Trackman Limitations and Causes for Misreads

[Mob]

Interesting information.  I am currently trying to decide which launch monitor to go with, for a home simulator build project I am about to start.  I am left handed and my sons are right handed, so I need a system that acommodates both, with minimal adjustment.  I have been looking at Trackman 4, Full Swing, GC Hawk, and Uneekor Eye XO. There are pros and cons to each system, as stated above. For those with experience on multiple systems mentioned above, any recommendations?  It seems from the thread that everyone posting on this thread would direct me towards GC Hawk.  Am I correct?

[clevited]

On 12/30/2022 at 8:53 AM, Mob said:

Interesting information.  I am currently trying to decide which launch monitor to go with, for a home simulator build project I am about to start.  I am left handed and my sons are right handed, so I need a system that acommodates both, with minimal adjustment.  I have been looking at Trackman 4, Full Swing, GC Hawk, and Uneekor Eye XO. There are pros and cons to each system, as stated above. For those with experience on multiple systems mentioned above, any recommendations?  It seems from the thread that everyone posting on this thread would direct me towards GC Hawk.  Am I correct?

 

Uneekor Eye XO or Hawk have my vote due to them being photometric (much better for indoors), and convenient for both left and right handed golfers.  Uneekor is more cost effective I think and less frustrating than the nickel and diming Foresight Sports imo, so I would lean more heavily in that direction.

[Mob]

1 minute ago, clevited said:

 

Uneekor Eye XO or Hawk have my vote due to them being photometric (much better for indoors), and convenient for both left and right handed golfers.  Uneekor is more cost effective I think and less frustrating than the nickel and diming Foresight Sports imo, so I would lean more heavily in that direction.

Thanks, I have moved away from trackman for that reason.  I have narrowed it down to FullSwing and Uneekor.  The width of my room is 14 feet, so I may need to have the ability to move off of the center for the driver, so I don't worry about it being near the wall.  FullSwing has a much wider space to move the ball around than Uneekor does, so I have to factor that in as well.

[Jpek]

Been using the TM4 radar based and have noticed mainly with my all black Titleist driver and fairway woods the distance and shot shaping is completely off. If I hit my old M4 off the tee no issues at all. Has anyone seen that black clubs having a hard time registering correctly?

[dandoholy]

If you have an extra screen set up, you can put up some additional info on the extra screen like the Numbers tab that you normally see in the range while you're playing VG.

 

I've noticed that the extra screen will show the "proper", normalized numbers whereas VG will take into account what the "lie" is and adjust accordingly.  The end result might be that the Numbers screen shows you hit your 7i 185 whereas the penalty from the lie in VG will make it go 130 (or whatever else it might be).

 

I've found the extra screen invaluable when evaluating whether I just mishit the ball completely or if it was just the software "nerfing" my ball flight.

[shaolingolfer]

I have more experience with GC2 and GC quad and just purchased the BLP, went to the new 2nd swing store open in Colony Texas couple days ago and tried out a different things in the Bay, set up with trackman using variety of golf balls. 

 

Driver, fairway wood seems to be fine, hitting some 8 irons (770 and forge tec) and get me all confused, 104 - 110 BS and spinning almost 6500 to 7500 and I know I don't spin iron like that, distance is like almost 10 yard shorter than I expected.  I probably need to bring my own RCT ball to try their stuff out next time,

[clevited]

On 3/2/2023 at 12:11 PM, dandoholy said:

If you have an extra screen set up, you can put up some additional info on the extra screen like the Numbers tab that you normally see in the range while you're playing VG.

 

I've noticed that the extra screen will show the "proper", normalized numbers whereas VG will take into account what the "lie" is and adjust accordingly.  The end result might be that the Numbers screen shows you hit your 7i 185 whereas the penalty from the lie in VG will make it go 130 (or whatever else it might be).

 

I've found the extra screen invaluable when evaluating whether I just mishit the ball completely or if it was just the software "nerfing" my ball flight.

 

 

So when the ball speed tile pops up in game, does it nerf the speed for the lie then and display that?  We didn't have an extra screen to display raw data if there is the ability to do that.  I was unable to play much on the local Trackman simulator this year to test again, but I know without a doubt I had the ball speed tile show up much slower than actual when compared to my GC3 at seemingly random times hitting from fairway which should be 100% ball speed.  This was last winter.

[dandoholy]

21 hours ago, clevited said:

So when the ball speed tile pops up in game, does it nerf the speed for the lie then and display that?  We didn't have an extra screen to display raw data if there is the ability to do that.  I was unable to play much on the local Trackman simulator this year to test again, but I know without a doubt I had the ball speed tile show up much slower than actual when compared to my GC3 at seemingly random times hitting from fairway which should be 100% ball speed.  This was last winter.

 

The in game ball speed tile is post-nerf, yeah.  If you have an extra screen, it'll almost always be higher than your in game tile (might be different if you apply wind).  That's been my experience at least (I get on Trackman ~5 times a week).

[clevited]

On 3/7/2023 at 12:54 PM, dandoholy said:

 

The in game ball speed tile is post-nerf, yeah.  If you have an extra screen, it'll almost always be higher than your in game tile (might be different if you apply wind).  That's been my experience at least (I get on Trackman ~5 times a week).

Ok thanks, I will check this out next time playing.  Started back up playing a spring league.

[tarrantian]

Resurrecting this topic and hoping someone has a suggestion or somthing to assist...

 

I've been using Trackman for a couple of years during the off-season up here in the frozen north at a indoor 'lounge'. Mostly, it feels great and likely better than most sim set-ups we've been playing over the last 8 years...

However, my buddies and I get what we call the 'Trackman Drift' particularly off the tee. The ball, even when struck well appears to be on a good line, but then inexplicably at the ball's apex, slowly starts to frustratingly drift either very left or very right when playing a course (It doesn't happen when playing on the Trackman Practice Range setting however)...

Based on my Skygolf 360 stats, I had my best year ever off the tee hitting 76% of fairways this season outdoors. My one friend hit his mini-driver deadly straight off the tee this year, but is also a victim of the 'Drift' when playing rounds on Trackman.

My group use our own premium balls, I use real tees (cut down slightly as they are a bit too high when placed in the artificial launch pad turf, the buddy I mentioned above uses the green plastic 'cones' that are available in the bays we play within). The units themselves are in the protective 'boxes' similar to what another stated, the bays are well-lit and the TM units themselves are just a bit over 15' from the screens...

To summarize, very frustrating especially when playing competitive leagues. Any thoughts as to why this may be happening? Anyone else experiencing the 'Drift' when playing a course on Trackman?? 

Would love to hear thoughts on this.

Thank you!

[CPT_LHR_ATL]

Need to use RCT balls to get good spin data from Trackman indoors. This applies to both backspin and spin axis, hence the variance you are seeing.

 

https://www.titleist.com/rct?

[Golf Pig]

On 12/26/2024 at 6:49 PM, tarrantian said:

To summarize, very frustrating especially when playing competitive leagues. Any thoughts as to why this may be happening? Anyone else experiencing the 'Drift' when playing a course on Trackman?

My home club’s sims have this exact problem. The issue is that TM misreads the spin axis. We only use RCT balls. The cause is very likely due to poor or incorrect lighting setup. Go back 1 page in this thread to read all about it. I sent my club this link for the correct lighting setup:

 

https://support.trackmangolf.com/hc/en-us/articles/7001184301851-Trackman-4-Simulator-Impact-Lighting-Requirements

 

FYI we’ve had zero issues with the Trackman IO at another indoor facility.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Golf Pig

[Dan13]

On 12/26/2024 at 9:23 PM, CPT_LHR_ATL said:

Need to use RCT balls to get good spin data from Trackman indoors. This applies to both backspin and spin axis, hence the variance you are seeing.

 

https://www.titleist.com/rct?

Just FYI - the RCT balls help with total spin. They will not help with spin axis and any influence from gear effect. That is where the lighting requirements come in - they allow TM4 to accurately identify the impact location and then calculate spin axis due to gear effect. 

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Dan13 said:

Just FYI - the RCT balls help with total spin. They will not help with spin axis and any influence from gear effect. That is where the lighting requirements come in - they allow TM4 to accurately identify the impact location and then calculate spin axis due to gear effect. 

 

Spin axis isn't "calculated" on Trackman. It's measured, and the cameras can help tweak it (sometimes you could get some weird 45° spin axis tilts on off-center hits), but it's not calculated. According to Trackman, the RCT balls do help with spin axis, too.

[tarrantian]

Thanks so much for the responses guys...

 

At the end of the day, the summary is this is not a 'new' problem, but not one that is easily solved. I've also heard RCT balls may help, but also heard they will not (As some here have said)...

 

Played today, and was able to get a consistent left to right flight 'riding' the drift LOL. 

 

Like everything, golfers adapt and if I want to play the league, other indoor golf at the facility where I'm now essentially a member I will have to as well. 

 

PS: Played Pinehurst #2 today and played well, the 'drift' impacted me a few times, but overall my partner was much more in despair than I! 😁

[Celeras]

@tarrantian Even though people are giving valid information nobody here actually came close to answering your question.

 

The "Trackman Drift" you are seeing is because TM4 will launch the ball ingame before it finishes reading the spin and determining the shots trajectory. That will always be the case whether you use RCT balls or not, and it is done for the consumer experience so you aren't sitting there waiting for a shot to launch after you swing (ala Skytrak). Once the spin and trajectory are sorted out, the Trackman will send a second measurement to the software and "correct" the trajectory. This can happen aggressively as the ball is already mid flight. That's what you are seeing and calling "drift".

 

This is not an issue with Trackman iO and the main reason it's the only Trackman recommended for indoor use.

[tarrantian]

4 minutes ago, Celeras said:

@tarrantian Even though people are giving valid information nobody here actually came close to answering your question.

 

The "Trackman Drift" you are seeing is because TM4 will launch the ball ingame before it finishes reading the spin and determining the shots trajectory. That will always be the case whether you use RCT balls or not, and it is done for the consumer experience so you aren't sitting there waiting for a shot to launch after you swing (ala Skytrak). Once the spin and trajectory are sorted out, the Trackman will send a second measurement to the software and "correct" the trajectory. This can happen aggressively as the ball is already mid flight. That's what you are seeing and calling "drift".

 

This is not an issue with Trackman iO and the main reason it's the only Trackman recommended for indoor use.

 

Thanks @Celeras...

 

The challenging part of your statement is 'essentially' you're saying that ultimately the 'Drift' is accurate in terms of where the ball ends up. Where I struggle with this, is I've been generally quite accurate off the tee (76% fairways hit this season, per my SkyGolf 360 tracking), now I know past success is not indicative of current or future success, but the feel of some of these drifting tee shots are solid and generally one who plays as much as I do can generally predict your ball flight with your eyes closed based on the feel/sound of impact...

 

The other question is, why does this 'drift' seemingly happen only on tee shots w/driver when playing rounds? Also, when on the TM 'Practice Range', my ball flight is generally what it is outdoors curiously enough. 

 

The whole thing is a bit confusing, and I do find my ball flights other than my tee shots to be quite accurate.

 

I'm almost giving up on solving this, but accepting of the fact it's an indoor anomally and the price for continuing play in the off season. It is what it is I suppose. 

 

Appreciate the response however. 

[Dan13]

35 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Spin axis isn't "calculated" on Trackman. It's measured, and the cameras can help tweak it (sometimes you could get some weird 45° spin axis tilts on off-center hits), but it's not calculated. According to Trackman, the RCT balls do help with spin axis, too.

Trackman - nor any radar unit - does not measure spin axis indoors or out. Radar can measure the total spin but not the axis around which the spin is occurring. That is why Trackman went to the iO for indoor because camera based systems can directly measure it. 
 

RCT balls only “help” with spin axis. Since side spin is a part of the total spin, accurately measuring the total spin will help get a better number. If gear effect impacts a shot radar units will always struggle with that. 

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Dan13 said:

Trackman - nor any radar unit - does not measure spin axis indoors or out.

 

🤣 You should email Tuxen about that. I'm sure he'd be curious to know. Plus, they have a LOT of literature to correct!

 

Email Henri at FlightScope, too. I talked with him for quite awhile about how the FlightScope measured spin axis.

 

Edited December 29, 2024 by iacas
typo

[Dan13]

Just now, iacas said:

 

🤣 You should email Tuxen about that. It's measured.

No it’s not. Seriously - look it up. Outdoors radar accurately calculate spin axis since it is tracking the flight.  Indoors it’s using club and ball data to calculate it. Which works fine until gear effect imparts spin. Radar units cannot measure the axis around which a ball spins. 

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, Dan13 said:

Seriously - look it up.

 

I did look it up. I've also talked with Tuxen and Johnson in years past. We owned a Trackman, and were FlightScope reps for awhile.

 

Curiously, among the things I found when "looking it up" was you saying the same stuff here, two years ago. To quote Mirek62: "You post more speculation than true information."

 

I've gotten better at withdrawing from conversations when it's clear there's nothing more to be gained. This line of conversation also has the kicker of being off topic, so… for those reasons…

 

 

Edited December 29, 2024 by iacas
clarity

[Dan13]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

I did look it up. I've also talked with Tuxen and Johnson in years past. We owned a Trackman, and were FlightScope reps for awhile.

 

Curiously, among the things I found when "looking it up" was you saying the same stuff here, two years ago. To quote Mirek62: "You post more speculation than true information."

 

I've gotten better at withdrawing from conversations when it's clear there's nothing more to be gained. This has the advantage of also being off topic, so… for that reason…

 

That is fine. I own a Mevo Plus and did go down the rabbit hole a couple of years ago on this when the pro package and the RCT ball came out. What I’ve described is how radar units come up with spin axis numbers. If I’m wrong  - and honestly would prefer to be wrong since I own a radar unit - please explain how radar would measure it. 

[Celeras]

Hilariously, you're both wrong! Because it's measured outdoors and calculated indoors. But for the purposes of this conversation (at least the necro bump portion), spin axis is calculated and not measured.

 

https://www.trackman.com/blog/golf/spin-axis

 

Quote

 

Indoor vs Outdoor Mode

Note: When using Trackman in ‘outdoor’ mode, the first ~30 yards of ball flight are used to determine the Spin Axis value. However, since the Spin Axis does not change during the ball flight, this measurement is considered to be made after separation from the club face.

When using Trackman in ‘indoor’ mode, the club delivery measurements (spin loft and face to path) are used to calculate the Spin Axis.

 

 

But on-topic, if OP is questioning the accuracy of the result and not just the visual nature of the "Drift" as I explained earlier... then the potential reasons for that could be endless. Indoor swing syndrome? Unaware of in-game conditions like wind (which practice range wouldn't have)? Bad read? Unit alignment? I won't even question a 9.7 handicap hitting 10% more fairways than Scottie Scheffler in 2024 haha. It's kind of impossible to speculate. 

[tarrantian]

14 minutes ago, Celeras said:

Hilariously, you're both wrong! Because it's measured outdoors and calculated indoors. But for the purposes of this conversation (at least the necro bump portion), spin axis is calculated and not measured.

 

https://www.trackman.com/blog/golf/spin-axis

 

 

But on-topic, if OP is questioning the accuracy of the result and not just the visual nature of the "Drift" as I explained earlier... then the potential reasons for that could be endless. Indoor swing syndrome? Unaware of in-game conditions like wind (which practice range wouldn't have)? Bad read? Unit alignment? I won't even question a 9.7 handicap hitting 10% more fairways than Scottie Scheffler in 2024 haha. It's kind of impossible to speculate. 

 

Well, not difficult when your avg. driving distance is 240 yards... 😉

[Dan13]

7 hours ago, Celeras said:

Hilariously, you're both wrong! Because it's measured outdoors and calculated indoors. But for the purposes of this conversation (at least the necro bump portion), spin axis is calculated and not measured.

 

https://www.trackman.com/blog/golf/spin-axis

 

 

But on-topic, if OP is questioning the accuracy of the result and not just the visual nature of the "Drift" as I explained earlier... then the potential reasons for that could be endless. Indoor swing syndrome? Unaware of in-game conditions like wind (which practice range wouldn't have)? Bad read? Unit alignment? I won't even question a 9.7 handicap hitting 10% more fairways than Scottie Scheffler in 2024 haha. It's kind of impossible to speculate. 

Thanks for posting this link. Easy authoritative reference. My understanding is that outdoors radar is measuring the curve and total spin (among other measured data) and deriving the spin axis from it - but not directly measuring the spin axis itself. 
 

The point for this thread is that the spin axis values in limited flight from radar units can definitely be off due to how the radar comes up with the numbers. This can be one (of many) reason why the OP may see some misreads. 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Dan13 said:

Thanks for posting this link. Easy authoritative reference. My understanding is that outdoors radar is measuring the curve and total spin (among other measured data) and deriving the spin axis from it - but not directly measuring the spin axis itself.

 

You remain incorrect about that. It's measured, not calculated. They're pretty picky about how they use those words.

 

Anyway, I'm glad the OP's question was answered:

 

14 hours ago, Celeras said:

@tarrantian Even though people are giving valid information nobody here actually came close to answering your question.

 

The "Trackman Drift" you are seeing is because TM4 will launch the ball ingame before it finishes reading the spin and determining the shots trajectory. That will always be the case whether you use RCT balls or not, and it is done for the consumer experience so you aren't sitting there waiting for a shot to launch after you swing (ala Skytrak). Once the spin and trajectory are sorted out, the Trackman will send a second measurement to the software and "correct" the trajectory. This can happen aggressively as the ball is already mid flight. That's what you are seeing and calling "drift".

 

This is not an issue with Trackman iO and the main reason it's the only Trackman recommended for indoor use.

Edited December 29, 2024 by iacas
words

[Dan13]

29 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

You remain incorrect about that. It's measured, not calculated. They're pretty picky about how they use those words.

 

Anyway, I'm glad the OP's question was answered:

 

I am trying not to be argumentative.
 

Why does TM need 30 yards of flight if it is measuring it directly? Should be able to determine that much quicker (like a camera system).
 

 I’m not saying it is estimated. It is accurate (outdoor) based on using other measured data points and calculating it  - so why would they need to measure it directly even if they could?  

Edited December 29, 2024 by Dan13
Rephrase question

[iacas]

This remains off topic, so…
 

Spoiler

16 minutes ago, Dan13 said:

I am trying not to be argumentative. If it is measured outside why can’t it be measured inside? I’m not saying it is estimated. It is accurate (outdoor) based on using other measured data points and calculating it  - so why would they need to measure it directly even if they could?  

 

Because the ball doesn't fly for 30 yards indoors. It's not calculated outside. You keep saying that word. Those words have meaning and they're very picky about it.