TPC hole 17 drop

[DonRSD]

When someone hits the island green and the ball then ricochets / bounces into the water (backspin into water or rolls out into water)......

 

why can’t the player take a drop from the entry into water (basically on the rough : fringe of the green)?

 

anyone have a link to this rule for water around the green and having to replay the shot from the last shot (in this case the tee box on hole 17 or the drop area). 
 

today Byeong Hun An hit from the drop area and the ball spun back into the water....why couldn’t he just drop from where the ball crossed onto the green and the spot where it went into the water?

Edited March 11, 2021 by DonRSD

[nsxguy]

 

9 minutes ago, DonRSD said:

When someone hits the island green and the ball then ricochets / bounces into the water (backspin into water or rolls out into water)......

 

why can’t the player take a drop from the entry into water (basically on the rough : fringe of the green)?

 

anyone have a link to this rule for water around the green and having to replay the shot from the last shot (in this case the tee box on hole 17 or the drop area). 
 

today Byeong Hun An hit from the drop area and the ball spun back into the water....why couldn’t he just drop from where the ball crossed onto the green and the spot where it went into the water?

 

The water surrounding the 17th island green is a YELLOW penalty area.

 

For a yellow penalty area you must face the challenge and cross it again keeping the point it last crossed the PA between you and the hole.

 

OR, as in this case, use a designated drop area.

 

OR, hit again from the place you hit the previous shot.

Edited March 12, 2021 by nsxguy

[DonRSD]

What if a local course does not have a “yellow” or “red” stake/line around a green surrounded by water....where would we play our water shot from that hit land and then rolled into the water?

[nsxguy]

9 minutes ago, DonRSD said:

What if a local course does not have a “yellow” or “red” stake/line around a green surrounded by water....where would we play our water shot from that hit land and then rolled into the water?

 

Find another course.

 

 

Courses should have all penalty areas marked but sadly not all of them do.

 

Generally speaking, yellow PAs are in front of greens and you have to hit back over them keeping the point the ball last crossed the margin of the PA between you and the hole.

 

Red PAs are generally lateral, i.e. to the side of, a fairway. If it rolls in, you still use the point the ball last crossed but in this case you can come to the side of where it last crossed.

 

There can be PAs that have a section of them yellow and a section red, usually in front of and to the side of a green.

 

It then depends on which section the ball crossed as to the places you can drop.

[rogolf]

From the definition of penalty area, "If the colour of a penalty area has not been marked or indicated by the Committee, it is treated as a red penalty area." (my highlight)

However, the penalty area on the 17th at Sawgrass is clearly marked as yellow.

Edited March 12, 2021 by rogolf

[DonRSD]

6 minutes ago, rogolf said:

From the definition of penalty area, "If the colour of a penalty area has not been marked or indicated by the Committee, it is treated as a red penalty area." (my highlight)

However, the penalty area on the 17th at Sawgrass is clearly marked as yellow.

So no markings = red. 
In this case if the ball crossed and then rolls back into the water....drop on the fringe where the ball rolled back into the water?

[rogolf]

3 minutes ago, DonRSD said:

So no markings = red. 
In this case if the ball crossed and then rolls back into the water....drop on the fringe where the ball rolled back into the water?

Within two club-lengths of where it last crossed the edge of the penalty area, no nearer the hole.  Depending on the curvature of the edge of the penalty area and the hole location, there may not be a spot within the permitted two club-lengths that is not nearer the hole.  If that is the case, it's back-on-the-line or stroke and distance (same as yellow).

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, DonRSD said:

What if a local course does not have a “yellow” or “red” stake/line around a green surrounded by water....where would we play our water shot from that hit land and then rolled into the water?

 

If the Committee has failed to mark a body of water as a penalty area the player must treat it as marked with red. The relief for red, at a cost of one penalty stroke, is a) replay, b) back on the line, or c) lateral relief.

[SNIPERBBB]

Wasnt the old rule that unmarked hazards were yellow unless marked otherwise?

[Mr. Bean]

12 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Wasnt the old rule that unmarked hazards were yellow unless marked otherwise?

 

IMO it is best not to try to remember what the Rule was as it is challenging enough to remember what the Rule is.

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[SNIPERBBB]

26 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

IMO it is best not to try to remember what the Rule was as it is challenging enough to remember what the Rule is.

 

True to a point. It helps to understand present confusion if you remember the past. Golf is lucky that the rules don't change often.  Other sports I've either played or officiated change often and knowing the old rules or rules from other ruling bodies is helpful to keep from tearing hair out.

[Mr. Bean]

46 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

True to a point. It helps to understand present confusion if you remember the past. 

 

How far in the past one should remember?

 

Behind every change in the Rules there is logic. It means that when a Rule is changed the logic has been changed. So, when a particular Rule has been changed 4 times the logic has changed 4 times as well. How well do you think you could master all those changes in logic and what would be the benefit?

 

Sure, we learn (or should learn...) from history but from my personal point of view as a referee trying to remember what was before would expose me to false rulings as there is a danger of remembering how the Rule was instead of how the Rule is. We have an unfortunate example of that in the case of Annika Sörenstam just a week or two ago. The referee did not remember that the Rule had changed and made an incorrect ruling. I have decided to try to forget the old Rules as quickly as possible which is far from easy but IMHO pays off.

[SNIPERBBB]

It's more about correcting others than yourself.

[Colin L]

50 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I have decided to try to forget the old Rules as quickly as possible which is far from easy but IMHO pays off.

 

I manage to forget the current Rules rather too quickly and so have no bother forgetting the old.

[DonRSD]

On 3/11/2021 at 8:40 PM, sui generis said:

 

If the Committee has failed to mark a body of water as a penalty area the player must treat it as marked with red. The relief for red, at a cost of one penalty stroke, is a) replay, b) back on the line, or c) lateral relief.

 

 

So if its water right off the green then there is nowhere to drop (I assume) and back to the original place the ball was played?

[Colin L]

47 minutes ago, DonRSD said:

 

 

So if its water right off the green then there is nowhere to drop (I assume) and back to the original place the ball was played?

Or back on the line from the hole through the point where the ball  last crossed the edge of the penalty area

[Sawgrass]

1 hour ago, DonRSD said:

 

 

So if its water right off the green then there is nowhere to drop (I assume) and back to the original place the ball was played?

For a red PA, if you choose lateral relief, all you need to do is find an inch or so of ground outside the PA that's within 2cls of where the ball last crossed the edge and no closer to the hole.  (Don't worry if it's closer to the green, the hole is the only limitation.)

 

That's commonly possible, but may be impossible due to the pin placement/curve of the PA line.  

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

For a red PA, if you choose lateral relief, all you need to do is find an inch or so of ground outside the PA that's within 2cls of where the ball last crossed the edge and no closer to the hole.  (Don't worry if it's closer to the green, the hole is the only limitation.)

 

That's commonly possible, but may be impossible due to the pin placement/curve of the PA line.  

 

This situation  drives me absolutely nutz. And we've had this conversation before here.

 

So just a few minutes ago Charley Hoffman goes for the Par 5 16th at TPC in 2. Hole is back right and he flies it past the pin and into the water.

 

I backed up the Tivo to where it crossed in order to check out the drop later on. Below is the mock up from his birdie putt. Sorry for the image quality - apparently my cell phone doesn't take great pics of a TV screen.

 

 

 

Blue line is the path of the shot (not that it's needed). Small yellow circle is just locating a large-ish blemish in the green which made it easy to "relocate" where the ball crossed. Red X is where the ball last crossed. You can see where he's putting from.

 

Sorry#2 - I moved the blue line to add the yellow circle and forgot to move it back. It should point right to the red X. (Too lazy to redo it )

 

Thoughts ?

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by nsxguy

[Sawgrass]

3 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

This situation  drives me absolutely nutz. And we've had this conversation before here.

 

So just a few minutes ago Charley Hoffman goes for the Par 5 16th at TPC in 2. Hole is back right and he flies it past the pin and into the water.

 

I backed up the Tivo to where it crossed in order to check out the drop later on. Below is the mock up from his birdie putt. Sorry for the image qulaity - apparently my cell phone doesn't take great pics of a TV screen.

 

Blue line is the path of the shot (not that it's needed). Small yellow circle is just locating a large-ish blemish in the green which made it easy to "relocate" where the ball crossed. Red X is where the ball last crossed. You can see where he's putting from.

 

Thoughts ?

 

If your description is accurate, my thought is that there’s possibly an acceptable strip of grass upon which to drop that’s not closer to the hole near the bottom of the picture/near the red line (but surely not where he is standing).

[nsxguy]

4 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

If your description is accurate, my thought is that there’s possibly an acceptable strip of grass upon which to drop that’s not closer to the hole near the bottom of the picture/near the red line (but surely not where he is standing).

 

Agreed although I'm not sure about a tiny strip.

 

And they have high speed slo-mo cameras and everything but even without any video how could he possibly be dropping there, apparently ON the green ?!?!?!

[nsxguy]

And now WESTWOOD.

 

Hits from the pine straw in the right trees into a red PA, ball travels over rough the entire length before going into the PA pretty much directly in front of him and now he's dropping way left onto the fairway apparently(?) nowhere near BOL relief and certainly nowhere near lateral relief.

 

"Old boys club" or is everybody blind ?

[Mr. Bean]

22 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Agreed although I'm not sure about a tiny strip.

 

And they have high speed slo-mo cameras and everything but even without any video how could he possibly be dropping there, apparently ON the green ?!?!?!

 

Dropping on the green is not forbidden if that is within the allowed relief area.

 

Afa the picture is concerned I have long ago stopped trusting the angles any camera shows. So there may be an incorrect drop or then again not.

[nsxguy]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Dropping on the green is not forbidden if that is within the allowed relief area.

 

Afa the picture is concerned I have long ago stopped trusting the angles any camera shows. So there may be an incorrect drop or then again not.

 

Understood. On both counts.

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

And now WESTWOOD.

 

Hits from the pine straw in the right trees into a red PA, ball travels over rough the entire length before going into the PA pretty much directly in front of him and now he's dropping way left onto the fairway apparently(?) nowhere near BOL relief and certainly nowhere near lateral relief.

 

"Old boys club" or is everybody blind ?

Please don't take offence , but you are remembering that the line you go back on is from the hole through where the ball last crossed the edge of the PA, not the line of flight of the ball?

 

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Colin L

[nsxguy]

12 minutes ago, Colin L said:

Please don't take offence , but you are remembering that the line you go back on is from the hole through where the ball last crossed the edge of the PA, not the line of flight of the ball?

 

 

 

No offense taken but yes, I do remember.

 

IMO, and with all due respect to sawgrass' and Bean's observation that it is hard to tell about angles in pictures (and I agree) he appeared to be nowhere near BOL or lateral relief from where his ball last crossed.

 

That said, I admit that the video of Westie taking his next shot did not take in that right rough and/or the pine straw just off of it.

 

But then again, it seems to me that if he HAD dropped in either BOL or lateral I'd have definitely seen the rough. It last crossed FROM the right rough with the fairway nowhere in sight.

 

[Newby]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

And now WESTWOOD.

 

Hits from the pine straw in the right trees into a red PA, ball travels over rough the entire length before going into the PA pretty much directly in front of him and now he's dropping way left onto the fairway apparently(?) nowhere near BOL relief and certainly nowhere near lateral relief.

 

"Old boys club" or is everybody blind ?

Which hole was this?

[nsxguy]

5 minutes ago, Newby said:

Which hole was this?

 

Pretty sure it was the Par 5 2nd.

[Sawgrass]

6 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Pretty sure it was the Par 5 2nd.

That drop looked like a legit BOL drop to me, though I wasn’t intently studying it.  

[rogolf]

42 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

That drop looked like a legit BOL drop to me, though I wasn’t intently studying it.  

Another case of arm-chair viewing versus on-site viewing?  🙃

[nsxguy]

24 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Another case of arm-chair viewing versus on-site viewing?  🙃

 

As I admitted earlier, certainly possible.

 

But below is how I saw it. In the grand scope of things he probably would've made bogey either way however, it seemed to me that where it entered the PA the ground sloped towards the PA and a good drop would've been between the water and the bunker in the rough on a downslope; not as easy as some yards further back and on the fairway so who knows ?

 

TEE SHOT

 

 

 

 

2ND SHOT

 

 

 

 

 

And yes, I have no life !!!