LR E5/Red penalty direct line question

[denkea]

This is from the USGA Local Rules.

 

"A line from the hole through the fairway reference point (point B) (and within two club-lengths to fairway side of that line)"

 

My question is the reference point.  If a point where the fairway meets the rough is that reference point and do you have to mark with a tee?  Then do the two club lengths from that point need to marked also?  

 

If they do need to be and the ball is dropped and rolls a few inches closer to the hole is that then not a correct drop.  Would one incur a penalty from then hitting that ball?  

 

The same question would be from taking direct line relier from a red penalty area.  Once a ref point has been determined and the ball rolls a couple inches toward the hole.  Is that a bad drop also? (Even if that point is, say, 15 yards behind the place the ball last crossed the penalty area

 

IF the ball is then played what are the penalties?

[sui generis]

16 minutes ago, denkea said:

My question is the reference point.  If a point where the fairway meets the rough is that reference point and do you have to mark with a tee?  Then do the two club lengths from that point need to marked also?  

 

R14.1 tells us "Before lifting a ball under a Rule requiring the ball to be replaced on its original spot, the player must mark the spot . . . ."

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=14&subrulenum=1

 

So, the short answer is, no tees are required.

 

That said, in competitive golf most players will mark even when not required to do so. They do it for two reasons 1) because they don't really know when they must, and 2) it demonstrates to others who may be watching that the relief area has been correctly defined. 

[sui generis]

25 minutes ago, denkea said:

If they do need to be and the ball is dropped and rolls a few inches closer to the hole is that then not a correct drop.  Would one incur a penalty from then hitting that ball?  

 

The same question would be from taking direct line relier from a red penalty area.  Once a ref point has been determined and the ball rolls a couple inches toward the hole.  Is that a bad drop also? (Even if that point is, say, 15 yards behind the place the ball last crossed the penalty area

 

The ball must be dropped into and remain within the defined relief area. See the Definition of Drop:

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=14

[Sawgrass]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

The ball must be dropped into and remain within the defined relief area. 

Hey, buddy . . . I’m betting you wish you said, “The ball must be dropped into and COME TO REST within the defined relief area.”  (Momentary excursions outside are acceptable,)

[Shilgy]

Did both of you miss the last one or am I incorrect?

 

op posted

The same question would be from taking direct line relier from a red penalty area.  Once a ref point has been determined and the ball rolls a couple inches toward the hole.  Is that a bad drop also? (Even if that point is, say, 15 yards behind the place the ball last crossed the penalty area

IF the ball is then played what are the penalties?

 

If he was taking back on line from entry point does he not have a two club length corridor to drop on? One club length from either side of line? And if it rolls closer  to hole Fromm the drop point but still 15 yards back it is still a good drop if it stayed within the width of the corridor? 
 

Many folks seem to think any drop that bounces forward a bit needs to be redropped but does it not need to get closer than original spot?

Edited September 25, 2021 by Shilgy

[Halebopp]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Did both of you miss the last one or am I incorrect?

 

op posted

The same question would be from taking direct line relier from a red penalty area.  Once a ref point has been determined and the ball rolls a couple inches toward the hole.  Is that a bad drop also? (Even if that point is, say, 15 yards behind the place the ball last crossed the penalty area

IF the ball is then played what are the penalties?

 

If he was taking back on line from entry point does he not have a two club length corridor to drop on? One club length from either side of line? And if it rolls closer  to hole Fromm the drop point but still 15 yards back it is still a good drop if it stayed within the width of the corridor? 
 

Many folks seem to think any drop that bounces forward a bit needs to be redropped but does it not need to get closer than original spot?

 

The only question of importance is, "did the ball come to rest within the relief area"? The reference point which determines the front edge of the relief area is the point where the ball is assumed to be lost or crossed the OB margin for E-5. For Back-on-the-Line relief (Penalty Areas and Unplayable Balls) it's the point the player chooses, or if left unchosen, the point in which the ball first touched the ground.

 

For E-5, the ball could travel a hundred meters towards the hole as long as the ball was dropped at least a hundred meters behind the reference point. In the other extreme, for BotL relief when the player doesn't choose a reference point, the ball cannot move an inch closer to the hole than where it first hit the ground. (Unless the MLR E-12 is in effect.)

 

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Did both of you miss the last one or am I incorrect?

 

op posted

The same question would be from taking direct line relier from a red penalty area.  Once a ref point has been determined and the ball rolls a couple inches toward the hole.  Is that a bad drop also? (Even if that point is, say, 15 yards behind the place the ball last crossed the penalty area

IF the ball is then played what are the penalties?

 

If he was taking back on line from entry point does he not have a two club length corridor to drop on? One club length from either side of line? And if it rolls closer  to hole Fromm the drop point but still 15 yards back it is still a good drop if it stayed within the width of the corridor? 
 

Many folks seem to think any drop that bounces forward a bit needs to be redropped but does it not need to get closer than original spot?

 

Back-on-the-line is still a work in progress in my opinion.

 

The procedure described in R17.1d wants the player to mark a reference point and drop in the now-defined relief area. That's well and good if the player does indeed chose a reference point. If they don't, things get messy.

 

Prior to 2019, the player need not choose a reference point and could drop and come to rest anywhere in the "lane." 2019 complicated the procedure somewhat,

[Shilgy]

32 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

The only question of importance is, "did the ball come to rest within the relief area"? The reference point which determines the front edge of the relief area is the point where the ball is assumed to be lost or crossed the OB margin for E-5. For Back-on-the-Line relief (Penalty Areas and Unplayable Balls) it's the point the player chooses, or if left unchosen, the point in which the ball first touched the ground.

 

For E-5, the ball could travel a hundred meters towards the hole as long as the ball was dropped at least a hundred meters behind the reference point. In the other extreme, for BotL relief when the player doesn't choose a reference point, the ball cannot move an inch closer to the hole than where it first hit the ground. (Unless the MLR E-12 is in effect.)

 

 

27 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Back-on-the-line is still a work in progress in my opinion.

 

The procedure described in R17.1d wants the player to mark a reference point and drop in the now-defined relief area. That's well and good if the player does indeed chose a reference point. If they don't, things get messy.

 

Prior to 2019, the player need not choose a reference point and could drop and come to rest anywhere in the "lane." 2019 complicated the procedure somewhat,

Thank you both. If i am reading correct then when taking relief for any reason a relief area should be defined by a semi circle? So even when taking botl relief the ball cannot move forward of that arc after dropping?  I have always played it as it cannot end up forward of the original spot.  Which is now incorrect.

[antip]

Virtually every course here has MLR E-12 operating (but most do not use MLR E-5), which puts a very different slant on back on line dropping arrangements.

[rogolf]

6 hours ago, Shilgy said:

 

Thank you both. If i am reading correct then when taking relief for any reason a relief area should be defined by a semi circle? So even when taking botl relief the ball cannot move forward of that arc after dropping?  I have always played it as it cannot end up forward of the original spot.  Which is now incorrect.

Back on the line relief was much simpler in the previous Rules code.  It seems that for the effort of uniformity/consistency for relief areas, the botl relief has become much more complicated for those players who wish to drop near the "front edge" of the semi-circle.  Not so complicated for those who drop half a club-length behind the reference point.  I would much rather have that half club-length near the hole rather than 100 or so yards away from the hole.

[sui generis]

My version of E-12 would say:

 

Reference Point: A point on the course chosen by the player that is on the reference line and is farther from the hole than the estimated point (with no limit on how far back on the line):

 

In choosing this reference point, the player must indicate the point by using an object (such as a tee).

 

If a player fails to mark this reference point and proceeds, they will have played from a wrong place. See Rule 14.7.

[antip]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

My version of E-12 would say:

 

Reference Point: A point on the course chosen by the player that is on the reference line and is farther from the hole than the estimated point (with no limit on how far back on the line):

 

In choosing this reference point, the player must indicate the point by using an object (such as a tee).

 

If a player fails to mark this reference point and proceeds, they will have played from a wrong place. See Rule 14.7.

The easy thing to agree is MLR E-12 is truly ugly. But I would hate the new procedural penalties this approach would introduce. Golf was full of them, we made progress in getting rid of them, this would IMO move us back towards the dark ages.

 

I would eliminate E-12, I would separate BOL relief from other relief in a minimalist way (it is simply not possible to do BOL relief precisely the same as all other relief), the relief area would be defined as within once club length of the line and one club length of the spot on that line equidistant from the hole to where the ball landed when dropped (subject to the usual no closer to the hole than the edge/position taking penalty relief from). 

[rogolf]

Eliminate E-12.  Botl relief anywhere within the corridor created by one club-length on each side of the line.  No reference point.  The ball must stay within the corridor and it doesn't matter how far or which direction it rolls provided it does not roll nearer the hole that the point where the ball originally lay outside a penalty area or the point where it last crossed the edge of a penalty area.

[antip]

6 hours ago, rogolf said:

Eliminate E-12.  Botl relief anywhere within the corridor created by one club-length on each side of the line.  No reference point.  The ball must stay within the corridor and it doesn't matter how far or which direction it rolls provided it does not roll nearer the hole that the point where the ball originally lay outside a penalty area or the point where it last crossed the edge of a penalty area.

We are suggesting something similar, with significant overlap. I support with the 'corridor' concept relating to width, but I don't like the idea of unlimited capacity to move forward or backward any significant distance - simply because it is too different from all other relief processes.

[denkea]

8 hours ago, antip said:

The easy thing to agree is MLR E-12 is truly ugly. But I would hate the new procedural penalties this approach would introduce. Golf was full of them, we made progress in getting rid of them, this would IMO move us back towards the dark ages.

 

I would eliminate E-12, I would separate BOL relief from other relief in a minimalist way (it is simply not possible to do BOL relief precisely the same as all other relief), the relief area would be defined as within once club length of the line and one club length of the spot on that line equidistant from the hole to where the ball landed when dropped (subject to the usual no closer to the hole than the edge/position taking penalty relief from). 

So am I correct in assuming that if E-12 were not in effect and someone dropped BOL without marking the relief point, where the ball lands is in effect THE relief point and it moves 1" forward is that not a bad drop and if hit incurs a penalty? 

[Halebopp]

15 minutes ago, denkea said:

So am I correct in assuming that if E-12 were not in effect and someone dropped BOL without marking the relief point, where the ball lands is in effect THE relief point and it moves 1" forward is that not a bad drop and if hit incurs a penalty? 

 

There's no requirement to mark the reference point even though it's recommended. Therefore you can just make a mental note of it. But if you failed to also do that, then yes, it would be a bad drop.

[antip]

1 hour ago, denkea said:

So am I correct in assuming that if E-12 were not in effect and someone dropped BOL without marking the relief point, where the ball lands is in effect THE relief point and it moves 1" forward is that not a bad drop and if hit incurs a penalty? 

This is precisely why MLR E-12 was put in place, to enable Committee's to avoid this 'gotcha' penalty that could result from someone simply not choosing a reference point, the ball landing but coming to rest any distance at all closer to the hole than where it landed and then being played. Without MLR E-12, this gets the general penalty for playing from a wrong place (because it is outside the relief area).

It was an early recognised glitch in the new rules.

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, antip said:

We are suggesting something similar, with significant overlap. I support with the 'corridor' concept relating to width, but I don't like the idea of unlimited capacity to move forward or backward any significant distance - simply because it is too different from all other relief processes.

The player already has the right to move backward or forward within the corridor before dropping the ball.  Why should distance make any difference after the ball is dropped?  Yes, I realize that botl would be different than other relief areas, but I don't see that as a problem.  It might eliminate some of the drops that are planned to induce the ball to roll so that the player will get to place the ball.

[antip]

7 minutes ago, rogolf said:

The player already has the right to move backward or forward within the corridor before dropping the ball.  Why should distance make any difference after the ball is dropped?  Yes, I realize that botl would be different than other relief areas, but I don't see that as a problem.  It might eliminate some of the drops that are planned to induce the ball to roll so that the player will get to place the ball.

We agree BOTL must have some feature different. My preference is to have nothing different that doesn't need to be different and staying within a fixed distance of the reference is easily maintained in the case of BOTL. So permitting that to vary does not pass the 'necessary' difference test.

 

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

The player already has the right to move backward or forward within the corridor before dropping the ball.  Why should distance make any difference after the ball is dropped?  Yes, I realize that botl would be different than other relief areas, but I don't see that as a problem.  It might eliminate some of the drops that are planned to induce the ball to roll so that the player will get to place the ball.

That’s what I was saying.  If we have this corridor to play from as long as the dropped ball is not closer to the hole than original place  why redrop if it bounces forward.  
  I must have missed in in 2019….the USGA-and I am guessing the R&A- had notes on the rules website about coming changes.  I do not recall any mention of botl relief changing from a relief corridor to a chosen drop area.  
 

Seems like an important omission to me!

[rogolf]

7 hours ago, Shilgy said:

That’s what I was saying.  If we have this corridor to play from as long as the dropped ball is not closer to the hole than original place  why redrop if it bounces forward.  
  I must have missed in in 2019….the USGA-and I am guessing the R&A- had notes on the rules website about coming changes.  I do not recall any mention of botl relief changing from a relief corridor to a chosen drop area.  
 

Seems like an important omission to me!

Yes, you missed it, and it's clearly in Rule 17.1d(2).

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/procedure-for-taking-back-on-a-line-relief.html

[antip]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

Yes, you missed it, and it's clearly in Rule 17.1d(2).

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/procedure-for-taking-back-on-a-line-relief.html

Unfortunately, it just missed the minor technical detail..... By the way, if you take a BOL drop without indicating a reference point and the ball when dropped finishes forward of where it first touches the ground, there's a two stroke penalty if you play the ball from there.

And if any Committee has not adopted MLR E-12, that feature is still there.

2023 will see something new in this space, as yet we know not what.