Reorienting ball on the putting green

[denkea]

On the putting green.  Once I have marked and cleaned my ball, replace it and picked up the marker can I reorient the alignment of the ball without marking it again?

 

I know you cannot move the ball but can you turn it in place to orient the alignment line?

[antip]

31 minutes ago, denkea said:

On the putting green.  Once I have marked and cleaned my ball, replace it and picked up the marker can I reorient the alignment of the ball without marking it again?

 

I know you cannot move the ball but can you turn it in place to orient the alignment line?

No. Rotating the ball is defined within Rule 14.1a as "lifting" the ball. And the ball may not be lifted without being marked. 

[denkea]

4 minutes ago, antip said:

No. Rotating the ball is defined within Rule 14.1a as "lifting" the ball. And the ball may not be lifted without being marked. 

That's what I thought but watching Daniel Berger yesterday he bent down and reoriented his ball and I thought to myself "now he needs to pick up his marker" but he went ahead and putted.  No ball marker there.  

Just needed to reaffirm my original understanding.  

[MisterT]

6 minutes ago, denkea said:

That's what I thought but watching Daniel Berger yesterday he bent down and reoriented his ball and I thought to myself "now he needs to pick up his marker" but he went ahead and putted.  No ball marker there.  

 

You had to have missed it. Every one of Daniel Berger's putts was televised and it would have been noticed had he not marked the ball before reorienting it.

[denkea]

4 minutes ago, MisterT said:

You had to have missed it. Every one of Daniel Berger's putts was televised and it would have been noticed had he not marked the ball before reorienting it.

I don't think I did but now, I believe, they won't take any call ins for rules violations.  Not that I would even consider it but others might.  

[denkea]

22 minutes ago, antip said:

No. Rotating the ball is defined within Rule 14.1a as "lifting" the ball. And the ball may not be lifted without being marked. 

Antip ~~~~ Respectfully, I cannot find 14.1a refering to define rotating.  Can you point me in the right direction.  Thanks

[sui generis]

18 minutes ago, antip said:

Rotating the ball is defined within Rule 14.1a as "lifting" the ball. And the ball may not be lifted without being marked. 

 

There's a Rule change I would support. (Rules@ usga.org hears about that one from me about once a year.) Simply because calling things things that they aren't isn't helpful. Furthermore, calling something moved when it hasn't moved in a tough sell. 🤨

[antip]

4 minutes ago, denkea said:

Antip ~~~~ Respectfully, I cannot find 14.1a refering to define rotating.  Can you point me in the right direction.  Thanks

Sorry, I misdirected, it is the sentence immediately before 14.1a, plain old 14.1. This sentence presents the internal definition of "lifting".

[antip]

5 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

There's a Rule change I would support. (Rules@ usga.org hears about that one from me about once a year.) Simply because calling things things that they aren't isn't helpful. Furthermore, calling something moved when it hasn't moved in a tough sell. 🤨

I'm sympathetic. The Rule book, too many times IMO, defines plain English words into something other than their normal meaning. And that makes the intent of the Rules less accessible. 

[denkea]

4 minutes ago, antip said:

Sorry, I misdirected, it is the sentence immediately before 14.1a, plain old 14.1. This sentence presents the internal definition of "lifting".

Thank you Antip

There we go:

"This Rule applies to the deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest, which includes picking up the ball by hand, rotating it or otherwise deliberately causing it to move from its spot."

[antip]

Just now, denkea said:

Thank you Antip

There we go:

"This Rule applies to the deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest, which includes picking up the ball by hand, rotating it or otherwise deliberately causing it to move from its spot."

And to complete the circle, it is 14.1a that affirms such lifting requires the ball to be marked before the lift or the player gets the 1SP.

[Newby]

"This Rule applies to the deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest, which includes picking up the ball by hand, rotating it or otherwise deliberately causing it to move from its spot."

 

The use and positioning of otherwise irritates me a little.

Removing it is grammatically correct and makes sense, its presence seems redundant.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, denkea said:

Thank you Antip

There we go:

"This Rule applies to the deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest, which includes picking up the ball by hand, rotating it or otherwise deliberately causing it to move from its spot."

Imo, there is also Rule 9.4b, which would penalize the player for deliberately touching his ball on the putting green should he not comply with 14.1a.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

"This Rule applies to the deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest, which includes picking up the ball by hand, rotating it or otherwise deliberately causing it to move from its spot."

 

The use and positioning of otherwise irritates me a little.

Removing it is grammatically correct and makes sense, its presence seems redundant.

 

I must be lacking the English knowledge here but I do not understand your comment. A player might deliberately move the ball with their foot or a club and that is also a breach not covered by 'picking up the ball by hand, rotating it'.

[amace04]

21 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I must be lacking the English knowledge here but I do not understand your comment. A player might deliberately move the ball with their foot or a club and that is also a breach not covered by 'picking up the ball by hand, rotating it'.

 

Take out "otherwise" and the sentence means the exact same thing, and is no less clear.

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I must be lacking the English knowledge here but I do not understand your comment. A player might deliberately move the ball with their foot or a club and that is also a breach not covered by 'picking up the ball by hand, rotating it'.

What function does the word 'otherwise' serve in the sentence.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Newby said:

What function does the word 'otherwise' serve in the sentence.

 

In my foreign eyes it means 'by any means not already described', and it makes a lot of sense to me.

 

Maybe lords have taken us non-natives into account when drafting the text.

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, amace04 said:

 

Take out "otherwise" and the sentence means the exact same thing, 

 

Well, sort of it does but it would be poor language IMO.

 

That 'otherwise' excludes those two ways already mentioned of moving the ball. Thus omitting 'otherwise' would be repeating those two and that would be poor phrasing, afa I can see.

So, that word is there for clarity.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Well, sort of it does but it would be poor language IMO.

 

That 'otherwise' excludes those two ways already mentioned of moving the ball. Thus omitting 'otherwise' would be repeating those two and that would be poor phrasing, afa I can see.

So, that word is there for clarity.

It should say:-

 

This Rule applies to deliberately causing a player's ball to move from its spot, which includes picking up the ball by hand or rotating it.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Newby

[antip]

3 hours ago, Newby said:

It should say:-

 

This Rule applies to deliberately causing a player's ball to move from its spot, which includes picking up the ball by hand or rotating it.

 

 

That loses the definition of "lifting", which is critical to understanding many other rules.

[Newby]

Put it in the Definitions.

But does 'lifting' include anything else other than 'picking up the ball by hand or rotating it'?

[Mr. Bean]

12 minutes ago, Newby said:

Put it in the Definitions.

But does 'lifting' include anything else other than 'picking up the ball by hand or rotating it'?

 

A ball may also be lifted / picked up with a club.

[Mr. Bean]

10 hours ago, Newby said:

It should say:-

 

This Rule applies to deliberately causing a player's ball to move from its spot, which includes picking up the ball by hand or rotating it.

 

 

 

How about this:

 

This Rule applies to deliberately causing a player's ball to move from its spot, which includes lifting the ball or rotating it.

 

Or even better:

 

This Rule applies to deliberately causing a player's ball to move from its spot including lifting the ball or rotating it.

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[antip]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

Put it in the Definitions.

But does 'lifting' include anything else other than 'picking up the ball by hand or rotating it'?

Yes, limited only by your imagination. And the other 40 or so internal definitions?

[bobfoster]

On 2/28/2022 at 10:54 AM, Mr. Bean said:

"This Rule applies to the deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest, which includes picking up the ball by hand, rotating it or otherwise deliberately causing it to move from its spot."

 

The use and positioning of otherwise irritates me a little.

Removing it is grammatically correct and makes sense, its presence seems redundant.

This ^^^ It really irritates me. "Otherwise" implies that lifting the ball, or rotating it, are both moving the ball "from its spot". In fact, rotating it (e.g., to do something like adjust an alignment line on the ball because you think you aren't playing quite enough break - very common, and sounds like what Berger possibly did) moves the ball in its spot, not from its spot. The ball is still in the identical spot, it's just rotated on its vertical axis.

 

Removing "otherwise" (or replacing it with something like "or in any way") would produce a clearer rule, with less ambiguity. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by bobfoster

[Mr. Bean]

You need to be more careful with your quoting @bobfoster as I did not write that but Newby did.

[bobfoster]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

You need to be more careful with your quoting @bobfoster as I did not write that but Newby did.

Oops, sorry - not sure how I did that.