Relief From Immovable Obstruction

[trilerian]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

On top of the wall??

 

From the picture it is impossible to say anything accurate about the height of the wall, distance of the tree from the wall of thickness of the wall. It is also a bit tricky to say whether that wall is a self-standing or a support to the terrain behind it. Even if it was the latter I would very much doubt that the distance between the ground and top of the wall would be shorter than the distance between the tree and the wall. Especially as you would have to go to the left in order not to go nearer the hole.

 

 

No doubt it is difficult to tell.  But something I would definitely try to measure.  Speaking of measuring, would you incorporate Pythagorean theorem there?  I have never before seen a situation where there was a big vertical component of relief.  Point of fact, the rules illustrate it only horizontally.  Anyway, not sure if it is right or wrong, just something I would consider.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, trilerian said:

 

No doubt it is difficult to tell.  But something I would definitely try to measure.  Speaking of measuring, would you incorporate Pythagorean theorem there?  I have never before seen a situation where there was a big vertical component of relief.  Point of fact, the rules illustrate it only horizontally.  Anyway, not sure if it is right or wrong, just something I would consider.

 

Interpretation 19.2c/1 will give you the answer but to put it short: in this case when the ball is on the ground vertical distance counts. So when measuring the NPCR one needs to include the height of the wall.

 

EDIT: I could not yet find any support to my understanding but IIRC the measuring takes place along the ground (and in this case wall), not through the air. I may be wrong with this one, hopefully someone will correct me if this is the case.

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Colin L]

I'm losing it here.  You are taking relief from interference from the wall.  How could the nearest point of complete relief be on top of the wall, on top of the very  object you are taking relief from?

[limegreengent]

Colin

They are both crackers.

The only certain thing is that there are men in white coats on the way and -

They are taking the SHORTEST or should I say the NEAREST way to get to them.

😂😂🤣😁

[Mr. Bean]

22 minutes ago, Colin L said:

I'm losing it here.  You are taking relief from interference from the wall.  How could the nearest point of complete relief be on top of the wall, on top of the very  object you are taking relief from?

 

I believe he is thinking that the wall is supporting the terrain and on top of the wall the terrain (ground) begins. If that spot is not closer to the hole and is the closest NPCR then it would be ok. Naturally the point would not be on top of the artificial wall but on the ground.

[Newby]

29 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I believe he is thinking that the wall is supporting the terrain and on top of the wall the terrain (ground) begins. If that spot is not closer to the hole and is the closest NPCR then it would be ok. Naturally the point would not be on top of the artificial wall but on the ground.

Do you measure as in A or B?

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Newby

[Mr. Bean]

40 minutes ago, Newby said:

Do you measure as in A or B?

 

 

Well, that is the question. Relief area is measured as A so I figure the distance of the NPCR should be the same but I cannot find anything to back it up. What do you think?

[davep043]

16.1/4 discusses a ball on an elevated portion of an obstruction.  The NPCR is directly below the ball, "vertical distance is disregarded".  Would this same idea be applied in the case we're looking at?

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, davep043 said:

16.1/4 discusses a ball on an elevated portion of an obstruction.  The NPCR is directly below the ball, "vertical distance is disregarded".  Would this same idea be applied in the case we're looking at?

 

No. Check Interpretation 19.2c/1 for guidance as well as 16.1/5.

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Colin L]

10 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I believe he is thinking that the wall is supporting the terrain and on top of the wall the terrain (ground) begins. If that spot is not closer to the hole and is the closest NPCR then it would be ok. Naturally the point would not be on top of the artificial wall but on the ground.

 

I give up.  Trilerian spoke of the NPCR being "on top the the wall". which has only one meaning.  Your mind-reading is obviously better than mine.  

Edited March 25, 2021 by Colin L

[Halebopp]

It took some internet archeology to find it but here's the late Barry Rhodes' blog post about measuring:

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20180904105038/http://www.barryrhodes.com/2010/02/measuring-club-lengths.html

[Newby]

And the Italian original

 

http://www.blogs.regolegolf.com/?p=337

[antip]

2 hours ago, Halebopp said:

It took some internet archeology to find it but here's the late Barry Rhodes' blog post about measuring:

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20180904105038/http://www.barryrhodes.com/2010/02/measuring-club-lengths.html

Well done Hale. I've looked for those but couldn't find them. 

 

To be clear, you can measure through the air.

 

When Barry first published those diagrams he got the seventh one wrong, suggesting it was legitimate (it was an error in the source material from regolegolf (in Italian). I got in touch and pointed out that one was illegitimate - and the current proof of that is the last para of the Relief Area definition. Barry immediately fixed that diagram, affirming that you cannot measure through the ground.

[antip]

13 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Interpretation 19.2c/1 will give you the answer but to put it short: in this case when the ball is on the ground vertical distance counts. So when measuring the NPCR one needs to include the height of the wall.

 

EDIT: I could not yet find any support to my understanding but IIRC the measuring takes place along the ground (and in this case wall), not through the air. I may be wrong with this one, hopefully someone will correct me if this is the case.

 

See the Barry Rhodes page Hale has supplied, it is legitimate to measure through the air. One of those things where the Rules don't explicitly say that, rather they just say what you cannot do - you cannot measure through the ground - but you can measure through a wall, a fence and a tree.

IMO, it is a shame that RBs do not own and publish diagrams that make this information much more accessible.

[Halebopp]

7 minutes ago, Newby said:

And the Italian original

 

http://www.blogs.regolegolf.com/?p=337

 

According to the blog, Rhodes is the original author: "Immagini e testo tratto dal blog di Barry Rhodes, con la sua gentile autorizzazione."

 

[antip]

1 minute ago, Halebopp said:

 

According to the blog, Rhodes is the original author: "Immagini e testo tratto dal blog di Barry Rhodes, con la sua gentile autorizzazione."

 

The original Barry posting/published page identified regolegolf as the source. 

[Halebopp]

1 minute ago, antip said:

The original Barry posting/published page identified regolegolf as the source. 

 

Ah, so it does. Sounds like collaboration to me. 🙂

[Newby]

3 hours ago, Halebopp said:

 

According to the blog, Rhodes is the original author: "Immagini e testo tratto dal blog di Barry Rhodes, con la sua gentile autorizzazione."

 

 Barry's blog says:

"Here are some graphics that I think will help you understand the concepts (with acknowledgements to regolegolf.com)."

Edited March 25, 2021 by Newby

[Newby]

8 minutes ago, antip said:

The original Barry posting/published page identified regolegolf as the source. 

Ask hp, hewill know

Edited March 25, 2021 by Newby

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, Halebopp said:

It took some internet archeology to find it but here's the late Barry Rhodes' blog post about measuring:

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20180904105038/http://www.barryrhodes.com/2010/02/measuring-club-lengths.html

 

So, diagrams 4 and 5 say that the player has two options how to measure the relief area and those options give two different results. Really???

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, antip said:

According to the blog, Rhodes is the original author: "Immagini e testo tratto dal blog di Barry Rhodes, con la sua gentile autorizzazione."

 

The original Barry posting/published page identified regolegolf as the source. 

 

It says 'Pictures and text taken from a blog of Barry Rhodes, with his kind permission'.

 

I wonder where did Regole get those pictures.

[Halebopp]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So, diagrams 4 and 5 say that the player has two options how to measure the relief area and those options give two different results. Really???

 

 

That's how I've understood it to be. Have you signed up for our online meeting next month yet? You could send in questions in the sign-up form, so if you haven't done so yet, you could include this one.

[antip]

45 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

That's how I've understood it to be. Have you signed up for our online meeting next month yet? You could send in questions in the sign-up form, so if you haven't done so yet, you could include this one.

Agree. For a ball on the ground, there is no prescription for how to measure beyond not through the ground. Which is inconsistent with the other 2019 measuring changes where there is only one way to measure a club-length for each player. Simply a matter of detail RBs haven't published on (or possibly even reflected on?).

If I was a National Association, I'd be asking the RBs.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, antip said:

Agree. For a ball on the ground, there is no prescription for how to measure beyond not through the ground. Which is inconsistent with the other 2019 measuring changes where there is only one way to measure a club-length for each player.

 

You don't say...?

[trilerian]

18 hours ago, Colin L said:

I'm losing it here.  You are taking relief from interference from the wall.  How could the nearest point of complete relief be on top of the wall, on top of the very  object you are taking relief from?

Sorry, @Mr. Bean read my mind better, lol.  On top of the wall, then move to the ground which looks to be the same height as the wall.  

[rogolf]

7 minutes ago, trilerian said:

Sorry, @Mr. Bean read my mind better, lol.  On top of the wall, then move to the ground which looks to be the same height as the wall.  

I'm quite sure there is only one nearest point of complete relief, and that's the one the player must use when taking relief.  It's usually very easy to determine the NPCR when you're at the scene!  🙂

[trilerian]

9 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I'm quite sure there is only one nearest point of complete relief, and that's the one the player must use when taking relief.  It's usually very easy to determine the NPCR when you're at the scene!  🙂

 

Most of the time it is easy...  Let's say the ball is resting right up against the wall.  How far back from the wall is npcr? 5', 6'? Depends on the club you are going to use, right?  Well, the wall looks to be made by 4x4's.  Those are really 3.5"*3.5".  It looks to be about 14 high where the ball is laying.  So that is 49".  Add maybe 12" more to go left and you could have npcr.  About 5' total distance.  

[rogolf]

2 minutes ago, trilerian said:

 

Most of the time it is easy...  Let's say the ball is resting right up against the wall.  How far back from the wall is npcr? 5', 6'? Depends on the club you are going to use, right?  Well, the wall looks to be made by 4x4's.  Those are really 3.5"*3.5".  It looks to be about 14 high where the ball is laying.  So that is 49".  Add maybe 12" more to go left and you could have npcr.  About 5' total distance.  

Possible, and you also need to consider complete relief, ie, stance, and no nearer the hole.  Again, very difficult to identify NPCR from that photo.

[rzitup]

33 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I'm quite sure there is only one nearest point of complete relief, and that's the one the player must use when taking relief.  It's usually very easy to determine the NPCR when you're at the scene!  🙂

I didn't read some of the links, so maybe this is specified, but here is an overhead to give context.  Note: the actual well from the ruling is the one behind it, with the three.  Using the one you can see in the overhead, which is the same idea.  

 

If not taking into account the climb up the wall, the line closest relief (blue line) would be the nearest, as opposed to the yellow (what we used).   Similar to taking an unplayable for an identified ball stuck in a tree?

 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, rzitup said:

I didn't read some of the links, so maybe this is specified, but here is an overhead to give context.  Note: the actual well from the ruling is the one behind it, with the three.  Using the one you can see in the overhead, which is the same idea.  

 

If not taking into account the climb up the wall, the line closest relief (blue line) would be the nearest, as opposed to the yellow (what we used).   Similar to taking an unplayable for an identified ball stuck in a tree?

 

 

No, not similar to the tree case as your ball is on the ground, but this picture gives a completely different view as it contains information not available in the first picture.

 

It would still look that coming out of the well is not the actual NPCR but impossible to say without being there and using a measuring tape.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Mr. Bean