Euro Tour: Irish & Scottish Opens

[tiderider]

 

Lucas Herbert wins the 2021 Irish Open

 

Edited July 4, 2021 by tiderider

[tiderider]

 

 

Scottish Open

Where

The Renaissance Club/North Berwick, Scotland

Doak - 71/7293 yards

 

Harrington to advise Doak on changes to tRC

 

Under the arrangement, the three-time major winner will consult with The Renaissance Club’s designer, Tom Doak, who is currently paying a visit to the course in the build up to the Aberdeen Standard Investments-sponsored Rolex Series event.

“From the beginning, the goal for The Renaissance Club was to host big events, but that was back in 2005, and the best players just keep getting better,” said Doak.

 

Who

Rahm/JT/Rory/Morikawa/Schauffele/Hatton/Zalatoris/Scheffler

 

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/rory-mcilroy-joins-jon-rahm-in-world-class-field-for-scottish-open-3285902

 

 

TV

tbd

Edited June 29, 2021 by tiderider

[PhilsFanDrew]

I'm definitely going to be more into the European Tour the next two weeks over the PGA.  Rocket Mortgage and John Deere doesn't exactly move the needle for me.  

[jmck]

21 minutes ago, PhilsFanDrew said:

I'm definitely going to be more into the European Tour the next two weeks over the PGA.  Rocket Mortgage and John Deere doesn't exactly move the needle for me.  

Yes sir. Best three weeks of the golf season—Irish, Scottish, British Opens.

[smashdn]

Not to rain on this GBI parade, but what is with the course selection?  A Nicklaus course for the Irish and a Doak modern course for the Scottish?  Not speaking upon the quality or lack thereof of the courses but there isn't an older, more prestigious course to hold these events?

 

Why not three links events in a row?  Celebrate what the rest of the world doesn't have or has very, very little opportunity to play on.

[jmck]

15 minutes ago, smashdn said:

Not to rain on this GBI parade, but what is with the course selection?  A Nicklaus course for the Irish and a Doak modern course for the Scottish?  Not speaking upon the quality or lack thereof of the courses but there isn't an older, more prestigious course to hold these events?

 

Why not three links events in a row?  Celebrate what the rest of the world doesn't have or has very, very little opportunity to play on.

Yeah, a fair criticism for sure.  Some years you get this....other years, like in in 2018, you get Ballyliffin and Gullane.  Though Renaissance at least looks the part I guess?

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

Not to rain on this GBI parade, but what is with the course selection?  A Nicklaus course for the Irish and a Doak modern course for the Scottish?  Not speaking upon the quality or lack thereof of the courses but there isn't an older, more prestigious course to hold these events?

 

Why not three links events in a row?  Celebrate what the rest of the world doesn't have or has very, very little opportunity to play on.

Could be housing related because of COVID protocols, but there's always the obvious - you can't make clubs hold events if they don't want to. Maybe COVID is part of why the Scottish Open is at the same place for the third consecutive year, don't know.  Irish Open? The trend has been to have more links courses involved (see Lahinch Old, 2019 and others lately), so that's the trend, but again, clubs have to want the events and the courses have to be appropriate for the pros' games.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, jmck said:

Yeah, a fair criticism for sure.  Some years you get this....other years, like in in 2018, you get Ballyliffin and Gullane.  Though Renaissance at least looks the part I guess?

 

If they don't ask Doak to give it the US Open treatment like they have in the past.  I know from reading his take he wants it to run and play as a links.

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

If they don't ask Doak to give it the US Open treatment like they have in the past.  I know from reading his take he wants it to run and play as a links.

Does he set it up?

 

It wasn't like a U.S. Open in 2019.  

[smashdn]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Does he set it up?

 

It wasn't like a U.S. Open in 2019.  

 

He was consulted.  He did not like how it was set up and presented iirc.

[Hawkeye77]

5 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

He was consulted.  He did not like how it was set up and presented iirc.

If he never set it up how could he give it the "U.S. Open treatment"?  Guess I'm missing something.  Asking his opinion about how someone else set it up is different.  But it wasn't like a U.S. Open two years ago, not sure it was last year, just had bad weather.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[jmck]

Doak actually hung out in the Sky Sports both for like half an hour plus on Thursday or Friday morning last year at Renaissance. It was a pretty wide ranging discussion and they touched on it, not just in terms of the tournament but in terms of the day to day conditions and setup, and the tweaks that have been made since it opened. He basically shook his head and said he fulfilled the design brief (links) and everything after that has been out of his hands, that ownership/management caters to ultra high end resort type golfers who don’t want balls bounding all over the place or getting lost in the hay. That they specifically want it to look like a links course without particularly playing like one. Stuff to that effect.

[Hawkeye77]

5 minutes ago, jmck said:

Doak actually hung out in the Sky Sports both for like half an hour plus on Thursday or Friday morning last year at Renaissance. It was a pretty wide ranging discussion and they touched on it, not just in terms of the tournament but in terms of the day to day conditions and setup, and the tweaks that have been made since it opened. He basically shook his head and said he fulfilled the design brief (links) and everything after that has been out of his hands, that ownership/management caters to ultra high end resort type golfers who don’t want balls bounding all over the place or getting lost in the hay. That they specifically want it to look like a links course without particularly playing like one. Stuff to that effect.

Which wasn't about how the Scottish Open was set up, nor did set it up for the tournament, nor do those comments suggest anything about U.S. Open conditions.  This idea that he was asked to set up a U.S. Open for the Scottish Open has no apparent substance. If someone else is skewing the course that way, let's get after them!

Edited June 28, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[smashdn]

Narrow(ed) fairways and dense "hay" sure seems like a US Open MO to me.  Tom has mentioned he is currently in Scotland.  Not sure his business at the moment as it is none of mine.

 

He did mention they have removed trees, though not that it would impact play.  

 

Let me clarify the intention of my statement.  Doak is in Scotland.  I am guessing he has at minimum visited Renaissance ahead of the Scottish Open.  2019's conditions (man made and at the hands of Ma Nature) are not what I would expect for a Scottish Open given the plethora of links courses (as compared to other countries including but not limited to the US).  It is my hope that he is not being asked to provide consultation for their US Open like conditions.  That is all.

 

I looked back through several threads on GCA to find where he expressed his frustration with how it was playing but could not find it buried there.  I saw several mentions of his displeasure (not that it matters) but not the actual quote.  They mentioned set up but I will not go to that extent lacking his quote.

Edited June 28, 2021 by smashdn

[Hawkeye77]

10 minutes ago, smashdn said:

Narrow(ed) fairways and dense "hay" sure seems like a US Open MO to me.  Tom has mentioned he is currently in Scotland.  Not sure his business at the moment as it is none of mine.

 

He did mention they have removed trees, though not that it would impact play.  

 

Let me clarify the intention of my statement.  Doak is in Scotland.  I am guessing he has at minimum visited Renaissance ahead of the Scottish Open.  Last year's conditions (man made and at the hands of Ma Nature) are not what I would expect for a Scottish Open given the plethora of links courses (as compared to other countries including but not limited to the US).  It is my hope that he is not being asked to provide consultation for their US Open like conditions.  That is all.

 

I looked back through several threads on GCA to find where he expressed his frustration with how it was playing but could not find it buried there.  I saw several mentions of his displeasure (not that it matters) but not the actual quote.  They mentioned set up but I will not go to that extent lacking his quote.

Fairways were wider for the actual Scottish Open in '19, conditions were not U.S. Open-like. 

 

You said he had been asked to give it the "U.S. Open treatment" - there doesn't seem to be anything to suggest he ever was involved or asked to do so.  Were they U.S. Open conditions last year?  Just remember bad weather and plenty of reporting/watching of that.  

 

Doak may not like what the owners have done with it I guess, but that's different than Scottish Open setup which I assume is not done by the owners.  Players said rough was thicker because time of year it was played in '20, not that it was tricked up in any way.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

If they don't ask Doak to give it the US Open treatment like they have in the past.  

 

They is the Socttish Open.  If the Scottish Open don't ask Doak to give it the US Open treatment like the Scottish Open has in the past.

 

I guess technically it is the ET that does the set up but I wasn't saying that Doak does the set up.

 

1 minute ago, Hawkeye77 said:

You said he had been asked to give it the "U.S. Open treatment" - there doesn't seem to be anything to suggest he ever was involved or asked to do so.  Were they U.S. Open conditions last year?  Just remember bad weather and plenty of reporting/watching of that.  

 

Doak may not like what the owners have done with it I guess, but that's different than Scottish Open setup which I assume is not done by the owners.

 

Clarified above.

 

Euro Tour does the set up apparently.  Rory didn't care for it either as I dig.

 

Again I can't find it at the moment where I was looking but there was a discussion about fairway width.  His whole lament was that they had asked for a links design but didn't maintain it in links conditions, for member play and the Scottish Open.  He also wasn't thrilled about some of the asks regarding the greens that made them easier (fairer was the word he said they used in the discussion).  Some of that is no doubt because it is his design, other of it seems to be how the design has been presented is not exactly how it was designed to be presented.  In other words, if he had known it was going to be presented in a more heathland or park land or faux links type condition some of what he designed would likely have been different.  That is all reading between the lines on my part.

[Hawkeye77]

8 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

They is the Socttish Open.  If the Scottish Open don't ask Doak to give it the US Open treatment like the Scottish Open has in the past.

 

I guess technically it is the ET that does the set up but I wasn't saying that Doak does the set up.

 

 

Clarified above.

 

Euro Tour does the set up apparently.  Rory didn't care for it either as I dig.

 

Again I can't find it at the moment where I was looking but there was a discussion about fairway width.  His whole lament was that they had asked for a links design but didn't maintain it in links conditions, for member play and the Scottish Open.  He also wasn't thrilled about some of the asks regarding the greens that made them easier (fairer was the word he said they used in the discussion).  Some of that is no doubt because it is his design, other of it seems to be how the design has been presented is not exactly how it was designed to be presented.  In other words, if he had known it was going to be presented in a more heathland or park land or faux links type condition some of what he designed would likely have been different.  That is all reading between the lines on my part.

 

Misunderstood, but I suppose the answer is they aren't going to ask him to set it up anyway. 😉

 

He's lamented re member play in practice for sure, but haven't seen criticisms by Doak of setup for the tourney - just looking for them if they exist or how it approached a U.S. Open in terms of setup last year since it really hadn't in the past and can't imagine that is the intent this year, but they aren't asking us either!

 

BTW, Rory's criticism of the Scottish Open was that it was too easy, not too hard.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[jmck]

I guess the point here is that in Doak’s view of things the changes they’ve made for member/guest play have precluded a tournament setup where the course plays as he designed it to play.
 

Gotta be at least a little frustrating for him. On that Sky Sports chat I referenced above you could tell he was trying to not get in too much trouble but he really wasn’t pleased about it.

[golfortennis]

Only reason I might tune into the event in Detroit is because I've actually played the course.  Otherwise, as someone said, 3 of the best weeks on the golf calendar.

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, jmck said:

I guess the point here is that in Doak’s view of things the changes they’ve made for member/guest play have precluded a tournament setup where the course plays as he designed it to play.
 

Gotta be at least a little frustrating for him. On that Sky Sports chat I referenced above you could tell he was trying to not get in too much trouble but he really wasn’t pleased about it.

Could be, sounded to me like it was as much he wasn't all that excited with what the owners did in general as well.  Definitely going to be diplomatic!

[tiderider]

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/padraig-harrington-is-new-player-consultant-for-the-renaissance-club-3280528

 

“In particular, I think we will focus on the par-5 holes. We don’t care so much about the winning score – that’s all about the weather – but we want to make sure if they miss wide with their second shots, the opponent who has executed properly will come out ahead.”

[MattyO1984]

Having played Renaissance, it came in for some pretty unfair criticism in 2019. I totally accept that it is a ‘modern’ links and there are some pretty generous fairways and par 5’s which are massively scoreable but in 2019, for almost four full days, they had next to no wind at all. For a course situated where it is, it is pretty much a lock that there would be wind. There was barely a puff. With dry, running fairways, no breeze to speak of and the skill of these guys, it was pretty much a pitch and putt course. Aaron Rai’s winning score of -11 last year was much nearer what you would expect if the conditions were there usual.

[iBanesto]

I reckon Calum Hill is due to do well in one of these tournaments.

[Hawkeye77]

6 hours ago, tiderider said:

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/padraig-harrington-is-new-player-consultant-for-the-renaissance-club-3280528

 

“In particular, I think we will focus on the par-5 holes. We don’t care so much about the winning score – that’s all about the weather – but we want to make sure if they miss wide with their second shots, the opponent who has executed properly will come out ahead.”

Nice, sounds like they are maybe being responsive to Doak's concerns and involving him in actual setup this time around - that quote sounds like tightening up a bit, so maybe relates to Rory's concerns as well that the setup was too easy in the past.

[MattyO1984]

1 hour ago, iBanesto said:

I reckon Calum Hill is due to do well in one of these tournaments.

 

Great call! He has been there or thereabouts a few times. Getting in front of a home crowd could be the final push that he needs to have a breakout performance. 

[Hawkeye77]

14 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

If they don't ask Doak to give it the US Open treatment like they have in the past.  I know from reading his take he wants it to run and play as a links.

See @tiderider's post above.

 

Turns out they have actually asked him and Paddy is involved so you will get your wish - it should play as a links but sounds like it will also be more challenging.

[tiderider]

19 hours ago, smashdn said:

Not to rain on this GBI parade, but what is with the course selection?  A Nicklaus course for the Irish and a Doak modern course for the Scottish?  Not speaking upon the quality or lack thereof of the courses but there isn't an older, more prestigious course to hold these events?

 

Why not three links events in a row?  Celebrate what the rest of the world doesn't have or has very, very little opportunity to play on.

hard to get members to give up that much time in prime golfing season ... i know i wouldn't want to give up my home course for a tournament, esp if it's a classic links course ... i wouldn't need a tournament for any prestige reasons ... 

[smashdn]

Said in his conversations with the ET that they wanted to add more penal bunkers in the driving zones in areas.  He wasn't thrilled and tried or was successful in talking them out of it based upon what he had learned from Koepka and Harrington regarding how the tour guys approach risk.

 

I want it to play harder.  Harder does not have to mean a traditional US Open set up.  I don't want that.  Wide, running fairways don't mean easy automatically.  Wide sticky fairways mean you will end up with a fair to good lie though and it will likely stay close to where the ball lands.  About the only things that give the tour guys pause is wind, rock hard approaches and greens, and deep rough.  I don't like the deep, nearly unplayable rough idea.  If it can be crispy and thin and create uncertainty but still offer recovery that would be ideal.  Rock hard approaches and greens can be negated by weather and wind, goes without saying, it is uncontrollable.

 

Putting holes in locations that are best accessed from a certain side or spot in the fairway and then having some feature in the fairway would be ideal, especially on the latter holes on Sunday when someone may need to take on some added risk in order to reach for a birdie.  I don't know the course well enough to say what hole or where the hole would be but that would be my plan.  Reward well executed aggressive play, both off the tee and from the fairway.  Indifferent play results in indifferent scores.  Poor plan or poor execution puts you in a bad spot.

[smashdn]

1 minute ago, tiderider said:

hard to get members to give up that much time in prime golfing season ... i know i wouldn't want to give up my home course for a tournament, esp if it's a classic links course ... i wouldn't need a tournament for any prestige reasons ... 

 

If they wouldn't go in and change the whole world around to play the course then you are giving up a week and half or so.  You will still have stands on it but it still be playable.  No reason to alter a sound links course the way we do to US courses to provide an appropriate challenge.

[tiderider]

related & interesting bit of info: 

Dumbarnie Links to host 2021 Trust Golf Scottish Women's Open | The Scotsman

 

Dumbarnie opened up recently in the Fife region ... by most accounts, is a fabulous layout ...