GOATs

[dcfas]

All this discussion of Phil has me wondering about the greatest of all time. If we list the top 20 golfers ever, who makes it? (I searched and guess this question has been posted here but couldn’t find it.) Wondering how far down you put Phil, if he is even in your top 20?

 

Here is my list: 

1. Jack

2. Tiger

3. Bobby Jones

4. Walter Hagen

5. Sam Snead

6. Ben Hogan

7. Arnold Palmer

8. Gary Player

9. Byron Nelson

10. Gene Sarazen

 

These are typical choices for top ten, perhaps, many based upon tradition. It gets more interesting from 11-20.

 

11. Lee Travino

12. Tom Watson

13. Seve Ballesteros

14. Billy Casper

15. Nick Faldo 

16. Phil Mickelson

17. Johnny Miller

18. Raymond Floyd

19. Hale Irwin

20. Ernie Els

There are so many greats not on my list. Great golfers from both the last and the present could be added. This is a list of men, of course. I haven’t done extensive research on the stats,  but I did try to keep in mind number of wins, majors, and impact upon the golfing world and general public. Finally, there are many “greats” in the present that just don’t have the years in to make it to my list. Obviously, the list above is fluid. 

Edited May 29, 2021 by dcfas

[PJE]

Good list; sometimes I struggle with placing Jones and Hagen because they were from a radically different era but it is true they were great. 
I’d probably move Mickelsen up to 11 or 12. The oldest major winner, although a recent accomplishment, is impressive. 
I would drop Irwin and Miller for Cary Middlecoff (39 Tour wins, 10th all time and 3 majors) and Greg Norman (20 Tour wins, 14 European Tour wins and two Open Championships).
Norman is kind of a d - k and he might be better known for his star crossed results in the majors but he really, really excelled for a long time. In comparison Miller had 25 Tour wins, 2 European Tour titles and 2 majors. 
Miller went through a period where he was better than even Jack but it was a flash in the pan compared to Norman’s sustained excellence. 

[Gsea]

No such thing as Goats it is Goat, can't have a more than one GOAT.

[bekgolf]

I'd have Harry Vardon on there somewhere.  Don't know where though.  6 British Opens and one US Open is impressive.

[dcfas]

Seems like we should have a list for post 2000 golf. Top ten.

[iBanesto]

[ChrisL52188]

There is only one GOAT... And that is Jack Nicklaus. Until someone surpasses his record... Which isn't happening. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by ChrisL52188

[PJE]

21 minutes ago, dcfas said:

Seems like we should have a list for post 2000 golf. Top ten.

1. Tiger Woods
2. Phil Mickelson
3. Rory Mcilroy
4. Dustin Johnson
5. Ernie Els
6. Vijay Singh
7. Sergio Garcia
8. Jordan Spieth
9. Brooks Koepka
10. Adam Scott ?

It gets tough after 5 or 6...?

[bscinstnct]

 

[cdnglf]

Weird, you spelled Tiger wrong.

And then on the very next line you spelled Jack wrong.

[cdnglf]

1 hour ago, PJE said:

1. Tiger Woods
2. Phil Mickelson
3. Rory Mcilroy
4. Dustin Johnson
5. Ernie Els
6. Vijay Singh
7. Sergio Garcia
8. Jordan Spieth
9. Brooks Koepka
10. Adam Scott ?

It gets tough after 5 or 6...?

Is this Wayne Gretzky’s burner account?

[cdnglf]

On 5/29/2021 at 2:06 PM, dcfas said:

All this discussion of Phil has me wondering about the greatest of all time. If we list the top 20 golfers ever, who makes it? (I searched and guess this question has been posted here but couldn’t find it.) Wondering how far down you put Phil, if he is even in your top 20?

 

Here is my list: 

1. Jack

2. Tiger

3. Bobby Jones

4. Walter Hagen

5. Sam Snead

6. Ben Hogan

7. Arnold Palmer

8. Gary Player

9. Byron Nelson

10. Gene Sarazen

 

These are typical choices for top ten, perhaps, many based upon tradition. It gets more interesting from 11-20.

 

11. Lee Travino

12. Tom Watson

13. Seve Ballesteros

14. Billy Casper

15. Nick Faldo 

16. Phil Mickelson

17. Johnny Miller

18. Raymond Floyd

19. Hale Irwin

20. Ernie Els

There are so many greats not on my list. Great golfers from both the last and the present could be added. This is a list of men, of course. I haven’t done extensive research on the stats,  but I did try to keep in mind number of wins, majors, and impact upon the golfing world and general public. Finally, there are many “greats” in the present that just don’t have the years in to make it to my list. Obviously, the list above is fluid. 

Weird, you spelled Tiger wrong.

And then on the very next line you spelled Jack wrong.

[bscinstnct]

46 minutes ago, cdnglf said:

 

Weird, you spelled Tiger wrong.

And then on the very next line you spelled Jack wrong.

 

🤣

 

Look, with Phils win, he’s just outside Arnie, Snead, Watson, and Palmer. Sucks that he couldn’t have won any of those T2 US Opens but even without them, for me, he’s just about as good as those guys. So close but just quite not as strong. 

 

Gary Player you gotta give props, guy was a bulldog, 9 majors, grand slam, different league.

 

But, tellin ya, I’d rank Phil right up there with anybody outside of TW, Jack, Hogan, Player. 
 

And Jones, Hagen, Sarazen, Nelson, and the rest of the  really old timers, it’s just too long ago. 

[Obee]

1 hour ago, cdnglf said:

 

Weird, you spelled Tiger wrong.

And then on the very next line you spelled Jack wrong.

 

Yup. 100%.

[tw_focus]

1. TW, without a doubt. The debate starts at 2.

[Shilgy]

Why is it every time I see a top players list in golf I’m reminded of The Sixth Sense?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9GNkCHknGs

[tiderider]

11 hours ago, PJE said:

1. Tiger Woods
2. Phil Mickelson
3. Rory Mcilroy
4. Dustin Johnson
5. Ernie Els
6. Vijay Singh
7. Sergio Garcia
8. Jordan Spieth
9. Brooks Koepka
10. Adam Scott ?

It gets tough after 5 or 6...?

?? ... you have DJ two spots ahead of someone with more majors and more total wins ... and Vijay did it against Tiger and Phil ... what about DJ's career stands out to you, above Vijay's career? ... 

Edited June 2, 2021 by tiderider

[tiderider]

On 5/29/2021 at 3:06 PM, dcfas said:

All this discussion of Phil has me wondering about the greatest of all time. If we list the top 20 golfers ever, who makes it? (I searched and guess this question has been posted here but couldn’t find it.) Wondering how far down you put Phil, if he is even in your top 20?

 

Here is my list: 

1. Jack

2. Tiger

3. Bobby Jones

4. Walter Hagen

5. Sam Snead

6. Ben Hogan

7. Arnold Palmer

8. Gary Player

9. Byron Nelson

10. Gene Sarazen

 

These are typical choices for top ten, perhaps, many based upon tradition. It gets more interesting from 11-20.

 

11. Lee Travino

12. Tom Watson

13. Seve Ballesteros

14. Billy Casper

15. Nick Faldo 

16. Phil Mickelson

17. Johnny Miller

18. Raymond Floyd

19. Hale Irwin

20. Ernie Els

There are so many greats not on my list. Great golfers from both the last and the present could be added. This is a list of men, of course. I haven’t done extensive research on the stats,  but I did try to keep in mind number of wins, majors, and impact upon the golfing world and general public. Finally, there are many “greats” in the present that just don’t have the years in to make it to my list. Obviously, the list above is fluid. 

??  ... casper's usually forgotten about, but he's got 3 majors/51 wins to phil's 6/45 ... 

[Righty to Lefty]

From an unbiased scientific view and I quote my college exercise science instructor.  " So long as athletes continue to be injected into a sport and continue to get bigger, faster, and stronger, the greatest to play any sport is playing right now...unless that athlete was a physical outlier and this is true no matter the sport." He then proceeded to explain and prove it over the course of the entire semester.  I was skeptical at first but then by the end of it I understood fully.  

 

When you think about it everything about any  given sport has continued to advance and progress forward from generation to generation and until that progress flatlines then the GOAT is playing every sport right now.  That can be said because athletes are clearly bigger, faster, and stronger than ever. That being true it is more and more difficult to be dominant among today's athletes then it was even a generation ago. The simplest measure of the progress is the 100m sprint where the objective is simple and there is no argument as to who the GOAT is because the parameters are not subjective.  No one would ever say that Carl Lewis is the GOAT of the 100m sprint when it is clear that Usain Bolt is. Bolt is a bigger, faster, stronger version of those that came before him and to show dominance among more dominant athletes is more difficult than ever.  Unless you are an outlier and the obvious example of an outlier is Shaq. There hasn't been anything like him before or after so his skillset will transcend future generations until there are athletes that are similar.  One day everyone on a basketball court will be 7 foot 250 pounds and agile and can shoot.  

 

Golf is no different...I assure you that the next Tiger will look much more like DJ than Rory as bigger, faster, stronger athletes chose golf.  That being said Tiger is the GOAT, but there will be another and that person might not even be born yet.  That person will likely not win 15 majors, but 15 years from now 11 or 12 majors will be more difficult to win than Tiger's 15 just like Tiger's 15 were more difficult to attain than his predecessors  This is true across all sport. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Righty to Lefty

[oikos1]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

From an unbiased scientific view and I quote my college exercise science instructor.  " So long as athletes continue to be injected into a sport and continue to get bigger, faster, and stronger, the greatest to play any sport is playing right now...unless that athlete was a physical outlier and this is true no matter the sport." He then proceeded to explain and prove it over the course of the entire semester.  I was skeptical at first but then by the end of it I understood fully.  

 

When you think about it everything about any  given sport has continued to advance and progress forward from generation to generation and until that progress flatlines then the GOAT is playing every sport right now.  That can be said because athletes are clearly bigger, faster, and stronger than ever. That being true it is more and more difficult to be dominant among today's athletes then it was even a generation ago. The simplest measure of the progress is the 100m sprint where the objective is simple and there is no argument as to who the GOAT is because the parameters are not subjective.  No one would ever say that Carl Lewis is the GOAT of the 100m sprint when it is clear that Usain Bolt is. Bolt is a bigger, faster, stronger version of those that came before him and to show dominance among more dominant athletes is more difficult than ever.  Unless you are an outlier and the prime and obvious example of an outlier is Shaq. There hasn't been anything like him before or after so his skillset will transcend future generations until there are athletes that are similar.  One day everyone on a basketball court will be 7 foot 250 pounds and agile and can shoot.  

 

Golf is no different...I assure you that the next Tiger will look much more like DJ than Rory as bigger, faster, stronger athletes chose golf.  That being said Tiger is the GOAT, but there will be another and that person might not even be born yet.  That person will likely not win 15 majors, but 15 years from now 11 or 12 majors will be more difficult to win than Tiger's 15 just like Tiger's 15 were more difficult to attain than his predecessors  This is true across all sport. 

That sounds good in theory, but you already combined apples and oranges and lemons and limes.  The 100m sprint is a linear measurement that allows for one parameter to determine who is the fastest.  Basketball, golf and most other sports require multiple skill sets to excel and achieve consideration for Goat status.  Not to mention a career that is often impacted by contracts, injuries and longevity.

 

Agree that athletes are bigger, faster and stronger but if you don't have the wins and championships, you're not getting consideration for The Goat.  Error of recency also clouds the ability to make unbiased assessments.  Following your theory, who in golf that is "playing right now" in the upcoming Memorial Tournament is the Goat?

[Christosterone]

Jack, tiger and lord Byron….

 

that’s it for me..

put them in any order u want

 

-chris

[PJE]

4 hours ago, tiderider said:

?? ... you have DJ two spots ahead of someone with more majors and more total wins ... and Vijay did it against Tiger and Phil ... what about DJ's career stands out to you, above Vijay's career? ... 

He has been on Tour since 2007 and in 2020 he became the third guy since Nicklaus and Woods to win each year for the first 13 years of his career. In 14 years, he's got 24 PGA Tour wins including two majors.

So, the overall consistency over a long time. Plus, this Wayne Gretzky's burner account. 

[bscinstnct]

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

From an unbiased scientific view and I quote my college exercise science instructor.  " So long as athletes continue to be injected into a sport and continue to get bigger, faster, and stronger, the greatest to play any sport is playing right now...unless that athlete was a physical outlier and this is true no matter the sport." He then proceeded to explain and prove it over the course of the entire semester.  I was skeptical at first but then by the end of it I understood fully.  

 

When you think about it everything about any  given sport has continued to advance and progress forward from generation to generation and until that progress flatlines then the GOAT is playing every sport right now.  That can be said because athletes are clearly bigger, faster, and stronger than ever. That being true it is more and more difficult to be dominant among today's athletes then it was even a generation ago. The simplest measure of the progress is the 100m sprint where the objective is simple and there is no argument as to who the GOAT is because the parameters are not subjective.  No one would ever say that Carl Lewis is the GOAT of the 100m sprint when it is clear that Usain Bolt is. Bolt is a bigger, faster, stronger version of those that came before him and to show dominance among more dominant athletes is more difficult than ever.  Unless you are an outlier and the prime and obvious example of an outlier is Shaq. There hasn't been anything like him before or after so his skillset will transcend future generations until there are athletes that are similar.  One day everyone on a basketball court will be 7 foot 250 pounds and agile and can shoot.  

 

Golf is no different...I assure you that the next Tiger will look much more like DJ than Rory as bigger, faster, stronger athletes chose golf.  That being said Tiger is the GOAT, but there will be another and that person might not even be born yet.  That person will likely not win 15 majors, but 15 years from now 11 or 12 majors will be more difficult to win than Tiger's 15 just like Tiger's 15 were more difficult to attain than his predecessors  This is true across all sport. 

 

Comparing DJ and Rory underlines that height and weight, on their own, provide  vastly diminished returns in golf. Assuming someone is at least 5’8, 5’9 or taller. In fact, there is some anecdotal evidence that guys over 6’2/6’3 may not be ideal size for putting. 
 

Sam Snead was 5”11, Hogan was 5’9, Jack was 5’10, TW 6’0, 

 

BK, Bryson, Spieth, Rory, all 5’9-6’

 

Also, keep in mind that it’s not “human evolution” that leads to bigger stronger athletes in the field that you see a much as simple population growth, better nutrition, and access to talent around the globe that results in access to larger pools of talent.

 

Thats why the guys in football are all such freaks. It’s not that all of a sudden, there’s that many more humans that size and fast. It’s more so there are more established programs of opportunity open to these athletes. Plus nutrition and training.

 

For for example, LSU did not allow African Americans to play football until 1971. Now multiply this cultural fact across the nation on all the levels that impacted when in history the athletes in the NFL you see today would have got there. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by bscinstnct

[dcfas]

6 hours ago, Christosterone said:

Jack, tiger and lord Byron….

 

that’s it for me..

put them in any order u want

 

-chris

I hear you. But I’m kind of partial to Snead too.

[dcfas]

22 hours ago, PJE said:

1. Tiger Woods
2. Phil Mickelson
3. Rory Mcilroy
4. Dustin Johnson
5. Ernie Els
6. Vijay Singh
7. Sergio Garcia
8. Jordan Spieth
9. Brooks Koepka
10. Adam Scott ?

It gets tough after 5 or 6...?

It definitely gets tougher post 2000 after #s 1 and 2. I don’t think Singh gets the props he deserves (I would put VJ #3). Part of the challenge is that it’s hard to judge without spanning a longer career for the more current crop of players, of course.

 

But Phil, yeah. He’s right there after the man.

[Shilgy]

9 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Comparing DJ and Rory underlines that height and weight, on their own, provide  vastly diminished returns in golf. Assuming someone is at least 5’8, 5’9 or taller. In fact, there is some anecdotal evidence that guys over 6’2/6’3 may not be ideal size for putting. 
 

Sam Snead was 5”11, Hogan was 5’9, Jack was 5’10, TW 6’0, 

 

BK, Bryson, Spieth, Rory, all 5’9-6’

 

Also, keep in mind that it’s not “human evolution” that leads to bigger stronger athletes in the field that you see a much as simple population growth, better nutrition, and access to talent around the globe that results in access to larger pools of talent.

 

Thats why the guys in football are all such freaks. It’s not that all of a sudden, there’s that many more humans that size and fast. It’s more so there are more established programs of opportunity open to these athletes. Plus nutrition and training.

 

For for example, LSU did not allow African Americans to play football until 1971. Now multiply this cultural fact across the nation on all the levels that impacted when in history the athletes in the NFL you see today would have got there. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In this conversation does it really matter if it is “human evolution” or  nutrition strength and trading that creates the improvement?

 

Th players are bigger stronger faster….ie new and improved….. AND there are more of them.

[bscinstnct]

20 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

In this conversation does it really matter if it is “human evolution” or  nutrition strength and trading that creates the improvement?

 

Th players are bigger stronger faster….ie new and improved….. AND there are more of them.

 

Good call. 
 

Well, it maters from the standpoint that the height of the bar is not being raised as far as evolution of potential of “super humans”. That takes millions of years not hundreds. And there’s really no catalyst that requires human to adapt and evolve anymore. 

 

It’s the cultural factors really that just enable more access to talent but also outlier talent.

 

For example. If culture here never evolved, you’d never have even seen Tiger on the tour. 
 

 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Good call. 
 

Well, it maters from the standpoint that the height of the bar is not being raised as far as evolution of potential of “super humans”. That takes millions of years not hundreds. And there’s really no catalyst that requires human to adapt and evolve anymore. 

 

It’s the cultural factors really that just enable more access to talent but also outlier talent.

 

For example. If culture here never evolved, you’d never have even seen Tiger on the tour. 
 

 

All true.  Mankind has not evolved to the point that high school girls are really bigger stronger faster than Tarzan, Johnny Weissmuller , but they are faster swimmers.

[ChrisL52188]

On 6/1/2021 at 10:20 PM, tw_focus said:

1. TW, without a doubt. The debate starts at 2.

Jack Nicklaus is better.  His major championship record speaks for itself... And no one will surpass it.  No one seems to have that drive to go after it like Tiger did... 

Edited June 3, 2021 by ChrisL52188

[llewol007]

Agree, one Goat and that is Jack Nicklaus. Phil would make top 20 players. He has the credentials to back that up. In fact, I would probably take Ernie off there and I am a big Ernie fan.