Help me understand ruling at Dell Match Play

[NJBigFish22]

So watching Bradley and Spieth in Dell match play.  Keegan hits his second on 16, bounces near green side bunker, hops over bunker across cart path and then goes OB.  I’m not sure how it was marked, but why would his drop be where he hit his second and not near where his ball went OB?

[sui generis]

R18.2b says,

 

What to Do When Your Ball Is Lost or Out of Bounds

If your ball is lost or out of bounds, you must take stroke-and-distance relief by adding one penalty stroke and playing a ball from where the previous stroke was made.

[jvincent]

Ignoring the local rule which is not used at elite competitions, the only available relief for OG is stroke and distance, i.e. replay from where you played the original stroke.

[596]

Because OB requires you to rehit the shot from the same place you hit the

 OB shot from.  

 

There is one exception to that rule but it has to be adopted by the course committee before it is in play.  If it is, then you'd get to drop the ball near where out went out of bounds, no closer to the hole.  Even as far as back in the fairway but again not closer to the hole.

[rogolf]

37 minutes ago, 596 said:

Because OB requires you to rehit the shot from the same place you hit the

 OB shot from.  

 

There is one exception to that rule but it has to be adopted by the course committee before it is in play.  If it is, then you'd get to drop the ball near where out went out of bounds, no closer to the hole.  Even as far as back in the fairway but again not closer to the hole.

Incurring the two stroke penalty that the Local Rule requires.

Edited March 23, 2022 by rogolf

[596]

7 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Incurring the two stroke penalty that the Local Rule requires.

Yes, after the tee shot OB, plus drop penalty, penalty stroke, you'd be hitting 4.  Exactly the same as though you had returned to the tee and hit into the fairway.

[klebs01]

45 minutes ago, 596 said:

Because OB requires you to rehit the shot from the same place you hit the

 OB shot from.  

 

There is one exception to that rule but it has to be adopted by the course committee before it is in play.  If it is, then you'd get to drop the ball near where out went out of bounds, no closer to the hole.  Even as far as back in the fairway but again not closer to the hole.

 

It the competition committee not the course committee. Courses don’t set rules for matches. For a social fourball match the committee would be the four players. 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, NJBigFish22 said:

So watching Bradley and Spieth in Dell match play.  Keegan hits his second on 16, bounces near green side bunker, hops over bunker across cart path and then goes OB.  I’m not sure how it was marked, but why would his drop be where he hit his second and not near where his ball went OB?

 

As you've probably already gathered, the ONLY relief from OB (or a lost ball outside a PA) is "stroke and distance".

 

UNLESS Local Rule E-5 is in force and then there are options, usually somewhere in the vicinity of where the ball went OB.

 

The Tour (and high level events) don't use E-5.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, NJBigFish22 said:

So watching Bradley and Spieth in Dell match play.  Keegan hits his second on 16, bounces near green side bunker, hops over bunker across cart path and then goes OB.  I’m not sure how it was marked, but why would his drop be where he hit his second and not near where his ball went OB?

 

Wow... this is where we are with this utterly confusing Model Local Rule E-5...

[Krt22]

34 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

As you've probably already gathered, the ONLY relief from OB (or a lost ball outside a PA) is "stroke and distance".

 

UNLESS Local Rule E-5 is in force and then there are options, usually somewhere in the vicinity of where the ball went OB.

 

The Tour (and high level events) don't use E-5.

Plenty of clubs with purist (*cough*British*cough) head pros don't either. 

 

However me thinks the OP has likely been playing most OB balls as lateral drops, as do many leisure golfers

[Newby]

1 hour ago, NJBigFish22 said:

So watching Bradley and Spieth in Dell match play.  Keegan hits his second on 16, bounces near green side bunker, hops over bunker across cart path and then goes OB.  I’m not sure how it was marked, but why would his drop be where he hit his second and not near where his ball went OB?

The rule for OB is different to that for a Penalty Area.

[klebs01]

59 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Wow... this is where we are with this utterly confusing Model Local Rule E-5...

I doubt the misunderstanding has anything to do with E-5. Most casual players don’t actually know the rules. I can’t say I’ve ever seen a casual golfer take stroke and distance at a public course. Most just play OB as a drop close to where it was lost. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by klebs01

[NJBigFish22]

Thanks everybody that answered!  

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, Krt22 said:

Plenty of clubs with purist (*cough*British*cough) head pros don't either. 

 

However me thinks the OP has likely been playing most OB balls as lateral drops, as do many leisure golfers

Our club chose not to adopt the available local rule.  A bit west of the Brits!

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Our club chose not to adopt the available local rule.  A bit west of the Brits!

Our club did adopt it for daily play, but not for specific competitions (read the terms of competition).  No issues with understanding or application.  Well received by the membership.

[Newby]

8 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Our club chose not to adopt the available local rule.  A bit west of the Brits!

Very few clubs over here use it. It can't be used for handicap score competitions

[Mr. Bean]

12 hours ago, klebs01 said:

I doubt the misunderstanding has anything to do with E-5. Most casual players don’t actually know the rules. I can’t say I’ve ever seen a casual golfer take stroke and distance at a public course. Most just play OB as a drop close to where it was lost. 

 

I believe it has everything to do with but in a different way. E-5 has been created as a 'permit' to do what many people already did over there.

 

The fact that E-5 is confusing has nothing to do with the case, I just added the attribute.

 

Have not yet seen it in use here.

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

The fact that E-5 is confusing has nothing to do with the case, I just added the attribute.

 

My club has used E-5 for general play from 1/1/19. Most know how to implement it. Indeed, they were confused for a few weeks, but now it's applied pretty well.

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

My club has used E-5 for general play from 1/1/19. Most know how to implement it. Indeed, they were confused for a few weeks, but now it's applied pretty well.

 

Thank you for confirming my view.

[KyGolf]

I don't know of any courses in this area that have adopted it. We were British once but that was a couple of hundred years ago.

[Girevik]

I know this is a long running debate, but for the life of me I can't understand why OB is treated differently than a lateral hazard, with the exception of removing the option to play it where it lies. 

[sui generis]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Thank you for confirming my view.

 

I'm happy to explain the operation of E-5 to you.

 

Here's the "bumper sticker" version:

 

BALL LOST OR OUT OF BOUNDS When a ball has been lost outside a penalty area or is out of bounds, provided there is not a provisional ball in play, you may use Model Local Rule E-5, Alternative to Stroke-and-Distance.

 

Estimate the spot where the ball was lost or went out of bounds. From that spot, follow an arc equidistant from the flagstick to the nearest edge of the fairway, then extend that arc further by two club-lengths into the fairway. Drop anywhere in the general area behind that arc. Add two penalty strokes.

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

55 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

I'm happy to explain the operation of E-5 to you.

 

Here's the "bumper sticker" version:

 

BALL LOST OR OUT OF BOUNDS When a ball has been lost outside a penalty area or is out of bounds, provided there is not a provisional ball in play, you may use Model Local Rule E-5, Alternative to Stroke-and-Distance.

 

Estimate the spot where the ball was lost or went out of bounds. From that spot, follow an arc equidistant from the flagstick to the nearest edge of the fairway, then extend that arc further by two club-lengths into the fairway. Drop anywhere in the general area behind that arc. Add two penalty strokes.

 

 

 

Thanks, Sui. I could not have found this MLR from the book I have right beside me on the table without your help. Despite the fact that I have read that MLR a multitude of times since it was published.

 

But do tell me, what did you think you would achieve with your post? You surely knew I knew the content of E-5, so what was the reason for your post? Just to be abrasive?

[sui generis]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Thanks, Sui. I could not have found this MLR from the book I have right beside me on the table without your help. Despite the fact that I have read that MLR a multitude of times since it was published.

 

But do tell me, what did you think you would achieve with your post? You surely knew I knew the content of E-5, so what was the reason for your post? Just to be abrasive?

 

You seemed to indicate that you were confused. I presumed that you didn't know how E-5 worked. You've said you don't use it. Now that you know how it works, perhaps you can talk your club into using it for general play. It's a good Rule; there are no downsides to its use. 🙂

[Newby]

29 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

You seemed to indicate that you were confused. I presumed that you didn't know how E-5 worked. You've said you don't use it. Now that you know how it works, perhaps you can talk your club into using it for general play. It's a good Rule; there are no downsides to its use. 🙂

Perhaps a downside is that using it friendly play may cause confusion if it is not permitted for use in handicap qualifying rounds by a ruling of the national authority

[sui generis]

3 minutes ago, Newby said:

Perhaps a downside is that using it friendly play may cause confusion if it is not permitted for use in handicap qualifying rounds by a ruling of the national authority

 

Give it another generation and the R&A will come around. 😉

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Girevik said:

I know this is a long running debate, but for the life of me I can't understand why OB is treated differently than a lateral hazard, with the exception of removing the option to play it where it lies. 

 

I expect there's a historical reason but,,,,,,,,,

 

One is ON the course.

 

The other is not.

[Augster]

3 hours ago, Girevik said:

I know this is a long running debate, but for the life of me I can't understand why OB is treated differently than a lateral hazard, with the exception of removing the option to play it where it lies. 

As above, OB is treated differently because your ball is no longer on the course. In every other case, you could, theoretically, play a ball that is on the course without penalty. It may require scuba gear in some cases, but you could play it. 
 

With an OB ball, you did not keep your ball on the course. A complete failure. By rule, you AREN’T ALLOWED to play the ball even if you find it OB and it is totally playable. 
 

That’s the difference really. The player hit such a bad shot he/she couldn’t keep it on the course.  Not the fairway, not the green, not even the hole being played. Off the course. 
 

This is why the penalty is stricter. The player doesn’t have a legal ball to play. 

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, Augster said:

As above, OB is treated differently because your ball is no longer on the course. In every other case, you could, theoretically, play a ball that is on the course without penalty. It may require scuba gear in some cases, but you could play it. 
 

With an OB ball, you did not keep your ball on the course. A complete failure. By rule, you AREN’T ALLOWED to play the ball even if you find it OB and it is totally playable. 
 

That’s the difference really. The player hit such a bad shot he/she couldn’t keep it on the course.  Not the fairway, not the green, not even the hole being played. Off the course. 
 

This is why the penalty is stricter. The player doesn’t have a legal ball to play. 

Yeah but if OB is really just some schleps backyard, I should be able to hit it, right? 

[sui generis]

51 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Yeah but if OB is really just some schleps backyard, I should be able to hit it, right? 

 

NIMBY, right? 😉