Time allowed on putted ball

[Greenie]

Today my buddy and I were playing and at times the wind would gust. On hole two I had a 20 ft putt that rolled up to the edge of the cup. As I was walking towards my ball a gust of wind came up from behind and the ball dropped in the hole. Neither of us had an issue with the ball dropping in.

 

On hole 15 I had about a 10 ft down hill putt. I putted the ball and the same thing happened with the ball hanging on the edge of the cup. Now I made a comment come on wind and started walking towards my ball. My buddy says I'll give that to you, runs up and hits it towards me. At the same time a big gust of wind from behind comes up. I asked him what he was doing and his reply was we don't have all day. I feel he only did this because of what happened on the other hole and I feel positive the ball would have dropped with the gust of wind as I was walking towards my ball. I also told him I was walking towards my ball so I wasn't taking all day. 

 

So what is the ruling? I ask because it was out of character for him to give a putt and hit it towards me. He is a must putt everything out guy. How long do I have to get to my ball and mark or putt it?

[2bGood]

The rules give you 'reasonable time' to reach the hole plus 10 seconds. 

 

So unless you really did linger more than a reasonable time waiting for the wind you were okay. 

 

Kind of a grey line as it must be known or virtually certain he deliberately  deflect your ball, but if he did here are the rules that apply. 

 

Match play the penalty for your buddy hitting your ball (before time was up) would be loss of hole. 

 

For stroke play see rule 11.3. - a 2 stroke penalty for you buddy for deliberately deflecting a ball in motion. You replace the ball where it would have come to rest. 

 

This is a pretty speculative situation though all these rules may or may not apply and granular details of what happen matter (only you have those)

Edited April 25, 2021 by 2bGood

[Greenie]

Thanks, I really wasn't waiting for the wind. I putted the ball and made a reaction to the putt hanging on the edge. I said come on wind and starting walking towards my ball.

I told my friend he didn't allow me time to get to my ball and in this case I felt he should be penalized for hitting my ball away from the hole. It's a friendly game but we always take care of our own putts. We both like to putt the ball in the hole. 

[Colin L]

@Greenie

2bGood is right to be cautious regarding the "granular" details.   The most important detail being whether the ball was overhanging the hole.  That would be a matter of fact to be determined:  it either was or it wasn't.  The outcomes are different:

a)  Ball comes to rest very close to but not overhanging the hole and is knocked away. 

In match play, your opponent has conceded your next stroke.  

In stroke play, the other player gets no penalty and you replace your ball without penalty.

b) Ball is overhanging the hole and is knocked away within waiting time

 Rule 13.3b applies.  In match play, it's not loss of hole. You are deemed to have holed out  with the previous stroke.  In other words, you get the benefit of what might have happened (ball falling into the hole within the prescribed time) but the hole is not necessarily finished.  That depends on how your opponent lies.

In stroke play, the other player gets a 2 stroke penalty and you replace your ball on the lip of the hole.  There is no further "waiting time" however, and so there's no point in hopefully placing the ball to overhang the hole.

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by Colin L

[antip]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

The rules give you 'reasonable time' to reach the hole plus 10 seconds. 

 

So unless you really did linger more than a reasonable time waiting for the wind you were okay. 

 

Kind of a grey line as it must be known or virtually certain he deliberately  deflect your ball, but if he did here are the rules that apply. 

 

Match play the penalty for your buddy hitting your ball (before time was up) would be loss of hole. 

 

For stroke play see rule 11.3. - a 2 stroke penalty for you buddy for deliberately deflecting a ball in motion. You replace the ball where it would have come to rest. 

 

This is a pretty speculative situation though all these rules may or may not apply and granular details of what happen matter (only you have those)

If the ball was overhanging the hole (as suggested), the moved ball is not "replace the ball where it would have come to rest", it is replace on the lip per 13.3b.

[oikos1]

Apparently he doesn't putt everything out. 

 

In match play you can concede a stroke, hole, or match, at anytime.  Returning the ball is perfectly acceptable.

 

In stroke play, I was taught to never touch your opponents ball.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by oikos1

[Greenie]

Thanks everyone.

 

The ball had come to rest. It did appear to be hanging over the hole but from behind I couldn't tell for sure how much. I did feel with the gust of wind from behind would have sunk it but who knows. I felt from his actions and being out of character for him he had an idea that it might fall as the previous one did so he hurried up to my ball and knocked it towards me. I'm sure if the ball was an inch from the hole he would have never done that. He was on the opposite side waiting to putt so I would have walked up and took care of my ball had it been farther away from the hole. Playing with someone for over 30 yrs you know how they act.

 

@oikos1

Yes he does putt everything out. I putt everything out. He is actually the one that is a stickler on that.  And yes we don't touch the other persons ball. This is why it was out of character for him. And to say we haven't got all day as I was walking to my ball was his excuse I believe for doing it. 

[oikos1]

2 minutes ago, Greenie said:

Thanks everyone.

 

The ball had come to rest. It did appear to be hanging over the hole but from behind I couldn't tell for sure how much. I did feel with the gust of wind from behind would have sunk it but who knows. I felt from his actions and being out of character for him he had an idea that it might fall as the previous one did so he hurried up to my ball and knocked it towards me. I'm sure if the ball was an inch from the hole he would have never done that. He was on the opposite side waiting to putt so I would have walked up and took care of my ball had it been farther away from the hole. Playing with someone for over 30 yrs you know how they act.

 

@oikos1

Yes he does putt everything out. I putt everything out. He is actually the one that is a stickler on that.  And yes we don't touch the other persons ball. This is why it was out of character for him. And to say we haven't got all day as I was walking to my ball was his excuse I believe for doing it. 

Based on the facts you provided, he clearly did not expect to putt everything out that day and gave you a putt.  That ship has sailed...😁

[Greenie]

Yea 17 out of 18 holes we putted everything out. I appreciate him letting me slide on an 1/2" putt. I might have missed it. The other putt that stopped on the lip and fell as I was walking to the hole he was standing at the flag and was laughing about it. Never bothered to give me that one. I guess he knew better the next time.

 

I was curious on the time limit and it has been answered. I thought it was 30 seconds. I told him I thought he got a 2 stroke penalty for it and I got to replace my ball. 

 

Thank you all and thank you Colin L. 

 

Interesting to read that it matters if it is hanging over the hole or not.

[grm24]

So I'll be that guy. Your friend acted like a huge richard cranium when he knocked your ball away from the hole when the wind may have helped you on the greens for a 2nd time. Playing stroke play he should never touch another competitors ball. 

[antip]

53 minutes ago, grm24 said:

So I'll be that guy. Your friend acted like a huge richard cranium when he knocked your ball away from the hole when the wind may have helped you on the greens for a 2nd time. Playing stroke play he should never touch another competitors ball. 

Yep, with friends like that......

[Mr. Bean]

8 hours ago, oikos1 said:

 

In stroke play, I was taught to never touch your opponents ball.

 

I was taught that in stroke play I have no opponents.

[Greenie]

4 hours ago, antip said:

Yep, with friends like that......

It's ok guys.

 

There used to be 30 of us that played together back in our 30's- 40's. We all talked about how it would be when we all could retire and play golf all the time together. One by one quit playing for various reasons. In our mid 50's it was 5 of us left playing. We are in our 60's now and it is just the 2 of us playing. 

 

He has his faults and so do I. Golf is about fun for us because we are what we are.

 

It isn't about shooting one stroke less for me as it is enjoying the fun of having another putt hang on the edge and maybe fall in as the other one did. I felt he took the chance away from me. 

 

We do try and follow the rules and I will bring up the issue next time we play and the incident will be forgotten. We did discuss what rules were broken as to what we thought they were. Now I'll be able to tell him.

 

Sometimes we will get into a rules debate and this was another case. Last time out we had a rules issue and I was sure of the rule and I told him he was wrong and he had no problem accepting what I said because I said I was sure of the ruling.

 

I don't want it to sound like we are rule sticklers because we are not. We do try and play by the rules.

[2bGood]

9 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Apparently he doesn't putt everything out. 

 

In match play you can concede a stroke, hole, or match, at anytime.  Returning the ball is perfectly acceptable.

 

In stroke play, I was taught to never touch your opponents ball.

 

 

 

 

 

You can concede a hole, or match at anytime, but there are special rules around conceding strokes when a ball in motion for match play. 

 

You must let the ball come to rest of the current stroke before making the concession if that ball has reasonable chance of being holed.  If you don't you lose the hole.

 

However if an opponent’s ball in motion that is deliberately deflected or stopped at a time when there is no reasonable chance it can be holed, and when done either as a concession or when the ball needed to be holed to tie the hole, is covered by Rule 3.2a(1) or 3.2b(1), not by this Rule. 

 

[oikos1]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

I was taught that in stroke play I have no opponents.

Lol.  I'm sure professional players on the PGA Tour think the same way.  Hilarious.

[nsxguy]

53 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Lol.  I'm sure professional players on the PGA Tour think the same way.  Hilarious.

 

Mr. Bean was being pedantic [fellow competitors]

[2bGood]

55 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Lol.  I'm sure professional players on the PGA Tour think the same way.  Hilarious.

You clearly do not know the ROG. 

 

From the current rules:

 

Opponent

The person a player competes against in a match. The term opponent applies only in match play.

Edited April 25, 2021 by 2bGood

[oikos1]

2 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

You clearly do not know the ROG. 

 

From the current rules:

 

Opponent

The person a player competes against in a match. The term opponent applies only in match play.

Perhaps I do not clearly know the ROG (wouldn't be the only one around here), and perhaps you lack in reading comprehension.  I said "think" the same way. 

[2bGood]

4 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Mr. Bean was being pedantic [fellow competitors]

FYI the 2019 rules eliminated this term. It is now 'player'.

 

[Mr. Bean]

5 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Mr. Bean was being pedantic [fellow competitors]

 

This is the Rules section is it not?

 

Btw, in the Rules of Golf there is no such term as fellow competitor.

[nsxguy]

10 hours ago, Greenie said:

Yea 17 out of 18 holes we putted everything out. I appreciate him letting me slide on an 1/2" putt. I might have missed it. The other putt that stopped on the lip and fell as I was walking to the hole he was standing at the flag and was laughing about it. Never bothered to give me that one. I guess he knew better the next time.

 

I was curious on the time limit and it has been answered. I thought it was 30 seconds. I told him I thought he got a 2 stroke penalty for it and I got to replace my ball. 

 

Thank you all and thank you Colin L. 

 

Interesting to read that it matters if it is hanging over the hole or not.

 

Firstly let me say it is reallllllly weird that a guy you've been playing with for sooooooo long would do that intentionally. I mean, in a friendly match, if it were *I*, I'd just laugh and say "Not AGAIN" and just stand there and wait for it to drop,,,,, AGAIN.

 

But that turns out to be the key here.

 

Seems to me that with your buddy knocking the ball back to you without letting you see the "status" of the ball, he should have been penalized by your ball being considered holed with that same shot.

 

I see a lot of our esteemed referee types here quoting rules but I don't see an opinion.

 

Refs ? Our OP calls you over before teeing off on the next hole. Ruling ?

[rogolf]

Let's look at Rule 3.2b to clarify ideas about concessions,

 

(1) Player May Concede Stroke, Hole or Match. A player may concede the opponent's next stroke, a hole or the match:

• Conceding Next Stroke. This is allowed any time before the opponent's next stroke is made.
  • The opponent has then completed the hole with a score that includes that conceded stroke, and the ball may be removed by anyone.
  • A concession made while the opponent's ball is still in motion after the previous stroke applies to the opponent's next stroke, unless the ball is holed (in which case the concession does not matter).
  • The player may concede the opponent's next stroke by deflecting or stopping the opponent's ball in motion only if that is done specifically to concede the next stroke and only when there is no reasonable chance the ball can be holed.
• Conceding a Hole. This is allowed any time before the hole is completed (see Rule 6.5), including before the players start the hole.
• Conceding the Match. This is allowed any time before the result of the match is decided (see Rules 3.2a(3) and (4)), including before the players start the match.

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, oikos1 said:

Perhaps I do not clearly know the ROG (wouldn't be the only one around here), and perhaps you lack in reading comprehension.  I said "think" the same way. 

 

We know that your strength is not in the Rules, no need to explain.

[nsxguy]

Ya think I'd know better by now (obviously I do not)

[oikos1]

21 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

You can concede a hole, or match at anytime, but there are special rules around conceding strokes when a ball in motion for match play. 

 

You must let the ball come to rest of the current stroke before making the concession if that ball has reasonable chance of being holed.  If you don't you lose the hole.

 

However if an opponent’s ball in motion that is deliberately deflected or stopped at a time when there is no reasonable chance it can be holed, and when done either as a concession or when the ball needed to be holed to tie the hole, is covered by Rule 3.2a(1) or 3.2b(1), not by this Rule. 

 

Was the ball still in motion?  Apparently his opponent/fellow competitor/playing partner/good buddy believed the ball did not have "a reasonable" chance.  Unless some, including perhaps the OP, are suggesting his "intent" was to stop the ball from going in the hole, and thereby potentially changing the outcome of the hole and possibly the match.  At that point, I would think it would have to go to "The Committee" or head pro as accusations of deliberate cheating are a serious charge.🤣🤣🤣

 

So if match play, no penalty.  Stroke play is outlined in the rules as has been provided.

_______________

 

"I putted the ball and the same thing happened with the ball hanging on the edge of the cup."

"Yea 17 out of 18 holes we putted everything out. I appreciate him letting me slide on an 1/2" putt. I might have missed it."

 

With new information provided by the OP, I wouldn't consider "1/2 inch" to be hanging on the cup (which I would measure in a straight line from the edge of the cup to the front tip of the ball, maybe some measure differently) .  This really is just another example of the "subjectivity" and "intent" of the rules of golf unless, after conceding a stroke after believing the ball had come to rest, one is penalized for touching their opponents ball after the hole has been conceded. 

[oikos1]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

We know that your strength is not in the Rules, no need to explain.

Touche'.  As subjective as they are and as dynamic as they game of golf is, that's why they are always changing.

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

I was taught that in stroke play I have no opponents.

 

11 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

FYI the 2019 rules eliminated this term. It is now 'player'.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

This is the Rules section is it not?

 

Btw, in the Rules of Golf there is no such term as fellow competitor.

 

ALL true but you did mention the way you were TAUGHT, yes ?

 

(I suppose I'm allowed to be a bit pedantic too, yes ? Then again, it is possible to BE a "bit" pedantic ?   )

[nsxguy]

13 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Was the ball still in motion?  Apparently his opponent/fellow competitor/playing partner/good buddy believed the ball did not have "a reasonable" chance.  Unless some, including perhaps the OP, are suggesting his "intent" was to stop the ball from going in the hole, and thereby potentially changing the outcome of the hole and possibly the match.  At that point, I would think it would have to go to "The Committee" or head pro as accusations of deliberate cheating are a serious charge.🤣🤣🤣

 

So if match play, no penalty.  Stroke play is outlined in the rules as has been provided.

_______________

 

"I putted the ball and the same thing happened with the ball hanging on the edge of the cup."

"Yea 17 out of 18 holes we putted everything out. I appreciate him letting me slide on an 1/2" putt. I might have missed it."

 

With new information provided by the OP, I wouldn't consider "1/2 inch" to be hanging on the cup (which I would measure in a straight line from the edge of the cup to the front tip of the ball, maybe some measure differently) .  This really is just another example of the "subjectivity" and "intent" of the rules of golf unless, after conceding a stroke after believing the ball had come to rest, one is penalized for touching their opponents ball after the hole has been conceded. 

 

11 hours ago, Greenie said:

Thanks everyone.

 

The ball had come to rest. It did appear to be hanging over the hole but from behind I couldn't tell for sure how much. I did feel with the gust of wind from behind would have sunk it but who knows. I felt from his actions and being out of character for him he had an idea that it might fall as the previous one did so he hurried up to my ball and knocked it towards me. I'm sure if the ball was an inch from the hole he would have never done that. He was on the opposite side waiting to putt so I would have walked up and took care of my ball had it been farther away from the hole. Playing with someone for over 30 yrs you know how they act.

 

@oikos1

Yes he does putt everything out. I putt everything out. He is actually the one that is a stickler on that.  And yes we don't touch the other persons ball. This is why it was out of character for him. And to say we haven't got all day as I was walking to my ball was his excuse I believe for doing it. 

 

Sorry ?

[oikos1]

4 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Sorry ?

?

[oikos1]

28 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

You clearly do not know the ROG. 

 

From the current rules:

 

Opponent

The person a player competes against in a match. The term opponent applies only in match play.

I've been searching for the "rule" that penalizes me for thinking of my playing partners as "opponents" in stroke play, or requires me to think of my opponents as playing partners in stroke play. Hmmmmm.