debacle on 18 with Payne Stewart. 

[Mr.Cleeks]

I disagree. Golf is all about the elements and adapting to different situations. Before you know it people will be calling trees immovable obstructions.

[puttingmatt]

Pro's easily handle an occasional ball in a divot. Its the amateur that wants free relief. 

[Krt22]

28 minutes ago, KizIsTheMan said:

I disagree. Golf is all about the elements and adapting to different situations. Before you know it people will be calling trees immovable obstructions.

Staked trees are. If you just declare the tree is staked, instant relief. 

[clinkinfo]

3 hours ago, PorkChopExpress said:

How many divots are you guys hitting into? 
 

I can’t remember last time I was in a divot lol

 

I played yesterday and I was in at least 1 divot yesterday.  Happens pretty much all the time unless you have very good course repair going on 

[clinkinfo]

31 minutes ago, KizIsTheMan said:

I disagree. Golf is all about the elements and adapting to different situations. Before you know it people will be calling trees immovable obstructions.

 

 

No, this discussion is pretty much identical to the discussion about spike marks and why we historically couldn't repair them on the green.

 

Purists who never want any change would argue the same things, it's part of the game, tough luck, if we change this where does it end.....blah blah blah.

 

In the end, they aren't supposed to be there because another player made it and never fixed it.  It should be gur.

[Krt22]

16 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

 

I played yesterday and I was in at least 1 divot yesterday.  Happens pretty much all the time unless you have very good course repair going on 

I play ~100 times a year and I can't even remember the last time I was in a divot, even in the winter when our fairways go dormant. 

[bobfoster]

14 hours ago, Titleist84 said:

I questioned you being a traditionalist since you choose to cherry pick what should be considered "play it as it lies".  Never once threw out any insults but you sure did.  I told you to grow up and stop being childish which you are still doing.  Then you went on and on post after post changing the subject trying to threadjack which didn't work.  The topic is about divots, not your age, scores, clubhead speed, or your travel plans.

Gosh - you must be a total riot at parties! Thanks for your assessment! Proud to be called childish by the likes of you. Notice you still didn't answer a single one of the adult points I made - but seems like I may not actually be the minority opinion here. 

 

Additionally, I'm a President's Club member of the USGA - know some of the guys. Consider this debate trivial because there are far more significant things that are occupying their attention. Tried to make that point. Interesting article here:

 

https://www.golfmagic.com/features/golf-ball-divot-fairway-why-rule-will-never-change

 

So guess what - not everyone agrees with you about the importance of divots. In fact, the USGA doesn't agree with you. In saying this was a kind of trivial issue, it was not some personal attack on you, was just saying that I find it trivial, and in fact, the actual Rules bodies consider it far down on the list of things they are dealing with right now. 

 

And PS. I didn't try to "threadjack". Was responding to someone else that wanted to talk about something else. Threads often spin off into all manner of different directions here. 

 

Personally, while these charming little digs are fun, I'd rather talk about golf, and find commonalities. For instance, your screen name is Titleist84, so ordinarily I'd be predisposed to like you (since I've been a Titleist fanatics for years, and have been waiting for a custom TS13 driver for a frustratingly long three months now).

 

How about we start again? I got your point (listened to it), but you didn't listen to, or respond to the case I made. I'm actually all for respectful conversations with people who's opinions differ from mine. Often "agree to disagree" with friends here without anything needing to get nasty. (The LIV has fractured a lot or relationships, but I've noticed long time posters here are even starting to compartmentalize their disagreements about that). 

 

Hi Titleist84, I'm Bob. Pleasure to meet you. (Genuinely).

Edited July 21, 2022 by bobfoster