TPC hole 17 drop

[rogolf]

31 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

As I admitted earlier, certainly possible.

 

But below is how I saw it. In the grand scope of things he probably would've made bogey either way however, it seemed to me that where it entered the PA the ground sloped towards the PA and a good drop would've been between the water and the bunker in the rough on a downslope; not as easy as some yards further back and on the fairway so who knows ?

 

TEE SHOT

 

 

 

 

2ND SHOT

 

 

 

 

 

And yes, I have no life !!!

I didn't see it, so can't comment with any knowledge, but how did the second shot travel through all those trees on the straight line that you've drawn?  Regardless, I wasn't on site to view it, and it's done now.

[Newby]

11 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Pretty sure it was the Par 5 2nd.

It looks ok on here. The hole seems well to the right

 

https://www.pgatour.com/competition/2021/the-players-championship/tourcast.html#/hole-view?pid=20396&round=4&cid=011&hole=2&group=36&gv=no

 

Your sequence doesn't show the flag position but I'm sure the referee would have checked it.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Newby

[Colin L]

@nsxguyAt a guess you have probably mistaken where the point of entry was, or where the ball was dropped,  or both.

[nsxguy]

6 hours ago, Newby said:

It looks ok on here. The hole seems well to the right

 

https://www.pgatour.com/competition/2021/the-players-championship/tourcast.html#/hole-view?pid=20396&round=4&cid=011&hole=2&group=36&gv=no

 

Your sequence doesn't show the flag position but I'm sure the referee would have checked it.

 

That Tour Cast thingie is pretty cool. Do they have that for every player and every shot ? Just the leaders ?

 

FWIW I don't recall seeing a referee during the sequence so I'm not sure anyone "checked" it. But given it was the leaders and the tourney's importance I suppose there was one there.

 

Anywho, in the link you posted, apparently if you click on the shot number at the bottom you also get a video. Also very cool. 👍

 

So I'll take 2 pieces then. Shots 2 & 4. At the 9-10 second part of shot 2 you can see where the ball entered, maybe 3 feet from the pine straw. Now, if you look at the "2" within the blue circle, using the center point of that blue circle, it is clearly (IMO) considerably further left of the point of entry according to the video. Note - the video is not from the telecast as on TV we saw the ball entering from Westwood's POV - but they both show the same place (of course).

 

On the picture of the hole itself you can see the bunker curvature over which the ball traveled before entering the PA, part of which, in my mock up, is clearly in line with the POE and the green. 

 

In the video of shot 4, where Westy is hitting from you can't even see that part (the curvature) of the bunker as Westwood is considerably left of it. Google maps has that distance, from POE to where he hit it from as roughly 50 feet. If BOL, no problem, but,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

 

 

 

[Sawgrass]

Here's an article justifying the result, and I'll point out R 1.3b(2) as being a fundamental part of that.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/players-2021-pga-tour-clarifies-lee-westwoods-drop-that-raised-some-eyebrows/ar-BB1ezWt6?li=BBnb7Kz

 

[rogolf]

13 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

That Tour Cast thingie is pretty cool. Do they have that for every player and every shot ? Just the leaders ?

 

FWIW I don't recall seeing a referee during the sequence so I'm not sure anyone "checked" it. But given it was the leaders and the tourney's importance I suppose there was one there.

 

Anywho, in the link you posted, apparently if you click on the shot number at the bottom you also get a video. Also very cool. 👍

 

So I'll take 2 pieces then. Shots 2 & 4. At the 9-10 second part of shot 2 you can see where the ball entered, maybe 3 feet from the pine straw. Now, if you look at the "2" within the blue circle, using the center point of that blue circle, it is clearly (IMO) considerably further left of the point of entry according to the video. Note - the video is not from the telecast as on TV we saw the ball entering from Westwood's POV - but they both show the same place (of course).

 

On the picture of the hole itself you can see the bunker curvature over which the ball traveled before entering the PA, part of which, in my mock up, is clearly in line with the POE and the green. 

 

In the video of shot 4, where Westy is hitting from you can't even see that part (the curvature) of the bunker as Westwood is considerably left of it. Google maps has that distance, from POE to where he hit it from as roughly 50 feet. If BOL, no problem, but,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

 

 

 

Refresh my memory - what point are you trying to make through this discussion?  (BTW, I'm quite certain he took back-on-the-line relief)

[nsxguy]

2 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Refresh my memory - what point are you trying to make through this discussion?  (BTW, I'm quite certain he took back-on-the-line relief)

 

I'm quite certain he dropped in the wrong place.

 

And below is the "confirmation"

 

 

6 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Here's an article justifying the result, and I'll point out R 1.3b(2) as being a fundamental part of that.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/players-2021-pga-tour-clarifies-lee-westwoods-drop-that-raised-some-eyebrows/ar-BB1ezWt6?li=BBnb7Kz

 

 

[rogolf]

7 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I'm quite certain he dropped in the wrong place.

 

And below is the "confirmation"

 

 

 

I don't see any confirmation?  I did see that there was not a Rules issue.

[nsxguy]

49 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I don't see any confirmation?  I did see that there was not a Rules issue.

 

Unlike the Rules, not everything is to be taken literally. Read between the lines my friend.

 

There was a lot more in the article but the below pretty much covers it.

 

"Young said it was not feasible for someone who had seen the broadcast to relay to Westwood what (actually) happened in a timely manner"    (The "(actually)" is mine)

 

“We have taken a look at it and we’re very comfortable that using his reasonable judgement, the evidence he had at the time, he’s fine,”

 

But you're right as usual. There was no Rules issue,,,,,,, per the PGA. 👍

Edited March 15, 2021 by nsxguy

[deadsolid...shank]

3 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I don't see any confirmation?  I did see that there was not a Rules issue.

It really sounded to me like it was an explanation for why he dropped in the wrong spot, without actually saying he dropped in the wrong spot. Giving him the benefit of the doubt by saying he couldn’t see the actual point of entry and that there was no one else around to show him. 
 

Just the impression I got reading it. 

[LeoLeo99]

30 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Unlike the Rules, not everything is to be taken literally. Read between the lines my friend.

 

There was a lot more in the article but the below pretty much covers it.

 

"Young said it was not feasible for someone who had seen the broadcast to relay to Westwood what (actually) happened in a timely manner"    (The "(actually)" is mine)

 

“We have taken a look at it and we’re very comfortable that using his reasonable judgement, the evidence he had at the time, he’s fine,”

 

But you're right, as usual, there was no Rules issue,,,,,,, per the PGA. 👍

 

I saw the same as you.  Told my wife, he's dropping in the wrong place.  He should have dropped in that little strip between the water and the bunker.  

[sui generis]

17 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

 

I saw the same as you.  Told my wife, he's dropping in the wrong place.  He should have dropped in that little strip between the water and the bunker.  

 

She then said to you that you saw the referee and the player do their best on the ground to locate the reference point. Also, she reminded you of R1.3b2 and the necessity of accepting the player's "reasonable judgement." 

 

"Yes, dear, " said Leo. 🙂

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=1&subrulenum=3

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

Unlike the Rules, not everything is to be taken literally. Read between the lines my friend.

 

There was a lot more in the article but the below pretty much covers it.

 

"Young said it was not feasible for someone who had seen the broadcast to relay to Westwood what (actually) happened in a timely manner"    (The "(actually)" is mine)

 

“We have taken a look at it and we’re very comfortable that using his reasonable judgement, the evidence he had at the time, he’s fine,”

 

But you're right as usual. There was no Rules issue,,,,,,, per the PGA. 👍

 

Nsxguy, what are you trying to achieve here? That everyone here would admit there was a breach and no referee nor any player in Westwood's group wanted to act on it? Or are you accusing Westwood of cheating?

 

Or what?

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[LeoLeo99]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Nsxguy, what are you trying to achieve here? That everyone here would admit there was a breach and no referee nor any player in Westwood's group wanted to act on it? Or are you accusing Westwood of cheating?

 

Or what?

 

As far as I know, it's only his ex-wife calling him a cheater.  

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

Unlike the Rules, not everything is to be taken literally. Read between the lines my friend.

 

There was a lot more in the article but the below pretty much covers it.

 

"Young said it was not feasible for someone who had seen the broadcast to relay to Westwood what (actually) happened in a timely manner"    (The "(actually)" is mine)

 

“We have taken a look at it and we’re very comfortable that using his reasonable judgement, the evidence he had at the time, he’s fine,”

 

But you're right as usual. There was no Rules issue,,,,,,, per the PGA. 👍

 

This is getting as tedious and insidiously offensive  as the stuff about Patrick Reed.    How about chilling out over a beer and  watch some football or baseball or hockey or whatever rocks you ..........anything except golf. 

[nsxguy]

27 minutes ago, Colin L said:

 

This is getting as tedious and insidiously offensive  as the stuff about Patrick Reed.    How about chilling out over a beer and  watch some football or baseball or hockey or whatever rocks you ..........anything except golf. 

 

I'm sorry you feel that way. And I can't for the life of me figure out why it's "offensive".

 

But I guess now some of you understand how some others feel when some of you Rulies trying to decide on what the meaning of "is" is.

 

It's over and done with but I don't see an issue with discussing it. But for a while now Ive only been replying to questions, objections and other's posts.

 

I've already said my piece and I've already admitted Westy would've most likely made the same score from a proper drop so the outcome was more likely than not unaffected. And frankly I was hoping he'd win.

 

But for any of you "Rulie" types to object to someone posting pretty clear evidence of an infraction and then chastising somebody for same seems a bit,,,,, well,,,,,, out of character.

 

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go find out why my "weight should be forward on chip shots".

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by nsxguy

[nsxguy]

55 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Nsxguy, what are you trying to achieve here? That everyone here would admit there was a breach and no referee nor any player in Westwood's group wanted to act on it? Or are you accusing Westwood of cheating?

 

Or what?

 

 

Certainly NOT accusing him of cheating. I'm fine with the article and the explanation.

[Sawgrass]

11 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I'm sorry you feel that way. And I can't for the life of me figure out why it's "offensive".

 

But I guess now some of you understand how some others feel when some of you Rulies trying to decide on what the meaning of "is" is.

 

It's over and done with but I don't see an issue with discussing it. But for a while now Ive only been replying to questions, objections and other's posts.

 

I've already said my piece and I've already admitted Westy would've most likely made the same score from a proper drop so the outcome was more likely than not unaffected. And frankly I was hoping he'd win.

 

But for any of you "Rulie" types to object to someone posting pretty clear evidence of an infraction and then chastising somebody for same seems a bit,,,,, well,,,,,, out of character.

 

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go find out why my "weight should be forward on chip shots".

 

 

 

For what it's worth (very little I'm sure) IMO you raised a point of interest and discussed it without rancor.   I read your comments as generally being from one who is trying to understand, not accuse -- though the early comment about "old boys club" in your first post about Westwood may have raised some hackles here.  

 

I suppose that neither fans of Westwood (of which I am one) nor fans of referees (of which I am a lonely one) felt entirely comfortable with that . . .

[nsxguy]

29 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

For what it's worth (very little I'm sure) IMO you raised a point of interest and discussed it without rancor.   I read your comments as generally being from one who is trying to understand, not accuse -- though the early comment about "old boys club" in your first post about Westwood may have raised some hackles here.  

 

I suppose that neither fans of Westwood (of which I am one) nor fans of referees (of which I am a lonely one) felt entirely comfortable with that . . .

 

Thank you saw.

 

If I offended any Brits with "old boys club" I apologize BUT I was NOT referring to Euros or Brits.

 

I was referring to pro golfers in general and their (previous ?) well-known doff of the cap to a fellow competitor for taking what some might consider liberties with drops, etc.

 

e.g. leaving their ball on the green while their buddy is chipping to act as a backstop.

 

So if "old boys club" was an issue to my cross-Atlantic friends, I apologize for not being more clear. 

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

But for any of you "Rulie" types to object to someone posting pretty clear evidence of an infraction and then chastising somebody for same seems a bit,,,,, well,,,,,, out of character.

 

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go find out why my "weight should be forward on chip shots".

 

 

 

The point being that there is no evidence of an infraction, but let's let it be.

The reason I say there was no infraction is the third bullet point in  Rule 1.3b(2):

• So long as the player does what can be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate determination, the player’s reasonable judgment will be accepted even if, after the stroke is made, the determination is shown to be wrong by video evidence or other information.

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Colin L