Quick question - lighter shaft and heavy head vs heavy shaft and light head?

[teddyironboy]

Which would have better MOI, smash, or anything else relevant? Assuming same swingweight and the shaft acted the same despite the different weights (like a real world test would need to use a really stiff and light shaft for the heavy head, and opposite for the other club).

[jvincent]

In order to get them to the same SW you'd probably have to backweight the light shaft/heavy head combo quite a bit which would actually make the total weight, which is arguably more important, quite a bit more for that combo.

 

Personally, I've never liked light headweights and their corresponding swingweights. I never get a good feel for where the head is.

[teddyironboy]

Yes, would need to load it up with lead tape. There must be a difference right? Just guessing it seems like a heavier head and lighter shaft would be better but not sure.

[Stuart_G]

10 hours ago, teddyironboy said:

Which would have better MOI, smash, or anything else relevant? Assuming same swingweight and the shaft acted the same despite the different weights (like a real world test would need to use a really stiff and light shaft for the heavy head, and opposite for the other club).

 

Head weight is the biggest contributor to the MOI of the club (swing weight).  Shaft weight is the biggest contributor to the static weight of the club.   Those are two different types of weight and don't really do a good job balancing each other out.   Which also means if you really fix the swing weight, then you wont see much change in head weight as you change shaft weight.

 

However, even if we put that flaw in the original logic aside, exactly what will happen is hard to predict since it's very subjective. The results will be determined by the effect of those feel changes on the players swing and different players will have different sensitivities to each of those specs.  But it's pretty safe to say that if you go to either extreme with either type of weight you'll likely end up with a poor fit for most individuals and poor results.   If you go to extremes with both, that almost guarantees a poor fit and poor results. 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Stuart_G

[teddyironboy]

You could probably see where I'm going with this especially after you replied to me in another thread.

 

Heavy head (higher moi and smash) on a lighter shaft at the same swingweight so that swing speed is the same, really sounds a nice boost to any iron (feel changes aside, perhaps can get used tot it). And maybe if shaft weight is the biggest contributor to static weight, could it mean that this club could be a lighter club at the same swingweight for an even faster swing speed?

 

Goes against what smart and experienced clubmakers have done for ages. I'll have to test when I get the opportunity, just to make sure. I dunno. I have hope it works out.

 

Edit - so doing the math, 85g graphite is 4.5 swingweights lighter than a 125g steel shaft. So that needs 9g added to the head. So for the same swingweight, you have a 31g lighter overall club but with a heavier head. I don't think it will change the swing feel too much, maybe this is the equivalent to adding 6 swingweights to a 125g shaft.  One thing that must work against it is shaft weight must contribute to the moi and smash as well?

Edited August 22, 2021 by teddyironboy

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, teddyironboy said:

You could probably see where I'm going with this especially after you replied to me in another thread.

 

Heavy head (higher moi and smash) on a lighter shaft at the same swingweight so that swing speed is the same, really sounds a nice boost to any iron (feel changes aside, perhaps can get used tot it). And maybe if shaft weight is the biggest contributor to static weight, could it mean that this club could be a lighter club at the same swingweight for an even faster swing speed?

 

It sounds like an easy way to get improvement but it never works out that way.  The influence of the different weight changes on the swing (including swing speed and the quality of the impact and dynamic loft delivered and face control) will always be much bigger - and therefore have a bigger influence on the ball flight results than the (very small) theoretical changes that might happen at impact from the increase in head mass.

 

 

1 hour ago, teddyironboy said:

Edit - so doing the math, 85g graphite is 4.5 swingweights lighter than a 125g steel shaft. So that needs 9g added to the head. So for the same swingweight, you have a 31g lighter overall club but with a heavier head. I don't think it will change the swing feel too much, maybe this is the equivalent to adding 6 swingweights to a 125g shaft.  One thing that must work against it is shaft weight must contribute to the moi and smash as well?

I just replied about that in the other post - but that rule for shaft weight contributions to swing weight is useless.  Lighter shafts will typically have lower balance points and wont allow you to add that much weight and still maintain the same swing weight.

 

And as I alluded to before,  two clubs at the same swing weight but different static weights will feel completely different and result in very different swings for most players.  The two different types of weights will effect different parts of the swing.  Whether that is going to end up as a good change or a bad change is something that you can only answer by testing out the idea.  The only true rule of fitting is that you never know what will happen until you try it.  So nothing wrong with experimentation.  Just don't get your hopes up.

[teddyironboy]

Thanks for the clear explanations Stuart. 👍

 

Sounds like it's best to just let a pro fitter do their thing with me.

[Billfitz]

Where head weight is concerned a lighter head allows faster swing speed, but it also reduces the momentum available to transfer to the ball. Imagine hitting a bowling ball with a club versus a ten pound sledge hammer. The sledge will be harder to swing, but it will send the bowling ball a lot further. Shaft weight doesn't affect the head momentum all that much, but it does affect swing speed. So if you trust Newton's Laws of Motion a lighter shaft would be beneficial with a heavier head. But there's no hard and fast rule once you add the variable of the guy swinging the club into the mix. That's where fitting comes in. Some guys will hit longer with a heavier head and slower swing speed, some will hit longer with a lighter head and higher swing speed, and all is for naught if you're spraying. Fitting allows one to find out what works best for them.

[Stuart_G]

13 hours ago, teddyironboy said:

Thanks for the clear explanations Stuart. 👍

 

Sounds like it's best to just let a pro fitter do their thing with me.

 

Fitting is just trial and error testing that's guided by someone else.   Nothing wrong with doing that trial and error testing on your own.   Thanks to the versatility of lead tape, it's really easy to play around with the "shaft" weight and head weight in various increments and combinations if you start out with a build that's on the light side.

[968cab]

@Stuart_G I’ve seen you mention lead tape on the shaft multiple times for experimentation/trial… 4-5 inches below the grip.

 

1) is that the approximate “balance point” of most clubs (non-CB, generic shaft)?  Would you be better off determining the exact balance point for the tape?

 

2) Do you mean wrap it around like a band, or along the spine centered at 4.5” below the grip? 

Thanks! 

[Stuart_G]

22 minutes ago, 968cab said:

@Stuart_G I’ve seen you mention lead tape on the shaft multiple times for experimentation/trial… 4-5 inches below the grip.

 

1) is that the approximate “balance point” of most clubs (non-CB, generic shaft)?  Would you be better off determining the exact balance point for the tape?

 

The whole point of adding lead tape to the shaft is to test out how good a fit a different shaft weight will be.   Using the balance point of the current shaft is a bit pointless since the different (heavier) shaft you're trying to simulate will likely have a completely different balance point.    IF you know the balance point of the current shaft AND you also know the balance point of the heavier shaft AND can figure out where to place the lead tape to move the balance point to be the same as the heavier shaft, be my guest.   But most don't / can't know that so it's not really worth the effort.  

 

You see, the balance point effects the swing weight (head weight fit) but by changing the static weight, you really need to refit for swing weight or head weight anyways.   That makes the exact placement of the lead tape on the shaft relatively unimportant.  I prefer to err on the side of higher than lower to allow a wider range of swing weight testing.  It's easier to add head weight than take it away for that swing weight /head weight fit testing.

 

 

 

22 minutes ago, 968cab said:

2) Do you mean wrap it around like a band, or along the spine centered at 4.5” below the grip? 

 

I like to wrap around - but either will work fine.

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Stuart_G

[968cab]

Perfect, and thanks for the extremely quick response!!  

 

Should’ve trusted my gut (which matched your answers), instead of displaying my ignorance publically! 😂

[Stuart_G]

If you had that question, it's also likely that other readers did as well but was afraid to ask for clarification.

 

The only shame in ignorance is the desire to stay that way.