Does a good driver swing ruin your iron swing?

[sfdoddsy]

As I’ve aged (now 60) my driver swing has become better and better.

 

I obviously don’t have the swing speed I used to have,  but thanks to a strongly positive AOA and decent fundamentals I am very efficient. My Trackman numbers are usually right where they should be.

 

However, it seems to me that the better my driving is, the worse my irons are.

 

I’ve always been a sweeper, but when I’m driving extra-well I seem to extra sweep.

 

Any easy solutions other than concentrating more and treating irons and tee shots as two different things?

[glk]

Not unusual at all.   Swings can have bias toward iron or driver and thus we struggle on one end of the bag or the other.

 

I've posted this numerous times - can watch the intro then if not interested in the 3D graphs stuff can skip ahead to the case studies of an driver bias and iron bias swing and what Tyler worked on with the players to improve - starts around the 30 minute mark.

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

I think the operative line is that you have a strongly positive AoA. If you bought a much higher lofted driver and got your AoA more level you'd have less trouble transitioning.

Edited November 2, 2021 by TheDeanAbides

[ezra76]

What is the main issue with the irons? Are you hitting them fat/thin or a directional issue?

 

I have the opposite problem. I never could hit a driver well and returning after 10yrs. not playing it got even worse. The irons have come back nicely so far but if you took my avg. drive distance and direction I'd be better off using a 3iron off the tee. 

[ShortGolfer]

I have two separate swings, one for irons and another for woods, as I generally don't want to take divots when teeing off.  I have taken the tee out from under the ball without advancing the ball!

 

I played my last round with just irons and a putter, and played  better.  I used a 4I off the tee. 

I practice my woods into a net after returning home after a round of nine holes.

Teaching myself to swing woods after I get warmed up from a round of golf.

 

I learned to swing a 3I forty years ago and just got back into golf this year.

Edited October 30, 2021 by ShortGolfer

[MonteScheinblum]

A very positive angle of attack is unnecessary and leads to issues with the irons.

 

A driver swing that produces 1 Down to 2 up will produce a good iron strike as well.

 

A swing that produces 5 or more up is from early and excess right tilt.  That isn’t efficient to strike an iron and no more efficient than a level swing with driver…often less efficient as well.

Edited October 30, 2021 by MonteScheinblum

[mikpga]

One Swing please…

[golfarb1]

5 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

A very positive angle of attack is unnecessary and leads to issues with the irons.

 

A driver swing that produces 1 Down to 2 up will produce a good iron strike as well.

 

A swing that produces 5 or more up is from early and excess right tilt.  That isn’t efficient to strike an iron and no more efficient than a level swing with driver…often less efficient as well.

 

LPGA players average 94 mph and + 3 with their drivers. These are averages so there are some LPGA players with more than +3. 

[TheDeanAbides]

3 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

 

LPGA players average 94 mph and + 3 with their drivers. These are averages so there are some LPGA players with more than +3. 

If you can't hit your irons then you have no business copying the AoA of the best players in the world. 

[hammersia]

I don’t think toasters on a stick help with the iron game either. I’m experimenting with strong 3s and mini drivers etc. to narrow the gap in head size and shaft length.

[oz dee cee]

What about the idea of essentially swinging one swing with subtle changes in set up through the bag? 
 

Like more right bend at address with longer clubs as opposed to a more neutral spine angle with irons? Subtle shifting of weight or pressure or mass at set up depending on the length of club? 
 

Anyone else do this? I think most do without even knowing it? Maybe? 

[glk]

1 hour ago, oz dee cee said:

What about the idea of essentially swinging one swing with subtle changes in set up through the bag? 
 

Like more right bend at address with longer clubs as opposed to a more neutral spine angle with irons? Subtle shifting of weight or pressure or mass at set up depending on the length of club? 
 

Anyone else do this? I think most do without even knowing it? Maybe? 

Adding right tilt at setup (reverse K) is problematic - leads to pivoting off the ball and retaining flexion in backswing - AMG has posted video's on this, see below.       The idea of one swing could work if every ball is either hit off the ground or teed up but we don't.    So dynamics to efficiently hit a driver or iron are slightly different which leads to having to make slight adjustments in the swing (see Tyler video I posted).    There are things one can get away with when swinging a driver and also when swinging an iron - unfortunately they are not one and the same - example, with irons, especially short irons, one can get away with more of a lateral slide but sliding with a driver is  really problematic.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKMNiPXnJKZ/

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by glk

[MountainKing]

7 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

 

LPGA players average 94 mph and + 3 with their drivers. These are averages so there are some LPGA players with more than +3. 

 

They're also elite players that practice more hours a week than we work.   

[Zitlow]

12 hours ago, mikpga said:

One Swing please…

 

Same swing different ball positions and stronger left hand grip as clubs get shorter. As clubs get shorter in length the leads and lie angles change. Turn the left hand progressively to the right as clubs get shorter. This will adjust for picking the ball up earlier in the arc so you don't hit it to the right. 

 

Driver left thumb at 12 o'clock, wedge left thumb at 2 o'clock. 

 

 

 

 

[Socrates]

I find that the better my iron mechanics are, the better I hit my driver.  Lately I let my setup get bad and it took some work to get into a better position.  My last round, I hit every fairway with every driver swing (9x). 

Warning- -Passive brag coming: Even knocked one out there 265y down the middle (+4° C and 61 yrs old - so it was crushed.  Better than sex!!).

[golfarb1]

Some more stats from Trackman Amateur Performance Study

Average amateur Driver 

Chs      93.4mph

AA.      -1.6 degrees 

Spin.     3275

Carry.    204

 

Optimally, for every  1 degree positive increase  in attack angle, carry increases ~2 yards. For every 1 degree increase in attack angle spin rate goes down ~88.
 

Optimal carry distance at 93 mph and -1.5 AA is 214.

Obviously optimal results are rarely if ever achievable . 
 

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by golfarb1

[golfarb1]

Golf is hard enough using one swing. It is a mistake to think that one needs two different swings , one for irons and one for a driver . That is not to say that iron swings are the same as driver swings , but the differences will happen automatically due to differences in setup positions .

Let’s  take a look at some obvious setup differences between a driver and irons

 

First Positive AA is  not possible if the ball is on the ground. With the ball on the ground a Positive  AA will result in either fat or thin strikes

 

   
 Differences in setup between Drivers and Irons 

1. Driver is teed up while irons ( except off of the tee )are played off of the ground. A positive angle of attack( hitting up) can only happen when the ball is teed up. Hitting up or having a positive AA with a driver means that the low point is behind the ball . 

Irons are played off of the ground ( except when played off if the tee). The low point of irons will then be in front of the  ball and a negative AA is required. 
2. The ball is played in the same place for all clubs. As the golfer widens his stance via moving his right foot away from the left  , the ball does NOT  move , but RELATIVE to the wider stance the ball is more forward . This wider stance affects a number of factors.  
 

A wider stance with a driver will increase total body tilt at setup, while a narrower stance with a wedge will decrease body tilt at setup. 
 A wider stance will place more weight on your rear foot, while a narrower stance will tend to balance the weight between your feet

A wider stance requires more lateral movement to weight your front foot in transition while a narrow stance requires little lateral movement . One characteristic of all great iron players is that they all have weighted their front foot at impact. 
A wider stance  at setup will encourage a hand position that is more towards the middle of your stance , while a narrow stance encourages a more forward hand position . This more forward hand position can be thought of as “presenting” forward shaft lean. The extreme version of this forward hand position is Hendrick Stenson . 
 

The drivers longer length by itself will result in setting up  a greater distance from the ball, while an irons shorter length will result in a setup closer to the ball. This longer distance to the ball will result in a slightly flatter swing

The drivers longer length will usually result in less hip bend towards the ball , while a wedges shorter length will result in more hip bend towards the ball

Most golfers make a fuller shoulder turn with a driver . To make a full shoulder turn , most golfers need to rotate their heads and move their heads laterally a little going back. Because most golfers make a less than full shoulder turn with their wedges, this head rotation and lateral movement will be less. 
To summarize change your setup , not your swing when hitting irons vs a driver .

 

 

 

 

[aenemated]

7 hours ago, oz dee cee said:

What about the idea of essentially swinging one swing with subtle changes in set up through the bag?

 

I initially learned watching Jack's "Golf My Way" over and over and over as a kid and that's a thing he states pretty clearly. I know my best scores happen on days I FEEL like all swings are the same.

[dvq9654]

This is based on one or two rounds, but I've recently tried to give up on the concept of teeing the ball high / hitting up on it. Honestly, trying to hit up on the ball does absolutely nothing for me 8/10 times. 

 

I've started to tee the ball barely above the crown or maybe a bit more and make an "iron swing". With a 9.25 degree driver, the result is a mid-to-low flight drive with way less movement than when I try to tee it higher. It is also at least as long (280-290), if not longer, due to the penetrating flight and roll (think Jaco Niemann).  

[MonteScheinblum]

6 hours ago, aenemated said:

 

I initially learned watching Jack's "Golf My Way" over and over and over as a kid and that's a thing he states pretty clearly. I know my best scores happen on days I FEEL like all swings are the same.

That’s most good players.

[AndersUK]

I have lost count of the number of times playing partners or I have either had great driving rounds or great iron rounds but seldom both together. 

 

There is a reason why Henrik Stenson prefers a 3 wood of the tee.  He is an amazing ball striker when hitting down on the ball.  Some elite players actually hit down on the driver for this same reason in that they are most comfortable with a negative attack angle - Matt Fitzpatrick being one of them.  Never going to be the longest off the tee with this approach but when you generate sufficient club head speed you can make it work.

[bluedot]

On 10/30/2021 at 7:38 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

A very positive angle of attack is unnecessary and leads to issues with the irons.

 

A driver swing that produces 1 Down to 2 up will produce a good iron strike as well.

 

A swing that produces 5 or more up is from early and excess right tilt.  That isn’t efficient to strike an iron and no more efficient than a level swing with driver…often less efficient as well.

As usual, this is dead on.  I think the age of the OP and the "evolution" of his AOA while his iron play "devolves" is the telltale sign.

 

I'm 69, and went thru this EXACT issue; I did a full swing rebuild with a really good teaching pro because of it.  The very first day, he showed me the AOA numbers for my irons on Trackman, and they were around +2.5 on average.  He explained to me that the "early and excess right tilt" that Monte references works fine for a driver, but not at all for irons; it leads to a ton of thin and low right shots off the ground. 

 

About half way thru our work, he told me that he thought I had "functional immobility" in my hips that was causing me to have to throw my upper body up and out to get out of the way because I just couldn't keep turning correctly; again, works ok off a tee, but a disaster off the ground.  We could "pose" me in the positions that he wanted me to get to, and I could do it for 9-to-3 partial swings, but with full swings, I just couldn't get it, and he KNEW I was practicing and trying really hard to implement the stuff we were working on.

 

Ultimately, the "cure" for me was to get some serious hip mobility (as differentiated from flexibility!) work done with a PT that has a golf-specific training facility.  I think senior golfers are MUCH more prone to this issue than most of us realize because it's such an incremental change/decline over the years. (I would add that I was extremely fit at the time; a runner, worked out several times a week, no extra weight, regular stretching routines, etc.)  Senior golfers burn a LOT of daylight and mental energy trying to fix their swing, when the issue is a relatively simple physical problem that can be fixed over a period of several months with some diligent work. 

 

Now two years down the road, I hit irons and hybrids better (and longer!) than I did 10 years ago.  The swing changes were really important, but they did NOT work until I addressed the physical issue.  And I'd add that at an iron fitting last month, my AOA probably averaged -2.5 instead of being +2.5.  I was proud of that!

 

[MonteScheinblum]

6 hours ago, AndersUK said:

I have lost count of the number of times playing partners or I have either had great driving rounds or great iron rounds but seldom both together. 

 

There is a reason why Henrik Stenson prefers a 3 wood of the tee.  He is an amazing ball striker when hitting down on the ball.  Some elite players actually hit down on the driver for this same reason in that they are most comfortable with a negative attack angle - Matt Fitzpatrick being one of them.  Never going to be the longest off the tee with this approach but when you generate sufficient club head speed you can make it work.

Actually that’s not true.  You can hit down 1 to up 2 with a properly fit driver and get the same launch conditions and distance from over right tilting and hitting up 5.

[TheDeanAbides]

19 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Actually that’s not true.  You can hit down 1 to up 2 with a properly fit driver and get the same launch conditions and distance from over right tilting and hitting up 5.

Exactly.. As I said at the top of this thread, if the OP lofts up on his driver he can use a swing that works for both. 

[stevehj]

On 11/1/2021 at 9:25 AM, bluedot said:

Ultimately, the "cure" for me was to get some serious hip mobility (as differentiated from flexibility!) work done with a PT that has a golf-specific training facility.  I think senior golfers are MUCH more prone to this issue than most of us realize because it's such an incremental change/decline over the years. (I would add that I was extremely fit at the time; a runner, worked out several times a week, no extra weight, regular stretching routines, etc.)  Senior golfers burn a LOT of daylight and mental energy trying to fix their swing, when the issue is a relatively simple physical problem that can be fixed over a period of several months with some diligent work. 

 

Can you elaborate on what you did to increase your hip mobility?

[bluedot]

11 hours ago, stevehj said:

 

Can you elaborate on what you did to increase your hip mobility?

It’s a long list.  A lot of soft tissue work with a lacrosse ball, 90-90’s every day for many months and still every day I play, and a lot of other stuff like Keiser speed cable pulls in the gym.  The folks I work with re-evaluate me periodically and change my workouts every few months, and hip mobility stuff is always sprinkled throughout the workouts.

[phizzy30]

To answer your question, yes it can.  When I'm playing well, my swing tends to shallow out quite a bit which means my AoA with driver is around +3 and I make very little to no divots with irons.  When my swing is off is when I start getting too steep and I make large divots and start to hit down with driver.  These are two extreme opposite ends though of the spectrum. 

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by phizzy30

[phizzy30]

13 hours ago, stevehj said:

 

Can you elaborate on what you did to increase your hip mobility?

I do a lot of static and dynamic stretching with my clients especially the older ones to increase hip mobility.  Soft tissue work with a tennis ball and/or foam roller helps relief tension in that area as well.  Heating pad and massage are nice additions too. 

[Haroputt]

Swing feels the same to me. There is a lot of face rotation in my swing. The release is different for my irons than my woods. The rhythm of the swing is similar. My iron swing is fraction more upright and when I swing my best it feels like my arms release upwards and skywards and I produce a neutral /draw pattern

For my optimal wood swing I tend to let my arms go at a fraction more flatter swing plane  For my best results with driver I tend to feel more of a “block” release that produce a higher straighest  fade pattern. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Haroputt

[Wormkiller]

The driver swing and iron swing aren't two independent things. If you think they are then that's just going to create confusion and do nothing good. More things to think about on course equals more paralysis by analysis. Only a few variables change, relating mainly to ball position and the club being longer.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Wormkiller