Help Me Plan My Scotland II Trip For 2023

[hammergolf]

14 hours ago, El Gringo said:

Of course it's your choice. However, playing the highest ranked courses doesn't necessarily mean you are playing the best or playing courses you may enjoy the most. Tons of courses may not be great, but are highly appealing. Of the courses you listed above Fraserburgh and Crail are examples of lovely courses with some outstanding holes. I would say in their own way they are premium courses that are well known and respected despite a 2nd tier status compared to championship and the handful of other famous/very highly ranked Scottish courses. Scotland has an embarrassing number of cool courses if one is willing to look past the top 30 or whatever rankings. Gullane 3 is one of my favourite Scottish courses and it barely makes the top 100! 

Exactly, many confuse popular for better…

[hammergolf]

8 hours ago, EmperorPenguin said:

I must add here that whichever course I select, it must have an established caddie program.  Because we will be playing for nine consecutive days, the rounds should be the least fatiguing.  Is there a golf course in the top 20 in Scotland that does not have a caddie program?

The majority of courses in the top 50 will have caddie programs. There are soooo many great links courses that due to location are not well known but much better courses than many famous ones. That’s the beauty of people having different things they prioritize in courses. I’ve been fortunate to have played an extensive list of the “famous” courses, but they are not the majority of my “best or my favorite” courses.

 

https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-courses/britain-ireland/scotland?page=6

[EmperorPenguin]

Here is the latest update.  Another one of my guests just bowed out due two conflicting wedding ceremonies he must attend, and I am already seeking replacement candidates.  One of whom I will have dinner this evening and I will give the formal invitation.  I am quite sure he will accept.  This replacement may create one issue. 

 

We are about six months away from departure, and the itineraries have already been set.  As mentioned earlier in the thread, the rogue guest bowed out and I replaced him, and I informed Robin at The Experience to change the guest list.  As far as I know, the changes were successful, even at The Honourable Company.  Now with this new substitution (i.e., a second guest bowing out), I am wary of asking Robin to make another change.  There were no issues when making the first change, but will there be an issue asking for a second change, in particular with The Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers?  The club Notes states specifically that no substitutions will be allowed, and I think they bent the rules once for me already.  I do not think this will be much of an issue with The Links Trust regarding our rounds at St. Andrews, but if any of you know that this will cause any problems please let me know.

 

In the worst case, I think the second substitute will simply pose as the original guest and merely lie about his identity.  I do not think the starter will ask for identification anyway, but I do not like the idea of lying to the staff when we arrive.   It would be an interesting story, though, if we would all get kicked out of Muirfield, but I do not want to chance it.

Edited January 3, 2023 by EmperorPenguin

[Chanceman]

A diabolical problem indeed. Honesty is always the best policy, unless dealing with Nazis or the KGB. Is it not?

[ND2005]

No one asked for identification or our handicap cards at Muirfield 

[mshills]

For clarification -- you are paying for a foursome's trip to Scotland, visiting ten golf courses, and you've had two of the four bail on you already.  Correct?
 

Are these clients or friends or both?  I am grateful to have several life-long friends I love like my own brother, but they can pay their own way when we travel!  🤣

 

My advice is to think carefully about jamming so much in that you miss the overall experience.

 

Either way, take plenty of photos -- a trip like this should be documented for posterity.

[hammergolf]

I think being this far out there shouldn’t be an issue changing a name. I’ve always found most clubs in Scotland and Ireland understanding and helpful. The only course I’ve found not to be that way is Carnoustie. Btw, I never had any course ask for ID when I checked in, and only TOC asked for proof of hdcp.

[njlam]

I am scheduled to play a similar menu of courses in Scotland this summer (late July) and am looking forward to the trip (my first).

 

We have some potential personnel changes, one to to injury, the other due to a participant from last year's Ireland trip being voted off this trip. We have kept our tour operator apprised and he said there is no issue, but wants us to have a firm list when we pay the final bill (60 days before the trip).

 

So I think you  have some time, but you may want to make all your changes at the tour operator level, closer to the dates of the trip.

[scott_Donald]

11 hours ago, njlam said:

I am scheduled to play a similar menu of courses in Scotland this summer (late July) and am looking forward to the trip (my first).

 

We have some potential personnel changes, one to to injury, the other due to a participant from last year's Ireland trip being voted off this trip. We have kept our tour operator apprised and he said there is no issue, but wants us to have a firm list when we pay the final bill (60 days before the trip).

 

So I think you  have some time, but you may want to make all your changes at the tour operator level, closer to the dates of the trip.

 

How does some one get voted off a trip?????

 

Also what courses you guys playing?

 

12 hours ago, hammergolf said:

I think being this far out there shouldn’t be an issue changing a name. I’ve always found most clubs in Scotland and Ireland understanding and helpful. The only course I’ve found not to be that way is Carnoustie. Btw, I never had any course ask for ID when I checked in, and only TOC asked for proof of hdcp.

 

If I look at the tee sheet all it has for a booking is the main 'Booking name +3', not individual names. Right now this far out all it says at a time for May is 'Booked'

[ND2005]

On 1/5/2023 at 3:29 AM, scott_Donald said:

 

How does some one get voted off a trip?????

 

 

It happens...I have 2 people who I have invited/gone on group trips with who are no longer welcome. Bad behavior can really spoil a trip. 

[njlam]

We are starting on the west side with Turnberry/Prestwick/Troon, then going east to North Berwick/Muirfield, then finishing with TOC/Carnoustie. The only one we are really missing is Royal Dornoch.

 

With regards to our personnel changes, there is a real difference between playing one round at your club on a weekend vs a 10-day trip where everyone is living/playing/traveling together.

It is too much money/time to spend on a trip without every opportunity to generate great memories. No one wanted a repeat of Ireland.

 

 

[scott_Donald]

4 hours ago, njlam said:

We are starting on the west side with Turnberry/Prestwick/Troon, then going east to North Berwick/Muirfield, then finishing with TOC/Carnoustie. The only one we are really missing is Royal Dornoch.

 

With regards to our personnel changes, there is a real difference between playing one round at your club on a weekend vs a 10-day trip where everyone is living/playing/traveling together.

It is too much money/time to spend on a trip without every opportunity to generate great memories. No one wanted a repeat of Ireland.

 

 

sounds a great trip.

 

I guess I don’t go enough golf trips to ever experience that! Skiing I have.  It’s easier to avoid individuals whilst skiing though. 

[njlam]

21 minutes ago, scott_Donald said:

I guess I don’t go enough golf trips to ever experience that! Skiing I have.  It’s easier to avoid individuals whilst skiing though. 

 

Insecurity and narcissism are a toxic combination and very recognizable. Our Bandon trip was also noticeably better.

[hammergolf]

9 hours ago, njlam said:

We are starting on the west side with Turnberry/Prestwick/Troon, then going east to North Berwick/Muirfield, then finishing with TOC/Carnoustie. The only one we are really missing is Royal Dornoch.

 

With regards to our personnel changes, there is a real difference between playing one round at your club on a weekend vs a 10-day trip where everyone is living/playing/traveling together.

It is too much money/time to spend on a trip without every opportunity to generate great memories. No one wanted a repeat of Ireland.

 

 

The guys on a trip are the key to it being fun. Fortunately my group are 8 of the lowest maintenance guys around and truly enjoy each other’s company. I’ve been on other trips with different groups where one or two guys ruin it for everyone.

[EmperorPenguin]

On 1/4/2023 at 6:43 AM, mshills said:

For clarification -- you are paying for a foursome's trip to Scotland, visiting ten golf courses, and you've had two of the four bail on you already.  Correct?
 

Are these clients or friends or both?  I am grateful to have several life-long friends I love like my own brother, but they can pay their own way when we travel!  🤣

 

My advice is to think carefully about jamming so much in that you miss the overall experience.

 

Either way, take plenty of photos -- a trip like this should be documented for posterity.

Yes, the two guests who bowed out are friends.  The first one is the rogue guest whose wife is trying to dominate the trip as a shared experience involving her family.  The buck stopped with me and I said not at my expense, and because the rogue guest could not save up for the follow group, he bowed out.  The second one is a close friend who regretfully bowed out because he has two weddings to attend.  I already replaced the rogue guest, and I think he is a great addition to the group.

 

The most recent invitee I had dinner with, and during dinner I decided on the last minute not to invite him because he is nursing his 90-year-old mother and I do not think he will be able to leave her for ten or so days.  I have another candidate in mind.

 

I do believe that it is vital to be selective when considering guests.  Will he be a great addition to the group so we will all have a fun time, or will it be a mistake to invite him?  This is a vital question because the least you want is friction within the group.  Considering that I am hosting my guests, they better behave or else I simply will not invite them again.

[stanford88]

I think this is an incredible system and I enjoy reading about this experience. 

[hammergolf]

3 hours ago, EmperorPenguin said:

Yes, the two guests who bowed out are friends.  The first one is the rogue guest whose wife is trying to dominate the trip as a shared experience involving her family.  The buck stopped with me and I said not at my expense, and because the rogue guest could not save up for the follow group, he bowed out.  The second one is a close friend who regretfully bowed out because he has two weddings to attend.  I already replaced the rogue guest, and I think he is a great addition to the group.

 

The most recent invitee I had dinner with, and during dinner I decided on the last minute not to invite him because he is nursing his 90-year-old mother and I do not think he will be able to leave her for ten or so days.  I have another candidate in mind.

 

I do believe that it is vital to be selective when considering guests.  Will he be a great addition to the group so we will all have a fun time, or will it be a mistake to invite him?  This is a vital question because the least you want is friction within the group.  Considering that I am hosting my guests, they better behave or else I simply will not invite them again.

Exactly, the last thing you want on a golf trip is drama of any type.

[scott_Donald]

4 hours ago, EmperorPenguin said:

Yes, the two guests who bowed out are friends.  The first one is the rogue guest whose wife is trying to dominate the trip as a shared experience involving her family.  The buck stopped with me and I said not at my expense, and because the rogue guest could not save up for the follow group, he bowed out.  The second one is a close friend who regretfully bowed out because he has two weddings to attend.  I already replaced the rogue guest, and I think he is a great addition to the group.

 

The most recent invitee I had dinner with, and during dinner I decided on the last minute not to invite him because he is nursing his 90-year-old mother and I do not think he will be able to leave her for ten or so days.  I have another candidate in mind.

 

I do believe that it is vital to be selective when considering guests.  Will he be a great addition to the group so we will all have a fun time, or will it be a mistake to invite him?  This is a vital question because the least you want is friction within the group.  Considering that I am hosting my guests, they better behave or else I simply will not invite them again.

if all else fails, I am already in Scotland!

[philsRHman]

On 1/3/2023 at 11:09 AM, EmperorPenguin said:

Here is the latest update.  Another one of my guests just bowed out due two conflicting wedding ceremonies he must attend, and I am already seeking replacement candidates.  One of whom I will have dinner this evening and I will give the formal invitation.  I am quite sure he will accept.  This replacement may create one issue. 

 

We are about six months away from departure, and the itineraries have already been set.  As mentioned earlier in the thread, the rogue guest bowed out and I replaced him, and I informed Robin at The Experience to change the guest list.  As far as I know, the changes were successful, even at The Honourable Company.  Now with this new substitution (i.e., a second guest bowing out), I am wary of asking Robin to make another change.  There were no issues when making the first change, but will there be an issue asking for a second change, in particular with The Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers?  The club Notes states specifically that no substitutions will be allowed, and I think they bent the rules once for me already.  I do not think this will be much of an issue with The Links Trust regarding our rounds at St. Andrews, but if any of you know that this will cause any problems please let me know.

 

In the worst case, I think the second substitute will simply pose as the original guest and merely lie about his identity.  I do not think the starter will ask for identification anyway, but I do not like the idea of lying to the staff when we arrive.   It would be an interesting story, though, if we would all get kicked out of Muirfield, but I do not want to chance it.

Bro, with the coin you’re spreading around, and the premium you’re paying for a tour operator, I wouldn’t sweat it. Even doing my trip solo and working directly with club secretaries I found them to be extraordinarily accommodating and friendly, even at Muirfield. 

[hammergolf]

1 hour ago, philsRHman said:

Bro, with the coin you’re spreading around, and the premium you’re paying for a tour operator, I wouldn’t sweat it. Even doing my trip solo and working directly with club secretaries I found them to be extraordinarily accommodating and friendly, even at Muirfield. 

Completely agree. The only course I’ve ever had an issue with was Carnoustie. Every other course I’ve contacted or played have all been very helpful and friendly.

[philsRHman]

12 hours ago, hammergolf said:

Completely agree. The only course I’ve ever had an issue with was Carnoustie. Every other course I’ve contacted or played have all been very helpful and friendly.

Actually i concur with this. Carnoustie offered a disinterested, distant and even standoffish attitude and reception you’d expect here from an impersonal, corporate owned resort in the states. 

Edited January 13, 2023 by philsRHman

[EmperorPenguin]

I am reading a common theme here, that the membership and staff are more snooty at Carnasty than at The Honourable Company.  Makes me feel glad that I skipped that course in the Scotland I trip three years ago.  My attitude is to play that course just for the sake of playing it, and to see how hard those finishing holes are.

 

One rule I will establish when playing there will be that for our match there (every day will be fourballs), when reaching Hole 6 we must all hit our tee shots down Hogan's Alley, and that will be the tiebreaker of that hole.  For example, if me and my partner halve the hole with our opponents, but they got both their tee shots between the bunker and OB left (Hogan's Alley) and we only got one, they win that hole.  Of course, nothing trumps an outright win, but the team that had the better result at Hogan's Alley wins that hole in the event the hole is halved.  My guests think this is a great idea.

[EmperorPenguin]

Another thing I must add is that the newest prospective invitee may not have a passport because I do not think he has even traveled internationally before.  I cannot remember what the turnaround times are to obtain a new passport, but I recall that the US Passport application process has been delayed due to covid.  I am aware that new applicants can pay more for an expedited process, but maybe even that will be delayed?  

[hammergolf]

3 hours ago, EmperorPenguin said:

I am reading a common theme here, that the membership and staff are more snooty at Carnasty than at The Honourable Company.  Makes me feel glad that I skipped that course in the Scotland I trip three years ago.  My attitude is to play that course just for the sake of playing it, and to see how hard those finishing holes are.

 

One rule I will establish when playing there will be that for our match there (every day will be fourballs), when reaching Hole 6 we must all hit our tee shots down Hogan's Alley, and that will be the tiebreaker of that hole.  For example, if me and my partner halve the hole with our opponents, but they got both their tee shots between the bunker and OB left (Hogan's Alley) and we only got one, they win that hole.  Of course, nothing trumps an outright win, but the team that had the better result at Hogan's Alley wins that hole in the event the hole is halved.  My guests think this is a great idea.

We did the same thing on #6. The thing about Carnoustie that is cool that you don’t notice until after your round, is it gets progressively a little bit tougher each hole. By the time you get to 15 you strap in because the last 4 are among the toughest collection of finishing holes in golf anywhere. It’s a great course with really strong finishing holes, but it won’t be the warmest welcome you’ll receive in Scotland, and god forbid you need some flexibility with your tee time because you’ll be S.O.L.

[hammergolf]

3 hours ago, EmperorPenguin said:

Another thing I must add is that the newest prospective invitee may not have a passport because I do not think he has even traveled internationally before.  I cannot remember what the turnaround times are to obtain a new passport, but I recall that the US Passport application process has been delayed due to covid.  I am aware that new applicants can pay more for an expedited process, but maybe even that will be delayed?  

The secret to getting a passport quicker is to go to a rural Post Office that do them. They will get an appointment much faster, which had been the cause of the delay during Covid. My Niece just got hers in 4 weeks from appointment to delivery.

[tad950]

On 1/3/2023 at 8:09 AM, EmperorPenguin said:

Here is the latest update.  Another one of my guests just bowed out due two conflicting wedding ceremonies he must attend, and I am already seeking replacement candidates.  One of whom I will have dinner this evening and I will give the formal invitation.  I am quite sure he will accept.  This replacement may create one issue. 

 

We are about six months away from departure, and the itineraries have already been set.  As mentioned earlier in the thread, the rogue guest bowed out and I replaced him, and I informed Robin at The Experience to change the guest list.  As far as I know, the changes were successful, even at The Honourable Company.  Now with this new substitution (i.e., a second guest bowing out), I am wary of asking Robin to make another change.  There were no issues when making the first change, but will there be an issue asking for a second change, in particular with The Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers?  The club Notes states specifically that no substitutions will be allowed, and I think they bent the rules once for me already.  I do not think this will be much of an issue with The Links Trust regarding our rounds at St. Andrews, but if any of you know that this will cause any problems please let me know.

 

In the worst case, I think the second substitute will simply pose as the original guest and merely lie about his identity.  I do not think the starter will ask for identification anyway, but I do not like the idea of lying to the staff when we arrive.   It would be an interesting story, though, if we would all get kicked out of Muirfield, but I do not want to chance it.

Our golf association has used the Experience a few times. And there’s never been a problem with a player change. Robin has always been very accommodating with personal requests. You are after all paying a pretty penny for their service.  If your group is large enough to have a full time rep from the Experience, hopefully it will be Jo. She’s great.
 

We played Carnoustie in June 2022. I don’t remember anyone there being snooty. Starter, caddies, bag staff all great. The golf shop was more than happy to take our merchandise money. You might want to ask how much damage there was to the course because of the flood they experienced a few months back.

 

We had a last minute change at Muirfield. And it was not a problem. I think the only time I was asked for my name was at the bar, in order to settle up after lunch. We were treated very well there, also. Remember, visitors are a cash cow for the club, so they’re not going to treat us like the dregs of society. Take your hat of inside. And no phone use inside, and you should be good. 

[scott_Donald]

5 hours ago, tad950 said:

We had a last minute change at Muirfield. And it was not a problem. I think the only time I was asked for my name was at the bar, in order to settle up after lunch. We were treated very well there, also. Remember, visitors are a cash cow for the club, so they’re not going to treat us like the dregs of society. Take your hat of inside. And no phone use inside, and you should be good. 

 

Exactly. visitors subsidise fees, I love playing a world class course and not pay too much to do it! I don't feel bad not playing from December until March 1(dreaded mats) on the course at all as I don't feel I am wasting money. 

 

No hats indoors is the one that gets me all the time, even when walking out the changing room to the course I get asked by members of staff to remove mine!

[EmperorPenguin]

I always take my cap off indoors.  I never forget the first time I was called out on it at Monterey Peninsula CC twenty years ago.  I was so embarrassed.  The man I will be inviting, he always wears his cap indoors when we go out to dinner, maybe to hide his impending shiny dome, but I will definitely have a talk with him about that because considering what he's gaining (airfare, hotel, transportation, golf and caddies) as an esteemed guest of the Emperor, he better do as I ask!

[EmperorPenguin]

8 hours ago, tad950 said:

Our golf association has used the Experience a few times. And there’s never been a problem with a player change. Robin has always been very accommodating with personal requests. You are after all paying a pretty penny for their service.  If your group is large enough to have a full time rep from the Experience, hopefully it will be Jo. She’s great.

Robin and everyone at The Experience were so good to me last time that I came back for repeat business.  Our group was only four, but unlike the prepackaged Programmes they had on their website, we had a custom package, which is the same as the upcoming trip.  We have been assigned Ian for our upcoming trip, so hopefully he will be as good as Jo.  The Experience also assigned us Malcolm, who greeted us when we arrived at every course and to brief us on protocols, which we appreciated.  Most of all, we loved our assigned shuttle driver, Colin The Bruce, who had the best jokes for us while driving between venues.

[tad950]

35 minutes ago, EmperorPenguin said:

I always take my cap off indoors.  I never forget the first time I was called out on it at Monterey Peninsula CC twenty years ago.  I was so embarrassed.  The man I will be inviting, he always wears his cap indoors when we go out to dinner, maybe to hide his impending shiny dome, but I will definitely have a talk with him about that because considering what he's gaining (airfare, hotel, transportation, golf and caddies) as an esteemed guest of the Emperor, he better do as I ask!

Muirfield did allow an exception for one of the guys in our group. He fell down the stairs at the Marine the very morning we were to play Muirfield. He missed his tee time, but managed to make it to the club for lunch. So rather than having us look at the gash on his head while we were trying to eat lunch, they allowed him to wear his Titleist cap. I don’t think being bald is a good enough reason😄