It's time, Pro's (and others) should get relief from divots...

[golfandfishing]

2 hours ago, KizIsTheMan said:

I disagree. Golf is all about the elements and adapting to different situations. Before you know it people will be calling trees immovable obstructions.

Happens regularly on the tour. Xander tried to get relief from the middle of a gorse bush last week. 

[Titleist84]

52 minutes ago, bobfoster said:

Gosh - you must be a total riot at parties! Thanks for your assessment! Proud to be called childish by the likes of you. Notice you still didn't answer a single one of the adult points I made - but seems like I may not actually be the minority opinion here. 

 

Guess what - not everyone agrees with you - I get that that is apparently hard to take. So - grow up? Stick to the subject you seem do fixated on?

 

PS. I didn't try to "threadjack". Was responding to someone else that wanted to talk about something else. Threads often spin off into all manner of different directions here. 

 

Personally, while these charming little digs are fun, I'd rather talk about golf, and find commonalities. For instance, your screen name is Titleist84, so ordinarily I'd be predisposed to like you (since I've been a Titleist5 fanatics for years, and have been waiting for a custom TS13 driver for a frustratingly long three months now).

 

How about we start again?

I addressed your first two points of being a traditionalist and defining what a divot would be. 

 

Your third point about it being rare so just hit the ball.  I see your point, I actually don't remember the last time I've hit in a divot but I don't think that should be a reason to force players to play from a divot.  I think hitting fairways should be rewarded not penalized due to bad luck.  I don't want to win or lose thanks to luck.  

 

Let me know if I missed any other points you had.

 

Fair enough let's start over. I played Titleist drivers from the 975D to 910D2 but I've been hooked on Taylormade woods since the M2.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

I don’t see how frequency of occurrence or difficulty playing from it have any bearing on whether or not there should be a rule. I won’t argue with either of those, it’s essentially damage to the course though and I don’t understand why having to play from it is something to be preserved.

 

[Titleist84]

43 minutes ago, golfandfishing said:

Happens regularly on the tour. Xander tried to get relief from the middle of a gorse bush last week. 

Was that bush in the fairway?  

[golfandfishing]

3 minutes ago, Titleist84 said:

Was that bush in the fairway?  

Yeah. Yeah it was. 

[ChipStrokes]

12 minutes ago, Titleist84 said:

Was that bush in the fairway?  

hey man! that’s someone’s wife you’re talking about!

[bobfoster]

2 hours ago, Titleist84 said:

I addressed your first two points of being a traditionalist and defining what a divot would be. 

 

Your third point about it being rare so just hit the ball.  I see your point, I actually don't remember the last time I've hit in a divot but I don't think that should be a reason to force players to play from a divot.  I think hitting fairways should be rewarded not penalized due to bad luck.  I don't want to win or lose thanks to luck.  

 

Let me know if I missed any other points you had.

 

Fair enough let's start over. I played Titleist drivers from the 975D to 910D2 but I've been hooked on Taylormade woods since the M2.

What I can tell you in practice (and I hope you hear me on this), is that the USGA considers this as trivial. It is simply not something they think it is worth their energy, the distance issue is now on the front burner (and they are having a horrid time trying to figure it out ... they have a bunch of options - from standards on clubs, or balls, or courses, none of which are very good. 

 

But it is a big deal right now (especially after The Open). The distance debate (from my emails with my USGA friends) is what they are obsessing about right now. 

 

Totally never meant to demean you, but am pretty reali8stic about golf. And the USGA/R&A just really never thought divots were that important. 

 

But, I'd totally play 18 w/ you dude!

[oikos1]

9 hours ago, Barfolomew said:

DO SOME MATH: How many divots did last 2 players potentially face compared to first 2 players, just on Thursday

 

Players Championship had:

156 players 

10 par 4s....... 154 X 10 divots= 1,540 new divots

4 par 5s..........154 X 6 divots = 924 new divots

4 par 3s.......... none

 

So 2,464 potential new divots the last group has to avoid that first group did not

 

Par 4 one divot, Par 5 1.5 divots because guessing half lay up or forced to lay up lol

 

Is my math correct??? Now I know not everyone hits fairway that's why its potential but you could add actually fairways hit % to make it accurate but then again there are a lot of punch outs from trees etc... Even if it was half that number still over 1000

 

Cause that's way more potential divots then I woulda guessed that the last group has to face that weren't even there for the first group

 

#LetThemMoveTheBall

 

The rule is what complicates everything...... make it extremely simple then.  Make hitting the fairway a HUGE premium over the rough.  It also might dial guys back from trying to bomb it so far..... How?:

 

If you ever hit fairway you can always place ball within 1 grip length, no closer.  Now if guys gonna be kok heads and start using 3 foot grips then all they can all have a short 10 inch standard ruler carried on side of bag..... it would be fast and so you would never need an official cause they can always place it perfect so they can have the advantage and dont need to be watched. Plus as a fan I want players to have great lies because I wanna see great shots not crap shots... 🦖 

 

But first you have to agree Divots are lame before arguing the rule...

 

That is awesome work.  I took the liberty of using your metrics to apply to a busy Saturday, 24 players going off every hour for nine hours and came up with 3,896 divots.  That does not include the extra one or two hacks in the fairway that many ams need to make double bogey or worse.  Yeah, that's a lot of divots taken and they aren't healing by Sunday.

[oikos1]

7 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The most important reason for leaving the rule as it is now is because I have developed the skill necessary to play out of a divot.  Others have not.  I don't wish to give up that advantage. 

Now that is honesty I can appreciate.  Makes perfect sense.

 

Got me thinking if this rule change jacked up a few golfers:

 

 

[ThinkingPlus]

6 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Now that is honesty I can appreciate.  Makes perfect sense.

 

Got me thinking if this rule change jacked up a few golfers:

 

 

Only makes sense in match play. Can you imagine the POP of a 4 ball playing in proper order with stymies? The rabbits would go insane. LOL!

[BlackDiamondPar5]

13 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The most important reason for leaving the rule as it is now is because I have developed the skill necessary to play out of a divot.  Others have not.  I don't wish to give up that advantage. 

and it's actually a shot that's easy to practice.

[smashdn]

10 hours ago, Titleist84 said:

I addressed your first two points of being a traditionalist and defining what a divot would be. 

 

Your third point about it being rare so just hit the ball.  I see your point, I actually don't remember the last time I've hit in a divot but I don't think that should be a reason to force players to play from a divot.  I think hitting fairways should be rewarded not penalized due to bad luck.  I don't want to win or lose thanks to luck.  

 

Let me know if I missed any other points you had.

 

Fair enough let's start over. I played Titleist drivers from the 975D to 910D2 but I've been hooked on Taylormade woods since the M2.

 

First bolded part, you are not forced to play from it.

 

Second bolded part, if we seek to eliminate bad luck, should we also eliminate good luck so we don't win or lose based on luck?

[2bGood]

21 hours ago, OrangeGravy said:

Why do we allow players to police each other when it comes to drops and where balls entered hazards,  etc..., but it's a bridge too far to trust golfers to handle the divot/no divot conundrum? 

It seems golfers love to claim that last bastion of honesty and integrity when it suits, but are quick to ignore it when it doesn't bolster their preference.  

 

Not singling anyone out specifically. This is more of a general question I have about that single argument against allowing relief from divots. It's too hypocritical in your opinion. I respect the tradition argument more even though it's an emotional one. 

 

A drop and where you went entered a penalty area is not subjective. A divot is subjective. Big difference.

 

 

[Ferguson]

7 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

 

A drop and where you went entered a penalty area is not subjective. A divot is subjective. Big difference.

 

 

 

From a long history of observing golfers on both muni and private courses, I'm guessing 8 of 10 amateurs move their ball 100% of the time 50% of the time. Therefore, this divot thing applies only to tournament play and I remain steadfast - play it as it lies. 

 

     

[smashdn]

Been my argument as well.  Those yelling loudest, by and large, don't play by The Rules anyway, why do you get so bent out of shape on this issue?

[TLUBulldogGolf]

Tournament play should strive to identify the best player. I suppose ability to potentially play from a divot is something to be identified, I just don't agree. And I can play from a divot just fine.

 

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

First bolded part, you are not forced to play from it.

 

Second bolded part, if we seek to eliminate bad luck, should we also eliminate good luck so we don't win or lose based on luck?

 

Fair point, but I don't like referring to it as bad luck. It is an alteration of the playing surface due to other players. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by TLUBulldogGolf

[smashdn]

I didn't call it bad luck, I quoted it.

 

I'd call it part of the game.  Honest to goodness divots and hard pan and thin grass or dead grass or tall grass or whatever, they are just different lies.  The measure of a golfer is can he identify the lie, estimate how it will effect the ball-flight, if any, and then get his next shot where he wants it.

 

A divot hole or a soggy spot or grain or rough or whatever are part of the challenge and the fun.  I can hit off perfect lies on the range.  I know one that has mats if I want a really nice lie.

[Titleist84]

3 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

First bolded part, you are not forced to play from it.

 

Second bolded part, if we seek to eliminate bad luck, should we also eliminate good luck so we don't win or lose based on luck?

If you don't want a penalty stroke then yes you have to play from it as the rules are currently stated.

 

I'd like to minimize luck as much as possible.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Titleist84
Added another point

[golfer07840]

16 hours ago, KizIsTheMan said:

I disagree. Golf is all about the elements and adapting to different situations. Before you know it people will be calling trees immovable obstructions.

Tiger once had a boulder removed by fans. 

 

Relief from a divot seems much more reasonable. 

[smashdn]

8 minutes ago, Titleist84 said:

I'd like to minimize luck as much as possible.

TopGolf would work fine for that.   Perfect lies to consistent targets.  It would come down purely to execution.  Done indoors it would eliminate the vagaries of wind and weather as well.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

32 minutes ago, smashdn said:

I didn't call it bad luck, I quoted it.

 

I'd call it part of the game.  Honest to goodness divots and hard pan and thin grass or dead grass or tall grass or whatever, they are just different lies.  The measure of a golfer is can he identify the lie, estimate how it will effect the ball-flight, if any, and then get his next shot where he wants it.

 

A divot hole or a soggy spot or grain or rough or whatever are part of the challenge and the fun.  I can hit off perfect lies on the range.  I know one that has mats if I want a really nice lie.

 

I realize that, I think the person you quoted takes the wrong approach referring to it as bad luck. 

 

Soggy spots will be considered casual water (if wet enough) which is free relief. I don't expect a perfect lie I just think a divot goes well beyond the type of lie you should be expected to play from on the fairway especially, which I'd probably limit any potential rule to. 

 

Mats suck, rather practice off grass 100% of the time. 

 

10 minutes ago, smashdn said:

TopGolf would work fine for that.   Perfect lies to consistent targets.  It would come down purely to execution.  Done indoors it would eliminate the vagaries of wind and weather as well.

 

You know this isn't what they meant. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by TLUBulldogGolf

[Titleist84]

11 hours ago, bobfoster said:

What I can tell you in practice (and I hope you hear me on this), is that the USGA considers this as trivial. It is simply not something they think it is worth their energy, the distance issue is now on the front burner (and they are having a horrid time trying to figure it out ... they have a bunch of options - from standards on clubs, or balls, or courses, none of which are very good. 

 

But it is a big deal right now (especially after The Open). The distance debate (from my emails with my USGA friends) is what they are obsessing about right now. 

 

Totally never meant to demean you, but am pretty reali8stic about golf. And the USGA/R&A just really never thought divots were that important. 

 

But, I'd totally play 18 w/ you dude!

It should not be their top priority but still should be something considered and changed in the rulebook.

 

My mind has been changed on distance however.  Not that it makes courses obsolete, but it is ruining pace of play.  They definitely need to do something there but that's a topic for another thread.

[golfer07840]

13 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

hey man! that’s someone’s wife you’re talking about!

 

[golfer07840]

4 minutes ago, Titleist84 said:

It should not be their top priority but still should be something considered and changed in the rulebook.

 

My mind has been changed on distance however.  Not that it makes courses obsolete, but it is ruining pace of play.  They definitely need to do something there but that's a topic for another thread.

 

Pace of play?? Oh boy. 

[davep043]

3 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Only makes sense in match play. Can you imagine the POP of a 4 ball playing in proper order with stymies? The rabbits would go insane. LOL!

Yeah, I looked as far back as 1920, and the stymie was only involved in match play.  In stroke play, the further player could require the nearer player to either lift his ball, or play first, whichever the nearer player chose.

[Titleist84]

19 minutes ago, golfer07840 said:

 

Pace of play?? Oh boy. 

I don't want to threadjack, dozens of pages in the distance debate threads but yes it becomes a pace of play issue when you have too many driveable par 4's and par 5's that can be reached in 2.  

[golfer07840]

15 minutes ago, Titleist84 said:

I don't want to threadjack, dozens of pages in the distance debate threads but yes it becomes a pace of play issue when you have too many driveable par 4's and par 5's that can be reached in 2.  

For Tour pros? 

 

Who cares? 

 

Certainly not happening where I play. 

[oikos1]

4 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

First bolded part, you are not forced to play from it.

 

Second bolded part, if we seek to eliminate bad luck, should we also eliminate good luck so we don't win or lose based on luck?

The very essence of "free relief" seeks to eliminate bad luck and turn it into good luck.  It already happens in golf.

[oikos1]

Here's a perfect example of a pro with some bad luck knowing a rule and using it to turn it into good luck.  Wow.  Like magic. 🤣

 

"Pro moves ball 10 yards away from tree — thanks to clever use of this rule"

 

https://golf.com/instruction/rules/pro-rules-moves-ball-tree/

[smashdn]

Without the line of sight mlr he wouldn't have had that option.

 

Using the rules is not what I would personally term luck.  I was thinking more like extra 50 yards hitting a path or whacking a sign and it keeping the ball from going ob.  Hitting the stick with a skull. I skulled one off a high tension power line metal support thing the other day and it bounced back onto the green.  Otherwise it was going into the interstate.

 

If the desire is to eliminate bad luck, and we don't want to win by virtue of luck, dont we also need to get rid of good luck too?