PayPal friends and family

[Chief Illiniwek]

I know that usually this is a bad subject here but I’m on the opposite side of the coin...

 

I have a piece of farm equipment that I wanted to sell for cash and pickup, but a guy from a couple states away emailed me and wants to buy it. He seems legit. Not offering a cashiers check or anything. But he offered to pay with PayPal and I said it appears they charge 2.9% per transaction which would eat into my net a good bit. He then offered friends and family. I’m honest and 100% not looking to scam him. 
 

I guess what I’m asking is what do I need to watch out for with friends and family? Do I need to make sure anything “clears” or he doesn’t rescind payment or anything before I send the package? Appreciate your knowledge and replies. I’ve used PayPal through eBay before but not in this capacity so just want to be careful.

[JaNelson38]

Just dont do it.  You lose any protections via PayPal should there be any issues with the transaction.  

 

If the 2.9% transaction fee is a bother for you, and you dont want to risk losing a cashiers check, have him wire you the money.  You'll probably have to pay a small transaction fee like $25 or something to your bank, but it won't be 2.9% of the transaction.

[Chief Illiniwek]

Not arguing with you, I’m a total rookie with this, but what protections do I lose?

[Abh159]

11 minutes ago, Chief Illiniwek said:

Not arguing with you, I’m a total rookie with this, but what protections do I lose?

 

The short answer is that with F&F you pretty much forgo any seller protections. So if something happens during the transaction you have no leg to stand on regarding any disputes. Specific to you... this is directly from PayPal's website regarding seller protections (which you won't have with F&F).

 

PayPal's Seller Protection program may apply when a buyer claims that:

• They did not authorize, or benefit from, funds sent from their PayPal account (referred to as an “Unauthorized Transaction” claim), and the Unauthorized Transaction occurs in an environment hosted by Paypal; or
• They didn't receive the item from you (referred to as an “Item Not Received” claim).

 

 

[JaNelson38]

1 hour ago, Chief Illiniwek said:

Not arguing with you, I’m a total rookie with this, but what protections do I lose?

 

The biggest thing would be shipping or condition related situations.  If you end up shipping the item, the person could claim they didn't get the item or the item was damaged, and you'd probably be screwed.

 

If its anything of value or any significant amount of money, which it sounds like it is, just do a bank wire transaction.  You'll get your money the same day or next day, and then can control the situation with regards to how the item is shipped/picked up, etc.   I would also suggest making the other person actually come and pick up the item or set up the shipping themselves, so as soon as the item leaves your property on a truck, you are no longer liable for any issues.  Kind of an "sold in as-is condition" that an auction would have.  

Edited May 11, 2021 by JaNelson38

[Radeon962]

Actually, as the seller, F&F means that the buyer is sending you funds with no strings attached for lack of a better way to say it.  The buyer is taking all of the risk with no recourse if anything goes south.

 

The buyer has no recourse as F&F is to be used exactly for that and why there are no fees associated with it.  

 

Buyer can’t file a claim for any reason as once they send funds via F&F they give up those rights.

 

F&F is often requested from scammers as once you make payment via F&F the seller has no obligation (morally they do, but technically they don’t) to produce anything.  
 

However, PayPal can freeze the funds and/or your account if they suspect you are trying to get around the fees associated with Goods & Services so be wary of that.
 

From some Googling:

 

If you send somebody money Friends and Family, and you’re expecting to get something delivered, and that “thing” does not get delivered; there’s nothing you can do about it!  

You cannot file a dispute.  The policies state this clear.  That’s not what this type of payment is intended to be used for.

Even if you did receive your item, and PayPal found out that you’re doing this, they could close your account and kick you off the platform because it’s against their policies and procedures.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Radeon962

[third-times-a-charm]

1 hour ago, Radeon962 said:

Actually, as the seller, F&F means that the buyer is sending you funds with no strings attached for lack of a better way to say it.  The buyer is taking all of the risk with no recourse if anything goes south.

 

The buyer has no recourse as F&F is to be used exactly for that and why there are no fees associated with it.  

 

Buyer can’t file a claim for any reason as once they send funds via F&F they give up those rights.

 

F&F is often requested from scammers as once you make payment via F&F the seller has no obligation (morally they do, but technically they don’t) to produce anything.  
 

However, PayPal can freeze the funds and/or your account if they suspect you are trying to get around the fees associated with Goods & Services so be wary of that.
 

From some Googling:

 

If you send somebody money Friends and Family, and you’re expecting to get something delivered, and that “thing” does not get delivered; there’s nothing you can do about it!  

You cannot file a dispute.  The policies state this clear.  That’s not what this type of payment is intended to be used for.

Even if you did receive your item, and PayPal found out that you’re doing this, they could close your account and kick you off the platform because it’s against their policies and procedures.

 

 

 

As I mentioned in previous threads - I have seen F&F transactions reversed by PayPal and I've seen sellers who have taken in F&F funds have them removed from their account, and then go negative, and then owe paypal the money.

[straightshot7]

3 hours ago, JaNelson38 said:

Just dont do it.  You lose any protections via PayPal should there be any issues with the transaction.  

 

If the 2.9% transaction fee is a bother for you, and you dont want to risk losing a cashiers check, have him wire you the money.  You'll probably have to pay a small transaction fee like $25 or something to your bank, but it won't be 2.9% of the transaction.

and what protections exist when using a wire transfer?

[SubaruWRX]

On all the shooting sports forums I’ve used, they almost always use F&F. I’ve bought and sold on them and it was always F&F or Zelle. And these items were $900-$4500. This is the only forum I use where it is a rule NOT to request F&F. 
 
As a seller, the only risk I could see is if you accept money from a hacked account. Then the persons bank would do a chargeback once it was reported. 

 
I guess if I were selling a really really expensive item, I’d accept F&F and just ask the buyer to send a pic of their drivers license so I could match the PP account name to their ID. Someone hacking an account wouldn’t have the ID to match. 

[Radeon962]

PayPal has carte blanche to do most anything they see is in their best interest and not so much what may be in your best interest.

 

They provide the service and make the rules in their favor and you agree to all of it when you sign up and use their service.

Most likely the F&F transactions that have been reversed is because PayPal found out the parties of the deal were trying to get around the fees.  

Much like eBay, they both don’t like if you try and negotiate a deal using them while bypassing their fee structure.

 

 

[Chief Illiniwek]

Appreciate all the input everyone, going to go with wiring the money.

[blink3665]

4 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

and what protections exist when using a wire transfer?

 

Once a wire transfer has been conducted, there is zero way to get the money back. So as a seller, if he receives a wire transfer, there is no way that the buyer can get the money back.

 

That's why one of the favorite ways to scam people is by having them initiate a wire transfer.

[Skhacker]

How about cash in person in a public area? Our city has a designated spot for this outside the police station. It is intended for any purchase, big or small. 

[straightshot7]

6 hours ago, blink3665 said:

 

Once a wire transfer has been conducted, there is zero way to get the money back. So as a seller, if he receives a wire transfer, there is no way that the buyer can get the money back.

 

That's why one of the favorite ways to scam people is by having them initiate a wire transfer.

yeah that’s why I questioned why a wire transfer was suggested as an improvement to PayPal friends and family. 
 

neither one offers protection. 

[D0ch0l1d4y]

10 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

yeah that’s why I questioned why a wire transfer was suggested as an improvement to PayPal friends and family. 
 

neither one offers protection. 

 

Paypal has the autonomy to reverse or confiscate the money if they deem the transaction isn't in accordance with their written policies.

 

A wire transfer is a transaction between two federally regulated institutions.

[straightshot7]

1 hour ago, D0ch0l1d4y said:

 

Paypal has the autonomy to reverse or confiscate the money if they deem the transaction isn't in accordance with their written policies.

 

A wire transfer is a transaction between two federally regulated institutions.

Okay...

 

in reality we know that when it is he said, she said, PayPal doesn’t do anything to protect anyone when it is a Friends and Family transaction.

 

they sometimes don’t even get the resolution correct when it is Goods and Services payment. 

Your bank isn’t going to go to bat for you after a wire transfer, either. 
 

I was responding to someone who said PayPal Friends and Family doesn’t offer protection, and then suggested a wire transfer.

 

my point was, neither option offers significant protection to buyer or seller.

 

If you want protection, use PayPal Goods and Services or an escrow account or something.

 

otherwise, you may as well use Cash, Venmo, PayPal friends and family, or wire transfer. It makes no difference. 

 

[blink3665]

2 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

Okay...

 

in reality we know that when it is he said, she said, PayPal doesn’t do anything to protect anyone when it is a Friends and Family transaction.

 

they sometimes don’t even get the resolution correct when it is Goods and Services payment. 

Your bank isn’t going to go to bat for you after a wire transfer, either. 
 

I was responding to someone who said PayPal Friends and Family doesn’t offer protection, and then suggested a wire transfer.

 

my point was, neither option offers significant protection to buyer or seller.

 

If you want protection, use PayPal Goods and Services or an escrow account or something.

 

otherwise, you may as well use Cash, Venmo, PayPal friends and family, or wire transfer. It makes no difference. 

 

 

Wire transfers will protect the seller. It wont protect the buyer.

 

Like you said, Paypal has the ability to pull funds back, even on a FnF transaction. So a seller could still end up getting screwed.

 

With a wire transfer, since there is no ability to pull funds back, the seller is 100% protected since they will have the money. You dont need your bank to go to bat for you (if you're a seller). "Bling, Blang, Blaow. I got your money now.".  Now as a buyer? I'd only use a wire transfer for a transaction I was 100& sure on, because once you send the money, you're correct, no one will go to bat for you.

[blackngold_blood]

I’m not an expert here but I believe PayPal F&F can be sent with a CC and then the transaction can be disputed and pulled straight out of the sellers PP account if the CC company says so.  I’m sure I have read about this somewhere as a scam buyers pull. 

[llewol007]

I have used it many a times. If you are the one providing the item for sale and he is the one transferring cash, he has more to lose. There is no protection on his end if he sends it via friends and family. Paypal looks at the transaction as if you are handing money over directly. It has never bit me in the behind and offering in private offering with some of the dealings that I have done. With newbies, no way. All on you. 

[third-times-a-charm]

On 5/12/2021 at 7:08 PM, blackngold_blood said:

I’m not an expert here but I believe PayPal F&F can be sent with a CC and then the transaction can be disputed and pulled straight out of the sellers PP account if the CC company says so.  I’m sure I have read about this somewhere as a scam buyers pull. 

 

Not 100% true. 99% of the time when a CC company sees a paypal charge, they will instruct you to go through paypal first before they initiate anything.

[larciel]

you can pay F&F with a CC but the BUYER will pay the fee. so yeah, no one will pay using cc.