Soft Cap Movement

[rzitup]

Does anyone have a better understanding of the movement while in soft cap, outside of the basics here: https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/5 8 Limit on Upward Movement of a Handicap.htm

 

I emailed the USGA for more info, and they just redirected me back to this page.

 

My question revolves around the downward movement while under a soft cap.  If you read the specifics from the USGA, it says;

"When a calculated Handicap Index increase is greater than 3.0 strokes, the value above 3.0 strokes is restricted to 50% of the increase."

and

"There is no limit on the amount by which a player’s Handicap Index can decrease."

 

I understand the first part, but I am having issues with the second.  It seems that, if there is no limit on the downward movement, it must be using some type of stored value what isnt visible.  

 

Quick example (this has happened multiple times to me);

I am a 12.6 index.  I post a score of 82, 9.9 differential. This should take me down .5.  But it only took me down .3.  

This has happened to me at least three times, where I thought I would be dropping more than I did.  This has happened to someone else I play with as well.

 

This leads me to believe that they are taking it down the full amount, but maybe not off of the current index, and instead some stored index?

[Sawgrass]

I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking, but let me say that the “cap” restricts upward movement of your index, and ignores downward movement. 
 

I trust the limited downward movement you observed was based on “normal” calculation issues, such as (perhaps) your having lost a low score 21 rounds ago when the new score bumped it. 

[Halebopp]

Like Sawgrass said, you must've lost a good differential from your calculations.

 

If your 9.9 differential was supposed to drop your handicap by 5.0 strokes, your 8th best differential must've been 13.9 but because it dropped by only 0.3, a differential of 12.3 must've been your 20th latest differential and it fell off the calculations altogether.

[Newby]

43 minutes ago, rzitup said:

Does anyone have a better understanding of the movement while in soft cap, outside of the basics here: https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/5 8 Limit on Upward Movement of a Handicap.htm

 

I emailed the USGA for more info, and they just redirected me back to this page.

 

My question revolves around the downward movement while under a soft cap.  If you read the specifics from the USGA, it says;

"When a calculated Handicap Index increase is greater than 3.0 strokes, the value above 3.0 strokes is restricted to 50% of the increase."

and

"There is no limit on the amount by which a player’s Handicap Index can decrease."

 

I understand the first part, but I am having issues with the second.  It seems that, if there is no limit on the downward movement, it must be using some type of stored value what isnt visible.  

 

Quick example (this has happened multiple times to me);

I am a 12.6 index.  I post a score of 82, 9.9 differential. This should take me down .5.  But it only took me down .3.  

This has happened to me at least three times, where I thought I would be dropping more than I did.  This has happened to someone else I play with as well.

 

This leads me to believe that they are taking it down the full amount, but maybe not off of the current index, and instead some stored index?

Were any of your best 8 the oldest of the last 20 at the time you played? 

 

Why do you say it should have reduced you by 0.5? What were your best 8 differentials before you returned the 82?

[rzitup]

17 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

Like Sawgrass said, you must've lost a good differential from your calculations.

 

If your 9.9 differential was supposed to drop your handicap by 5.0 strokes, your 8th best differential must've been 13.9 but because it dropped by only 0.3, a differential of 12.3 must've been your 20th latest differential and it fell off the calculations altogether.

 

Thats the thing, it didnt.  The score that fell off was not a top 8 score.  The downward movement, while in a softcap, is not 100% from the current index.  

 

See the attached.  On the left was my last 20 on Friday.  I was a 12.6 (that is a soft cap #).  On the right is after the round yesterday.  I am now a 12.3.  

 

If you just take the last 20 as they lie, do the calculations (no soft cap), I would be a 13 on the left, 12.5 on the right.  That means that the 9.9 was a .5 difference.  But I only went from 12.6 to a 12.3 after that round.

[Halebopp]

5 minutes ago, rzitup said:

 

Thats the thing, it didnt.  The score that fell off was not a top 8 score.  The downward movement, while in a softcap, is not 100% from the current index.  

 

See the attached.  On the left was my last 20 on Friday.  I was a 12.6 (that is a soft cap #).  On the right is after the round yesterday.  I am now a 12.3.  

 

If you just take the last 20 as they lie, do the calculations (no soft cap), I would be a 13 on the left, 12.5 on the right.  That means that the 9.9 was a .5 difference.  But I only went from 12.6 to a 12.3 after that round.

 

What's your Low Handicap Index? My next guess is you're in the soft cap territory at the moment, throttling back all movement by 50%.

[rzitup]

Just now, Halebopp said:

 

What's your Low Handicap Index? My next guess is you're in the soft cap territory at the moment, throttling back all movement by 50%.

That is correct, I am in softcap.  Low Index is a 9.0.

The 50% throttle isnt the issue, I am trying to understand why the 100% downward movement isnt actually happening.  

[Halebopp]

Just now, rzitup said:

That is correct, I am in softcap.  Low Index is a 9.0.

The 50% throttle isnt the issue, I am trying to understand why the 100% downward movement isnt actually happening.  

 

What 100% downward movement? The WHS Handicap Index doesn't "move" anywhere, as it's not an incremental system. It's merely recalculated every time a new score is entered into the system and anything over 9.0 + 3.0 = 12.0 is throttled back by 50%.

 

Your uncapped Index would be 12.525 but you hit the Soft Cap limit at 9.0 + 3.0 = 12.0 and what goes over that is halved so, 12.525 - 12.0 = 0.525. 0.525/2 = 0.2625 = 0.3... 12.0 + 0.3 = 12.3.

[rzitup]

11 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

What 100% downward movement? The WHS Handicap Index doesn't "move" anywhere, as it's not an incremental system. It's merely recalculated every time a new score is entered into the system and anything over 9.0 + 3.0 = 12.0 is throttled back by 50%.

 

Your uncapped Index would be 12.525 but you hit the Soft Cap limit at 9.0 + 3.0 = 12.0 and what goes over that is halved so, 12.525 - 12.0 = 0.525. 0.525/2 = 0.2625 = 0.3... 12.0 + 0.3 = 12.3.

 

Ok, I think this is the answer I was looking for.  Instead of moving down off of the current index, you use the soft cap (X +3), figure out the current non soft cap index, and then just add half.  Thanks!

[Colin L]

3 hours ago, rzitup said:

 

Ok, I think this is the answer I was looking for.  Instead of moving down off of the current index, you use the soft cap (X +3), figure out the current non soft cap index, and then just add half.  Thanks!

Yes. Forget the idea of movement up or down; don't try to work out a new handicap index on the basis of what the previous one was;  instead,  treat the addition of a new score simply as the basis of a new calculation.  It could result in a higher index, a lower index or no change at all and you cannot predict what will happen solely from the new score differential.

 

In the case you describe, the new average of your best 8 differentials is 12.6 which is 3.6  higher than your Low Handicap Index of  9.0.  The first 3 strokes of that difference are counted in full giving you 12.0 and any further strokes up to 5 above your LHI are counted as 50%.   50% of 0.6 is 0.3 giving you a new handicap index of 12.3.  

Edited May 3, 2021 by Colin L

[Quasimoto]

Something seems to be messed up in this system.

More than 2 years ago (4)  I was a nine, didn’t play and enter scores for a year.

Last year I played and entered at least 120 scores. This year so far over 20, of which the top 8 are counted.

But they are still using a years old 9 as the basis for the upward movement.

Sounds like the low limit is a lifetime designation from which all future scores are based.

[rogolf]

26 minutes ago, Quasimoto said:

Something seems to be messed up in this system.

More than 2 years ago (4)  I was a nine, didn’t play and enter scores for a year.

Last year I played and entered at least 120 scores. This year so far over 20, of which the top 8 are counted.

But they are still using a years old 9 as the basis for the upward movement.

Sounds like the low limit is a lifetime designation from which all future scores are based.

From the WHS handicap manual definitions:

Low Handicap Index

The lowest Handicap Index achieved by a player during the 365-day period (one year) preceding the day on which the most recent score on their scoring record was played (see Rule 5.7 Low Handicap Index).

[Quasimoto]

28 minutes ago, rogolf said:

From the WHS handicap manual definitions:

Low Handicap Index

The lowest Handicap Index achieved by a player during the 365-day period (one year) preceding the day on which the most recent score on their scoring record was played (see Rule 5.7 Low Handicap Index).

Well, like I said, it is not showing up that way on Golf Canada.

I checked mine yesterday while entering a score and the calculation still shows my low is 9 - more than several years old.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Quasimoto said:

Well, like I said, it is not showing up that way on Golf Canada.

I checked mine yesterday while entering a score and the calculation still shows my low is 9 - more than several years old.

Then I would suggest that you contact Golf Canada and ask the appropriate questions.  I'm sure that they have a question service on their site.

[jvincent]

10 hours ago, Quasimoto said:

Well, like I said, it is not showing up that way on Golf Canada.

I checked mine yesterday while entering a score and the calculation still shows my low is 9 - more than several years old.

That's surprising.

 

I'm in Canada as well and when we switched over to the WHS last year everyone's handicap was reset on Jan 1 and I know that I don't have any history visible before Jan 1 of last year.

 

In the app it actually pops up a message that says the history is not available prior to Jan 2020.

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, jvincent said:

That's surprising.

 

I'm in Canada as well and when we switched over to the WHS last year everyone's handicap was reset on Jan 1 and I know that I don't have any history visible before Jan 1 of last year.

 

In the app it actually pops up a message that says the history is not available prior to Jan 2020.

Also in Canada, and I can see score history well beyond Jan 2020.  Mind you, I'm not using the app, but my desktop.

[jvincent]

15 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Also in Canada, and I can see score history well beyond Jan 2020.  Mind you, I'm not using the app, but my desktop.

 

Score history goes back past Jan 2020 but not handicap history.

 

Edit: At least for me it doesn't.

Edited May 3, 2021 by jvincent

[rogolf]

59 minutes ago, jvincent said:

 

Score history goes back past Jan 2020 but not handicap history.

 

Edit: At least for me it doesn't.

Ahh, see that now; same for me, nothing earlier than Dec 31, 2019 in handicap history.

[Quasimoto]

8 hours ago, jvincent said:

That's surprising.

 

I'm in Canada as well and when we switched over to the WHS last year everyone's handicap was reset on Jan 1 and I know that I don't have any history visible before Jan 1 of last year.

 

In the app it actually pops up a message that says the history is not available prior to Jan 2020.

History not available, mine was wiped out as well. But I had 2020 season with +120 rounds and it still shows the low as a historical value.

[Quasimoto]

If I make it to the Alberta Amateur 🤣🤣; I’ll contact GC. Other than that It won’t matter. It is simply just another computer system frustration.

[jvincent]

48 minutes ago, Quasimoto said:

History not available, mine was wiped out as well. But I had 2020 season with +120 rounds and it still shows the low as a historical value.

If you have no history then it's really odd that your minimum is a value pre-2020.

 

You should definitely shoot Golf Canada an email.

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Quasimoto said:

History not available, mine was wiped out as well. But I had 2020 season with +120 rounds and it still shows the low as a historical value.

 

The GHIN site (USA of course) has a tab for "Stats" and under it gives one's scoring history, with several sub-tabs under it (2020 scores, 2021 scores, revision scores, etc.).

 

It also has a tab for "Handicap History" which, no doubt for purposes of soft and hard caps, begins exactly 1 year ago. That is how one knows the handicap index to use for any application of today's index calculation of soft or hard caps.

 

Doesn't the Golf Canada site have such tabs ? I mean that's the only way you can check.

 

Perhaps exactly 1 year ago you WERE a "9" ?

[Quasimoto]

Not according to the stats from 2020.

Started as a 10.5 for the year, def did not go to 9, just went up to 14.

 

[nsxguy]

7 minutes ago, Quasimoto said:

Not according to the stats from 2020.

Started as a 10.5 for the year, def did not go to 9, just went up to 14.

 

 

You said earlier your history from 2020 was wiped out. So it actually IS there ?

 

The point isn't where you were when you started 2020 (and yes, I see you did say you'd never gotten to 9), the point is exactly 1 year ago, 5/3/20.

 

I guess your "Handicap History" If you have such a tab, doesn't have a score for 5/3/20 (or very close to it).

 

But as jvincent(?) said, if your "Low Handicap Index" says "9" and you can't find that "9" index in the last 365 days in your Handicap History you should probably shoot an email to the association and ask them what's up.

[jlbos83]

On 5/2/2021 at 2:00 PM, rzitup said:

Does anyone have a better understanding of the movement while in soft cap, outside of the basics here: https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/5 8 Limit on Upward Movement of a Handicap.htm

 

I emailed the USGA for more info, and they just redirected me back to this page.

 

My question revolves around the downward movement while under a soft cap.  If you read the specifics from the USGA, it says;

"When a calculated Handicap Index increase is greater than 3.0 strokes, the value above 3.0 strokes is restricted to 50% of the increase."

and

"There is no limit on the amount by which a player’s Handicap Index can decrease."

 

I understand the first part, but I am having issues with the second.  It seems that, if there is no limit on the downward movement, it must be using some type of stored value what isnt visible.  

 

Quick example (this has happened multiple times to me);

I am a 12.6 index.  I post a score of 82, 9.9 differential. This should take me down .5.  But it only took me down .3.  

This has happened to me at least three times, where I thought I would be dropping more than I did.  This has happened to someone else I play with as well.

 

This leads me to believe that they are taking it down the full amount, but maybe not off of the current index, and instead some stored index?

I believe the statement "There is no limit on the amount by which a player’s Handicap Index can decrease."  is not meant to apply while you are in "soft cap land".  I believe you index is always calculated as normal, if the result is more than three over your lowest index in the last year the adjusted index is only adjusted up by 3 plus half the remainder, up to 5.  Each time their is an adjustment the process is repeated, it is calculated as normal, then adjusted.  The line "There is no limit on the amount by which a player’s Handicap Index can decrease." is only meant to say you are allowed to get as good as you want, but not as bad as you can!

[Dave Murphy]

I have just discovered that this is happening to me also. I have asked the Irish Golfing Union to explain. The R & A state that the soft cap should apply only to upward moving handicaps. I simply cannot understand why the soft cap would restrict a downward movement in my handicap. I practice to improve and that is reflected in my HI moving down, It is really demotivating to see that my good play is being penalised by restricting my HI improvement. I would be astonished if that were the original intention and I think it is that the system implementation is flawed.

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, Dave Murphy said:

I have just discovered that this is happening to me also. I have asked the Irish Golfing Union to explain. The R & A state that the soft cap should apply only to upward moving handicaps. I simply cannot understand why the soft cap would restrict a downward movement in my handicap. I practice to improve and that is reflected in my HI moving down, It is really demotivating to see that my good play is being penalised by restricting my HI improvement. I would be astonished if that were the original intention and I think it is that the system implementation is flawed.

 

Seems you have the same, or similar, problem as the OP. Once his numbers came out the process was explained.

 

The soft cap does not apply to downward movement.

 

Check out Halebopp's post (8th in the thread) for the likely(?) explanation.

 

Post your index as of exactly 1 year ago. That number is probably somewhere on your record.

 

Then post your last 20 differentials BEFORE the most recent one.

 

Then post your latest one.