Is Speed Training Worth the investment: A conversation

[Trippels]

43 minutes ago, Barfolomew said:

All approaches are correct.... getting faster works no matter what you do. Just make sure its healthy 🐓

 

Swinging clubs harder

Weighted clubs

Gym/working out

Secret Sauce

 

But the secret sauce in my opinion from a hardcore addict Slow Pitch Softball missile pi55ing laser beamer is the MENTAL approach..... just swinging harder.  Deciding to swing waaay faster is under utilized as so many look waaay too slow 🐫 like their on a Sunday afternoon bike ride lol

 

But once again dont hurt yourself you gotta EARN it by working your way up or your back will be screwed. 

 

And on the same note you also have to EARN the accuracy side of swinging very hard.  I had to earn it and looking for answers too but I like hitting hard lol, its why Im currently experimenting with a 10x shaft. One reason Bryson can do it is he went through the lumps of sucking, paid his dues and is more accurate now.... Did you guys see how much more accurate he was then the other guys at the LD comp!  Remember Rory could not do it.... Last fall Rory tried to be like Bryson and went into a 6 month slump and backed off.... because Rory wasn't willing to see it through and suck even longer to pay his dues of controlling swinging very hard and so he backed off.... its why I respect bomb droppers

 

Agree, mental block is one of the biggest obstacles for most. "Swing as hard as you can" sounds like easy instructions, but it really takes practice and reviewing to do. Most I've seen when I ask them to swing 100% of their max are holding back. 

[SirFuego]

The current state of research is that there isn't enough research to support that one method is "better" than another.  Any claim made by a company that benefits financially from you buying their product/service will be biased in some way towards their product.  There is no way a company like SuperSpeed will claim that other speed training methods are superior to theirs.  That's not to say they are "lying", but simply that their marketing will be biased towards their product and most companies won't release their own internal research either.  There are a lot of great theories and anecdotes being thrown around, but it's probably disingenuous at this point for anyone to claim that they hold the holy grail to getting faster.

 

IMO, whatever is "optimal" for speed training should be left to academics. 

 

The reality is that there is unlikely to be a single "optimal" way to speed train.  Almost every method stated in this thread have some support that they "work" -- at least for some people.  In fact, many golfers will probably respond differently to different types or combinations of speed training.  Some may not respond at all.  Nobody knows until they try.

 

Methods that I've seen suggest work, at least to some extent:

1. Variably weighted sticks with a commercial protocol (superspeed, stack, etc.)
2. A single weighted stick slightly lighter than a driver (e.g. blue superspeed stick) with a reduced-volume protocol (what Par4Success seems to suggest)
3. Counterweighted speed stick (superspeed c)
4. Maximize ball speed by hitting actual golf ball with driver and/or irons (Bryson/Berkshire)
5. Swinging a club as fast as possible without hitting a ball (some alternatives I've seen by places like 18 Strong)
6. Getting mobile (TPI, Par4Succcess, etc.)
7. Getting strong (TPI, Par4Success, etc.)
8. Doing explosive exercises in the gym (TPI, Par4Succcess, etc.)
9. Getting a lesson to improve technique
10. Some other technique I'm sure I've missed
11. Incorporating non-dominant work (probably applies to all of the above)
12. Any combination of the above

The bottom line is that I would ask myself the following questions:

1. Do I already get injured or sore from swinging a golf club?  If so, should I really be trying to get faster without addressing that first?
2. What timeframe am I looking to improve my speed?  Do I really care if I see results 3 months from now vs 6 months vs 1 year?
3. What method(s) do I think will actually work?  Placebo effect is real.
4. What method(s) can I actually do?  If I can't go to a driving range or hit into a net multiple times a week -- maybe hitting a driver as hard as I can isn't the best method.
5. What method(s) WILL I actually do?  There is an old adage in fitness that the best workout is the one that you will actually do.

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by SirFuego

[Gamble Gamble]

i believe @MonteScheinblum said at a clinic that grip strength (think those squeeze machines) creates your ceiling for club head speed.  There are obviously other factors, but your swing can only go as fast as your grip will allow.

 

[naj959]

9 hours ago, RCGA said:

This is my favorite video on swinging faster. 

 

Bryson has devoted his life to golf and maximizing ball speed. Works on it all the time. Then you have bunch of guys just messing around, cranking up their internal governor and nearly match Bryson after a few hard swings.  

 

 

Great watch and there were some very interesting nuggets dropped by Bryson. He tells the first guy to feel like he leaves his hands up rotates and then releases hard through the ball. Similar to a popular teacher. I'm going to give this intention of being fastest through the strike a whirl.

[milesgiles]

20 hours ago, RCGA said:

This is my favorite video on swinging faster. 

 

Bryson has devoted his life to golf and maximizing ball speed. Works on it all the time. Then you have bunch of guys just messing around, cranking up their internal governor and nearly match Bryson after a few hard swings.  

 

 

 

its not really apples to apples.. Bryson optimized his swing for accuracy first, then worked on speeding it up. Its not a long drive swing, its a swing accurate enough to win on tour, which obviously the kids there arent 

[ShortGolfer]

I know I could swing faster if I had spotter(s) so that I'd never lose a ball.

Right now, pace of play is more important than how fast I swing or how far the ball goes.

[milesgiles]

18 hours ago, Toybota said:

Thanks for the response. 

Would swinging fast with 7 & 8 Irons be a good intro to up my SS?

That was I can still maintain my swing mechanic and work on my strike at the same time. 

 

I come from a background of cycling and Triathlon so my muscle compositions are mainly slow twitch.

 

my (theoretical) max has gone up 23 yards in 7 weeks BUT a substantial part of that has been changing my technique to optimise speed, not just wanging it back and forth and hoping for the best.

 

Another problem I have with superspeed and its variants.. you are supposed to forget about technique and just move it as quickly as possible? I don't see that helping anyone to do anything other than shove it in the woods twice as hard as you did previously 

[Myherobobhope]

45 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

my (theoretical) max has gone up 23 yards in 7 weeks BUT a substantial part of that has been changing my technique to optimise speed, not just wanging it back and forth and hoping for the best.

 

Another problem I have with superspeed and its variants.. you are supposed to forget about technique and just move it as quickly as possible? I don't see that helping anyone to do anything other than shove it in the woods twice as hard as you did previously 

On the just swing faster front, I think there are some positives and negatives... I've definitely experience both.

 

On the positive side: The first few weeks of training had me really getting through the ball and swinging with intention. I was really focused on my power generation sequence, and doing it well. It was great on the course. I was hitting the ball consistently and consistently farther. It was less "SPEED GAINS" and more just efficiently moving the club head.

 

On the negative side: After more time, my swing started to breakdown as I chased speed and gave up fundamentals... especially with the lighter weight sticks. I was more focused on WHIPPING it then making a good turn, which in turn had a negative impact on my swing. 

 

The downside of the every other day training is there is no room for actual golf swings in terms of speed training. I will probably add some "on the ball" work in in my next session to make sure my contact and ball flight remain decent.

[milesgiles]

15 minutes ago, Myherobobhope said:

On the just swing faster front, I think there are some positives and negatives... I've definitely experience both.

 

On the positive side: The first few weeks of training had me really getting through the ball and swinging with intention. I was really focused on my power generation sequence, and doing it well. It was great on the course. I was hitting the ball consistently and consistently farther. It was less "SPEED GAINS" and more just efficiently moving the club head.

 

On the negative side: After more time, my swing started to breakdown as I chased speed and gave up fundamentals... especially with the lighter weight sticks. I was more focused on WHIPPING it then making a good turn, which in turn had a negative impact on my swing. 

 

The downside of the every other day training is there is no room for actual golf swings in terms of speed training. I will probably add some "on the ball" work in in my next session to make sure my contact and ball flight remain decent.

 

the way I guard against this tendency is obviously to play at least once a week, so that I'll know if Im all over the map when it matters, but also to film my swing when I practise, and even when working on speed. I know my bad tendencies, and I try very hard to avoid them when swinging flat out. The opposite of superspeed.

[RCGA]

1 hour ago, milesgiles said:

 

its not really apples to apples.. Bryson optimized his swing for accuracy first, then worked on speeding it up. Its not a long drive swing, its a swing accurate enough to win on tour, which obviously the kids there arent 

 

Within a half dozen swings, a few guys nearly matched Bryson's ball speed.  And with a world class coach, they could be unbelievable drivers of the ball, given that their main job is being a YouTube golfer. 

 

And it's not like Bryson is winding up with 200+ ball speed on every tee. If he was, he'd be averaging 350y

 

 

[milesgiles]

32 minutes ago, RCGA said:

 

Within a half dozen swings, a few guys nearly matched Bryson's ball speed.  And with a world class coach, they could be unbelievable drivers of the ball, given that their main job is being a YouTube golfer. 

 

And it's not like Bryson is winding up with 200+ ball speed on every tee. If he was, he'd be averaging 350y

 

 

 

when any of them are on tour and winning majors, you can compare. There is a bit more to it than having a world class coach 

[Myherobobhope]

37 minutes ago, RCGA said:

 

Within a half dozen swings, a few guys nearly matched Bryson's ball speed.  And with a world class coach, they could be unbelievable drivers of the ball, given that their main job is being a YouTube golfer. 

 

And it's not like Bryson is winding up with 200+ ball speed on every tee. If he was, he'd be averaging 350y

 

 

I don’t know enough about them to know what his swing speed looked like…

 

200 ball speed with range balls is insane… that’s 130+ chs.

[RCGA]

8 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

when any of them are on tour and winning majors, you can compare. There is a bit more to it than having a world class coach 

 

I'm not saying they'll be amazing golfers. I'm saying they already have the genetic potential to be amazing drivers.

 

You can coach accuracy. You can't coach 200 ball speed with a range ball.  

[milesgiles]

5 minutes ago, RCGA said:

 

I'm not saying they'll be amazing golfers. I'm saying they already have the genetic potential to be amazing drivers.

 

You can coach accuracy. You can't coach 200 ball speed with a range ball.  

 

Its not that unusual at all to see amateur speeds over 180 now, Ive played with a few and I believe it will be the minimum for tour pro's in the next few years.

 

Its highly, highly unusual to actually be hitting enough fairways to score at those speeds. Thats what makes Bryson stand out. Its years of practise for hours a day to get anywhere close to that speed and accuracy. Coaching is only a very small part of that, not many tour players had world class recognised coaches before they were absolutely outstanding first.

[Myherobobhope]

18 hours ago, SirFuego said:

The current state of research is that there isn't enough research to support that one method is "better" than another.  Any claim made by a company that benefits financially from you buying their product/service will be biased in some way towards their product.  There is no way a company like SuperSpeed will claim that other speed training methods are superior to theirs.  That's not to say they are "lying", but simply that their marketing will be biased towards their product and most companies won't release their own internal research either.  There are a lot of great theories and anecdotes being thrown around, but it's probably disingenuous at this point for anyone to claim that they hold the holy grail to getting faster.

 

IMO, whatever is "optimal" for speed training should be left to academics. 

 

The reality is that there is unlikely to be a single "optimal" way to speed train.  Almost every method stated in this thread have some support that they "work" -- at least for some people.  In fact, many golfers will probably respond differently to different types or combinations of speed training.  Some may not respond at all.  Nobody knows until they try.

 

Methods that I've seen suggest work, at least to some extent:

1. Variably weighted sticks with a commercial protocol (superspeed, stack, etc.)
2. A single weighted stick slightly lighter than a driver (e.g. blue superspeed stick) with a reduced-volume protocol (what Par4Success seems to suggest)
3. Counterweighted speed stick (superspeed c)
4. Maximize ball speed by hitting actual golf ball with driver and/or irons (Bryson/Berkshire)
5. Swinging a club as fast as possible without hitting a ball (some alternatives I've seen by places like 18 Strong)
6. Getting mobile (TPI, Par4Succcess, etc.)
7. Getting strong (TPI, Par4Success, etc.)
8. Doing explosive exercises in the gym (TPI, Par4Succcess, etc.)
9. Getting a lesson to improve technique
10. Some other technique I'm sure I've missed
11. Incorporating non-dominant work (probably applies to all of the above)
12. Any combination of the above

The bottom line is that I would ask myself the following questions:

1. Do I already get injured or sore from swinging a golf club?  If so, should I really be trying to get faster without addressing that first?
2. What timeframe am I looking to improve my speed?  Do I really care if I see results 3 months from now vs 6 months vs 1 year?
3. What method(s) do I think will actually work?  Placebo effect is real.
4. What method(s) can I actually do?  If I can't go to a driving range or hit into a net multiple times a week -- maybe hitting a driver as hard as I can isn't the best method.
5. What method(s) WILL I actually do?  There is an old adage in fitness that the best workout is the one that you will actually do.

 

This is an awesome post. I think the bottom portion is super important, and if it works for you it works. 
 

and that’s pretty much it.

[hammersia]

4 hours ago, Myherobobhope said:

On the just swing faster front, I think there are some positives and negatives... I've definitely experience both.

 

On the positive side: The first few weeks of training had me really getting through the ball and swinging with intention. I was really focused on my power generation sequence, and doing it well. It was great on the course. I was hitting the ball consistently and consistently farther. It was less "SPEED GAINS" and more just efficiently moving the club head.

 

On the negative side: After more time, my swing started to breakdown as I chased speed and gave up fundamentals... especially with the lighter weight sticks. I was more focused on WHIPPING it then making a good turn, which in turn had a negative impact on my swing. 

 

The downside of the every other day training is there is no room for actual golf swings in terms of speed training. I will probably add some "on the ball" work in in my next session to make sure my contact and ball flight remain decent.

I think you are edging towards saying that by focusing on swinging faster, the side effects are a more functional, better sequenced, more efficient swing. 
 

it’s only when you moved to a whippy light stick, far removed from the intent of hitting a ball, that your swing broke down a bit. 

[Krt22]

3 hours ago, RCGA said:

 

I'm not saying they'll be amazing golfers. I'm saying they already have the genetic potential to be amazing drivers.

 

You can coach accuracy. You can't coach 200 ball speed with a range ball.  

While I agree genetic potential has a legitimate role in things, I don't agree that speed and accuracy can't both be teached. With force plates, 3d motion capture, etc, what exactly generates speed is becoming more and more understood. You can't teach potential, but you can teach to reach one's maximum potential, which very few people ever achieve. If well established PGA tour pros can add significant CHS in the middle of their careers, so can any one else IMHO

Edited December 15, 2021 by Krt22

[Myherobobhope]

6 minutes ago, hammersia said:

I think you are edging towards saying that by focusing on swinging faster, the side effects are a more functional, better sequenced, more efficient swing. 
 

it’s only when you moved to a whippy light stick, far removed from the intent of hitting a ball, that your swing broke down a bit. 

This is a good point… it’s also tied to having 8 opportunities to move fast and try to set new records… I lost focus on my big goal for a short term win and it hurt my golf game.

 

if only that had some sort of larger lesson to carry over to the rest of my life!

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, Krt22 said:

While I agree genetic potential has a legitimate role in things, I don't agree that speed and accuracy can't both be teached. With force plates, 3d motion capture, etc, what exactly generates speed is becoming more and more understood. You can't teach potential, but you can teach to reach one's maximum potential, which very few people ever achieve. If well established PGA tour pros can add significant CHS in the middle of their careers, so can any one else IMHO

 

In a lot of ways it’s simpler to teach speed than accuracy. Barring injury and illness I think you can get close to your speed potential with pretty limited time and effort, including some effort in the gym.

 

Accuracy at speed however..we know how much some of the greatest golfers to have lived have struggled with that. Tiger, Rory, etc etc. The idea that a youtube nobody is a bit of coaching away from being straight and long is laughable 

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, milesgiles said:

 

In a lot of ways it’s simpler to teach speed than accuracy. Barring injury and illness I think you can get close to your speed potential with pretty limited time and effort, including some effort in the gym.

 

Accuracy at speed however..we know how much some of the greatest golfers to have lived have struggled with that. Tiger, Rory, etc etc. The idea that a youtube nobody is a bit of coaching away from being straight and long is laughable 

I disagree, I don't think it's that straight forward. In order to reach your true speed potential, you have to have to have solid mechanics with very few speed robbing compensations (and understand what generates speed). As you improve your mechanics, speed and accuracy both improve. Very few golfers ever get their swings to this point

[milesgiles]

2 hours ago, Krt22 said:

I disagree, I don't think it's that straight forward. In order to reach your true speed potential, you have to have to have solid mechanics with very few speed robbing compensations (and understand what generates speed). As you improve your mechanics, speed and accuracy both improve. Very few golfers ever get their swings to this point

 

only speaking from personal experience. Made a substantial improvement in speed with very little time, knowledge or effort. Compared to trying to overcome swing flaws that lead to inconsistency, which takes months and years, its been incredibly straightforward

[Myherobobhope]

48 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

only speaking from personal experience. Made a substantial improvement in speed with very little time, knowledge or effort. Compared to trying to overcome swing flaws that lead to inconsistency, which takes months and years, its been incredibly straightforward

Eh... I think you are focusing on your own experience.. and there is a lot of gray area in this particular topic.

 

I'd be interested to see Kyle Berkshire try to hit it straight... we know Jim Furyk isn't going to gain much yardge!

 

I think this is also player / swing dependent... I'm also not sure I believe Bryson's "First I got straight, then I got long".

 

Fundamentally, adding speed with no control is useless... but they aren't independent variables... The longer you are, the farther you are going to miss, but getting faster has some positive control benefits as well (in my experience).

 

Speed will just accentuate your flaws, but swinging faster and missing bigger doesn't mean you weren't MISSING before... At what point those misses get you into trouble become the question. 

 

I've found that my best "fast" swing is also my most straight swing... but that's just my experience (but I'm not trying to lengthen my swing or rock in my stance)

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, Myherobobhope said:

Eh... I think you are focusing on your own experience.. and there is a lot of gray area in this particular topic.

 

I'd be interested to see Kyle Berkshire try to hit it straight... we know Jim Furyk isn't going to gain much yardge!

 

I think this is also player / swing dependent... I'm also not sure I believe Bryson's "First I got straight, then I got long".

 

Fundamentally, adding speed with no control is useless... but they aren't independent variables... The longer you are, the farther you are going to miss, but getting faster has some positive control benefits as well (in my experience).

 

Speed will just accentuate your flaws, but swinging faster and missing bigger doesn't mean you weren't MISSING before... At what point those misses get you into trouble become the question. 

 

I've found that my best "fast" swing is also my most straight swing... but that's just my experience (but I'm not trying to lengthen my swing or rock in my stance)

 

id guess every tour player is maxed out for their optimal speed/accuracy. Furyk was obviously always a rhythm player who didnt like to force his swing for fear of losing accuracy. 

 

Berkshires swing looks pretty technically good to my eyes. Seems to do most of the things youd like to see in a straight hitter in terms  of flattening the shaft and rotating.  Bryson wasnt outstandingly long his first two years on tour far as I recall, certainly not 130mph plus.

[Myherobobhope]

9 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

id guess every tour player is maxed out for their optimal speed/accuracy. Furyk was obviously always a rhythm player who didnt like to force his swing for fear of losing accuracy. 

 

Berkshires swing looks pretty technically good to my eyes. Seems to do most of the things youd like to see in a straight hitter in terms  of flattening the shaft and rotating.  Bryson wasnt outstandingly long his first two years on tour far as I recall, certainly not 130mph plus.

Yeah, on the other side all tour players have to be a certain amount of long and straight… Rory obviously messed up his game chasing speed but I don’t know exactly what he did… 

 

I saw a Twitter post the other day showing who had gained distance but lost strokes against the average. It was interesting.

 

id bet (with no real data to back this up) that people who pick up speed drop strokes pretty consistently at the amateur level. Probably not as many as are advertised, but I’d bet the average golfer is improving by getting faster… 

 

that also might be a result of just swinging a club 3x a week though!

[Righty to Lefty]

On 12/14/2021 at 2:52 PM, bladehunter said:

Now I also love this post . I never considered my speed opposite side.  I switch hit in baseball. More power lefty.  Much more. I’m going to see how fast I swing a golf club lefty today. Lol.   Great info !  Thanks for posting it. 

The important thing that I noticed between my right and left hand swing is that my lefty swing "feels" like a punching motion driven by my trail arm whereas my righty swing "feels" like I am throwing a frisbee with a straight lead arm.  I am definitely left hand dominant and thus it makes sense to me but obviously the punching motion is much more powerful at applying leverage to the shaft.  The bottom (left) hand is in a dominant position in my lefty swing and in non dominant position in my righty swing and this dynamic creates some 20 to 25 mph difference in speed.  The more aggressively you can stop the handle end the more speed and power you will generate....period. 

 

You are not actually accelerating the club head...you are stopping the handle end so aggressively that the net effect is that the club head rapidly accelerates but it is harder to detect when your body is rotating. That was the premise for me making the videos for my buddy because you can easily feel the huge difference in force created if you don't allow the body to rotate. You never "crack the whip" if you don't stop the handle end and that is why if you try to accelerate the clubhead you will be slower.  There is a point in the golf swing, tennis serve, baseball swing where the handle goes no further forward and this forces the body to rotate and snap the clubhead past the hands but your body working in opposition to this force actually creates stability by reducing club face rotation.  It is not a flip though it may "feel" that way because in order for you to actually flip you would have to stall your  body rotation to actually reduce the force created to allow the hands to over power the club head. This is easily done at certain points in the swing motion where the speed of the club is moving at slow speed.  If your body is efficiently creating leverage your hands don't stand a chance at manipulating the club head and will be along for the ride and just holding on for dear life!  

 

When you are doing the stop the handle drill without rotation you will feel tremendous amounts of force put on the hands, yet when that force is paired with body rotation that force and speed is transferred to the club so that force is not felt as vividly, but it is still there, and that is very important to realize, feel, and understand. Most people never feel this dynamic because they tend to only do things right or left handed but I am ambidextrous  and I have always been high speed left handed and average speed right handed.  As a switch hitter I think you will quickly tap into these senses.  Let me know if you have any other questions or I was unclear on something.  

[Nels55]

13 hours ago, Krt22 said:

I disagree, I don't think it's that straight forward. In order to reach your true speed potential, you have to have to have solid mechanics with very few speed robbing compensations (and understand what generates speed). As you improve your mechanics, speed and accuracy both improve. Very few golfers ever get their swings to this point

Makes sense that long and accurate is an indication of solid swing mechanics.  The longest and most accurate golfer in the world right now is arguably Bryson DeChambeau which makes his swing mechanics possibly the best in the world?  Obviously the jury is still out on this one LOL, but you never know...   

[bladehunter]

3 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Makes sense that long and accurate is an indication of solid swing mechanics.  The longest and most accurate golfer in the world right now is arguably Bryson DeChambeau which makes his swing mechanics possibly the best in the world?  Obviously the jury is still out on this one LOL, but you never know...   

what about Bubba.  I mean would any teacher teach his swing without knowing his results ? Nope.   I don’t buy that it needs to be textbook …… fast people are fast. Slow people are slow.  Slow folks can get faster ….. but you can also slow down fast people by making them conform to “ P this or that  ideal positions “.  

[hammersia]

28 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

what about Bubba.  I mean would any teacher teach his swing without knowing his results ? Nope.   I don’t buy that it needs to be textbook …… fast people are fast. Slow people are slow.  Slow folks can get faster ….. but you can also slow down fast people by making them conform to “ P this or that  ideal positions “.  

 

Seems to me that Bubba has a lot of other issues going on that confuse the picture. I've watched him a few times at The Open and never seen him play well, always trying to put 60 yards of shape on a shot when it isn't required. I would wager when he plays well his mechanics, including his dip into the ball and ground reaction jumping in the air, are exceptionally good. He doesn't like setting up square, but that's not a fault. 

 

I certainly don't think Bryson has the best mechanics, I'm sure he will get injured, Finau is the best.

 

 

[bladehunter]

24 minutes ago, hammersia said:

 

Seems to me that Bubba has a lot of other issues going on that confuse the picture. I've watched him a few times at The Open and never seen him play well, always trying to put 60 yards of shape on a shot when it isn't required. I would wager when he plays well his mechanics, including his dip into the ball and ground reaction jumping in the air, are exceptionally good. He doesn't like setting up square, but that's not a fault. 

 

I certainly don't think Bryson has the best mechanics, I'm sure he will get injured, Finau is the best.

 

 

Sure. I agree on Bubba as far as game.   But my point wasn’t that his mechanics are bad. Just that they don’t fit convention , and yet he still generates huge ballspeed and Carry numbers for such a unimpressive specimen.  
 

The previous point was that to make speed you needed perfect positions .  Or strive to get there. I don’t agree. Unless the ideals of perfect positions  is extremely broad.  In which case it’s a non starter argument.  
 

[milesgiles]

23 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Sure. I agree on Bubba as far as game.   But my point wasn’t that his mechanics are bad. Just that they don’t fit convention , and yet he still generates huge ballspeed and Carry numbers for such a unimpressive specimen.  
 

The previous point was that to make speed you needed perfect positions .  Or strive to get there. I don’t agree. Unless the ideals of perfect positions  is extremely broad.  In which case it’s a non starter argument.  
 

 

which is really why Im saying its easier to gain speed than improve mechanics, all things being equal. I agree perfect mechanics are not necessary