Course Management W/ a Scratch Golfer

[AntLockyer]

3 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

 If I pick a spot with a pitch. The ball will end up near that spot.  And with a putt. I see the entire path.  I can’t make the putt be straight to apex.  

Well, I'm the same as you to some degree but... I've always been patchy with distance control in the short game and chipping in particular because of it. It was really just a case of lob wedge everything close because that was all I could visualise. So I've been working hard recently on being a lot more focussed on landing point and having some structure around that. It seems to be working so far in practice.

 

With putting though I neither see the line or putt to the aimpoint well. Practicing the ladder drill that is described in DECADE 

 

I'm aiming at the second tee because my tendency is to come up short rather than long, but the amount of times I hit the tee was astonishing. I'm basically not lining up, it was a funny putt that had some swing to it, and I'm only focussing on speed but got the line super close a lot of the time.

 

I'm sure there must be some study done on people like this, I'd love to know how to manage my tendencies, I'm pretty sure I could be pretty good at golf.

 

[scooterhd2]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Here’s where decade leaves my mind.  A perfect shot doesn’t yield a good result.  
 

isn’t this planning to fail ?   At what point do you adjust the aim  if you’re continuously hitting it to the back fringe where you aimed ? 

 

If you get to the point where you hit it exactly where you aim every shot, then by all means aim at every stick, but that just isnt reality. From 115 yards, PGA pros GIR is 80.4%. 1 in 5 balls from the best players in the world is going to miss this green. The average shot proximity is 21 feet. If you aim dead at this stick, and hit the average pro shot, and miss short you are in the bunker, and right you are short sided in the rough and you have dramatically increased your chance for bogey. And those are good, stock, pro level shots. 

 

Yes, the target area is going to depend on your skill level, shot pattern, and normal dispersion. If you are a plus handicap, that orange circle is going to shrink. If you know the flag is 115, to clear the back bunker is 109, so you decide to play the shot at 120, and you have full confidence in your 120 club clearing 109 everytime, then you can take a more aggressive line over the bunker. Especially if you also really trust your bunker play. Now the bad miss is pin high or slightly long, but right of the hole. So you still respect the right miss and aim left, but now where a 'perfect shot' finds the green and should spin back some. This wouldnt be stuffed inside 10 feet, but you are on with a birdie putt. Play this 100 times and the numbers will work out in your favor as you will make some of the putts, rack up a ton of pars, and avoid bogey.  Keep in mind this for a straight shot as well, so the spots are landing points and not aiming points. If you are known to move the ball on command or with your stock shot then your aiming points can shift. A really good draw player can basically aim at the flag with the intention or working the ball back to the blue spot. A good fade player that can hold a boundary and not cross the flag might aim at the orange line, intending to work it back toward the blue, and overcooking it is just going to move it shorter and right toward the flag. 

 

 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, SNIPERBBB said:

I will say I am not a fan of the dispersion thing. I like to think of it as Perfect Shot, Normal Shot, Normal Miss, Slighty Worse miss and Foul Balls. Perfect Shot is where you flush/nuke it. Normal Shot is the bulk of where your shots go.  Normal miss is where you catch it fatter/thinner, slightly more cut/draw than normal shot. And so on...Depending on how good your ballstriking is, most people should plan for Normal Shot, Normal Miss, Slightly Worse miss. If your ball striking is really good, you might want to plan more for Perfect Shot and Normal Shot/Miss.

 

Extremely well said...

 

@bortass I think this helps to answer your question about course management for high caps like us... 

 

We have way too many foul balls compared to a better player... Tops, chunks, thins, etc. Those are going to happen, they're going to come randomly, and they lead to blowups. But they shouldn't be expected or planned for when it comes to course management or you'll be so insanely conservative that you can't do anything. If you have a 140 yard carry over water to the fairway, you don't want to take two wedges and bunt it around the water when even your "slightly worse miss" can easily carry it with your normal club. 

 

Likewise, perfect shot is pointless. They come infrequently enough that if you plan for a "normal shot", i.e. 90% of your maximum distance with a club, you'll be in the right place most of the time and 1 out of 20 maybe you'll nuke it over the green because you caught it JUST right. Better to live with that and find the green more often than to plan for the perfect shot and be short most of the time. 

 

For me, my normal shot is clean contact and a bit of a push draw. My normal misses are a little fat (short), a little off the toe (short / turns more), too much curvature (path and closing the face), and the occasional block push (leaving the face open). My slightly worse misses are big sweeping hooks that end up going WAY left of intended (perfectly clean contact but path and face get WAY out of whack). 

 

My dispersion pattern probably (and as discussed in my "suck less" thread) suggests that I'm not aiming far enough right on approaches. I need to accept missing right more often in order to center that dispersion for my normal shot to hit the right side so I have more margin for my normal and slightly worse misses that go farther left. 

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, AntLockyer said:

Well, I'm the same as you to some degree but... I've always been patchy with distance control in the short game and chipping in particular because of it. It was really just a case of lob wedge everything close because that was all I could visualise. So I've been working hard recently on being a lot more focussed on landing point and having some structure around that. It seems to be working so far in practice.

 

With putting though I neither see the line or putt to the aimpoint well. Practicing the ladder drill that is described in DECADE 

 

I'm aiming at the second tee because my tendency is to come up short rather than long, but the amount of times I hit the tee was astonishing. I'm basically not lining up, it was a funny putt that had some swing to it, and I'm only focussing on speed but got the line super close a lot of the time.

 

I'm sure there must be some study done on people like this, I'd love to know how to manage my tendencies, I'm pretty sure I could be pretty good at golf.

 

Yep. I use that drill as well. And Orrs 5 foot drill.  5 foot clock drill. See how many you can make in a row.   Becomes hard around 7/8 in a row. I’m up to 42 now.  But regularly lose focus around 20. You can hit 100s if not a thousand putts in a couple hours trying to beat this.   It teaches speed / stroke and focus at the same time.  And it translates to the course.  
 

with you hitting that tee so often . You’re kind of doing exactly what I’m doing with a wedge.  Teaching your brain to recognize distance with no real measured input.  

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, scooterhd2 said:

 

If you get to the point where you hit it exactly where you aim every shot, then by all means aim at every stick, but that just isnt reality. From 115 yards, PGA pros GIR is 80.4%. 1 in 5 balls from the best players in the world is going to miss this green. The average shot proximity is 21 feet. If you aim dead at this stick, and hit the average pro shot, and miss short you are in the bunker, and right you are short sided in the rough and you have dramatically increased your chance for bogey. And those are good, stock, pro level shots. 

 

Yes, the target area is going to depend on your skill level, shot pattern, and normal dispersion. If you are a plus handicap, that orange circle is going to shrink. If you know the flag is 115, to clear the back bunker is 109, so you decide to play the shot at 120, and you have full confidence in your 120 club clearing 109 everytime, then you can take a more aggressive line over the bunker. Especially if you also really trust your bunker play. Now the bad miss is pin high or slightly long, but right of the hole. So you still respect the right miss and aim left, but now where a 'perfect shot' finds the green and should spin back some. This wouldnt be stuffed inside 10 feet, but you are on with a birdie putt. Play this 100 times and the numbers will work out in your favor as you will make some of the putts, rack up a ton of pars, and avoid bogey.  Keep in mind this for a straight shot as well, so the spots are landing points and not aiming points. If you are known to move the ball on command or with your stock shot then your aiming points can shift. A really good draw player can basically aim at the flag with the intention or working the ball back to the blue spot. A good fade player that can hold a boundary and not cross the flag might aim at the orange line, intending to work it back toward the blue, and overcooking it is just going to move it shorter and right toward the flag. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

my GIR stat for that distance is 75.51 %.  From 75-100 yards is 89.47%.  My proximity is slightly better than tour  average.  Admittedly not an exact science on measuring. I walk off ,  they use  shotlink.  And I believe they use all approach shots. Not just GIR.  I don’t walk off missed greens. So mine is GIR only.  
 

as far as the scenario laid  out. I’m never hitting the 120 club full to a 115 pin. Not on flat ground  with no wind.  This is where the disconnect came in for me. This is what decade wants you to do.  This caused me a quick uptick in 3 putts from the back of the green. Of course it could also be course specific.  But on most I play on.  Long is dead.  In that instance I’m either hitting the 110 club hard. Or the 120 with a pronounced cut.  But anymore.  With todays clubs. I can just hit it so straight.  So I’d likely hit the 110 club full.  Or a nice little soft 120 club so as to fly 110-112.  I don’t mind a downhill putt. Just not a 15/20 footer.  
 

around to my point.  This is likely a good program for folks who struggle with approaches.  I get that. But  I’d offer this as an added explanation to the OP.  
 

 

the scratch player you were caddied ( lack of a bettter term ) by …. He was likely telling you where to hit it.  For you.  This doesn’t at all mean he’s going to aim in the same spot for him.  I see decade as the same idea.  The title is course management with a scratch golfer.  The premise being that he’s giving some hidden info .  What he’s actually doing is telling you how you can improve based on his view of watching you play.  Not to be confused with a blueprint to become a scratch player ( a term I detest ).  It’s not a one size fits all aspiration.  A 15 handicapper who’s smart and has watched you play could have given the same advice.   Knowing what to do and not being able to hit the shots doesn’t mean that the plan is wrong.

 

 It maybe petty.  But it’s a gripe I have.  Some of these course management threads seem to discount the work that it takes to execute.  The hours and hours of work.  There isn’t a method that will replace it. 
 

[Exactice808]

@betarhoalphadelta @bortass Truly Truly thank you for entering this mix. As your specific golf experience, changes the intent of the thread. 

 

1) This may come off the wrong way.   My circumstance is different from everyone, but sharing the experience for a player specifically like me. (Mid Cap/ 10hdcp)

1a) My ability/potential to get close to par at this moment is possible.  My scores are realistically low enough to shave shots off to do it.

1b) My physical golf itself is pretty solid.  My weakest link (Driver), I have worked on a LOT,  my fairway % has tripled as I keep the ball in play MUCH more now, and  now hitting  more shots from the fairway (hence the increase in GIR)  (Mevo+ work, thousands of shots, cut driver to 44" and now swing within reason, before it was all out) 

1c) The remainder of my game is solid. I dont hit perfect shots, but I dont miss much either.  I can say with confidence I hit 2 poor shots that day (That led to the 2 doubles),  thats it,  The rest were good/acceptable to make pars or better .  Outside of my prior poor driving stats (Prior), I hit irons well, have a decent short game (with multiple shot making abilities) and decent putting (1.9 average so less than 2 putts per hole average).  

 

2) As a Higher handicap, I  100% agree that course management is NOT the only fix to get them down to level par it can reduce strokes but not get them to 72, The need to improve their base golf ability to be repeatable to execute a shot is where the higher handicap would benefit as well.  I know this as I was a High handicap (as we all were once in our life) and can just have horrible days.  We just worked our way down. 

 

2a) With your acceptance of your current abilities,  This is where you make your decision of your score.  Course management again wont necessarily help you make a par on a par4 that's 500y if you only get 200y off the tee, its physically impossible,  but it can help you make a bogey rather than a double or triple.

 

3) Again the intent of this thread was to highlight the difference of mind set. Diving into the mind of a "good player", if you have a decent base a lot of shots are left on the table due to ego and "stupidity/inexperience".


For fun If I can kinda show you how navigation with the wrong mentality can leave a lot of shots on the table.

 

This is the Week before the round with the Scratch Golfer

(Course rating- White -6002 -68.9/122) Love this course as its relatively easy  

5 - birdies

4 - pars

7 - Bogeys

2 - others 

 

Below is NOT scratch golf, its not boring golf, its typical mid cap wild golf, All over the place, taking hero shots and getting lucky once in a while,  Luck only last for so long before lightning strikes. Sure its an 82 with 5 birdies which I have never done in my LIFE,  so we know thats luck,  this was easily a 86 without management,  OR If I did manage it, it would like be a 74. That 10 on 10 is just dumb, same with the 7 on 2.

 

Things to note, the 2 blow up holes,   Putts are about the same,  GIR about the same.  The Scoring is wild  But the ability is there with better management

 

 

(Course Rating - White -6136 - 694/125) about the same as above, but weather was tough as mentioned.

 

Below is potential scratch golf,  This is a clean score card for the most part other than the 2 needless penalties and the 2 bad shots, Not once did I required a hero shot.  Birdies were there, just never fell. I accept if I want to shoot low, this was the easier way to do it.

 

13 pars,

2 bogeys

3 doubles

 

 

 

The roller coaster ride with the 82, was frustrating,  confidence deflating and a lot of IDGAF attitude.

 

The 80 was smooth, it was easy, it was LOW stress other than knowing holy crap after 12 holes im 2 over still....That was a smooth round for the most part.  To shoot low I would want to have it as smooth and relaxed as possible?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Exactice808]

4 hours ago, AntLockyer said:

Well, I'm the same as you to some degree but... I've always been patchy with distance control in the short game and chipping in particular because of it. It was really just a case of lob wedge everything close because that was all I could visualise. So I've been working hard recently on being a lot more focussed on landing point and having some structure around that. It seems to be working so far in practice.

 

With putting though I neither see the line or putt to the aimpoint well. Practicing the ladder drill that is described in DECADE 

 

I'm aiming at the second tee because my tendency is to come up short rather than long, but the amount of times I hit the tee was astonishing. I'm basically not lining up, it was a funny putt that had some swing to it, and I'm only focussing on speed but got the line super close a lot of the time.

 

I'm sure there must be some study done on people like this, I'd love to know how to manage my tendencies, I'm pretty sure I could be pretty good at golf.

 

 

Hey! If you dont mind I have a temporary solution for learning and engraving distance control with putts.  I used the technique when I struggled with "feel" and speed.

 

I  used my feet as a ruler for distance. (PS I still use it, but its only when feel has left me or I just can figure speed out)

 

1) Find a flat spot on a green 3ft-15ft. You dont need a hole, Heck you can practice this on carpet at home but you need a flat spot with that much total distance

 

2) Start with your normal stance and setup up. your first thought is, the putter head goes back and forth, the distance from the inside of your toe line.  (swing normally) but just inside right toe to inside left toe.  Hit 3-5 balls. The should all roll to X distance,  for me on a regular 10 stimp this is about 2paces or 5ft.   The idea is now you have a visual ruler for the speed you are hitting.
 

2a) Now you use your toes/middle of your feet.  Putter head goes right middle of foot to left middle foot,  This should be about 4-5paces or about 10ft

 

2b) Now use the outside of your feet, the club head passes your right foot and then your left foot, this should be about 7 paces or 15ft

 

2c) Now for slightly longer putts,  your hands touch your knee caps,  right knee cap, left knee cap.  This should be about 10 paces or 20ft

 

The actual distance will be dependent on your stance and your pacing,, BUT the Idea is generally your putting stance is the same,  so using your body as a ruler for how much the club head goes back and forth to control the distance and makes it repeatable as you can see it when you look down.

 

This then applies to ANY course when you go to the practice greens. if its an 8stimp or a 12 stimp, you just pace off the 3-5 average puts per measurement.  slower greens,  less distance (Inside toe line is 2 paces or 4 feet), faster greens  (inside toe line is 3 paces or 5-6ft)

 

This is JUST to build confidence in your distance control and when things go real haywire you can fall back on the repeatable distance. 

 

 

From there your ladder drill,  You pace off the ladder and you know..... 5 ft is iside the toe line,   10ft is outside the toe line etc.

 

 

 

 

[MountainKing]

I probably play boring golf, not scratch but I carry a 2 and in general I try to stick to keeping the ball in play and hitting greens.  My group ranges from scratch to 13.  Myself and the scratches just do what we can to keep the ball in play (fat part of the fairway) and hit the green in regulation.  Unless the pin is in the middle, I almost never aim for it, just get somewhere below the hole where I can two putt, and if I miss I have a chance to get up and down or walk away with no more than a bogey.  I don't work the golf ball, I rarely manipulate ball flight regardless of wind, and never try to play a shot outside of my pay grade.  The 13 in our group will do all of that thinking it's helping him, when the reality is, if he stopped trying to draw/fade or hit the random flop shot, he'd probably be a single digit. 

 

The 13 will often say "this is a birdie hole" (and never bridie it), where I'm more thinking this should be an easy par.  I play to try and avoid double and higher, play for pars and just let birdies happen.  I averaged almost two birdies a round last year without ever thinking birdie on any hole.   I'll throw up a high score now and then, but sticking to my game keeps me pretty consistent and allows my game to travel well, especially to unfamiliar courses.  

[AntLockyer]

1 hour ago, Exactice808 said:

 

Hey! If you dont mind I have a temporary solution for learning and engraving distance control with putts.  I used the technique when I struggled with "feel" and speed.

 

I  used my feet as a ruler for distance. (PS I still use it, but its only when feel has left me or I just can figure speed out)

 

1) Find a flat spot on a green 3ft-15ft. You dont need a hole, Heck you can practice this on carpet at home but you need a flat spot with that much total distance

 

2) Start with your normal stance and setup up. your first thought is, the putter head goes back and forth, the distance from the inside of your toe line.  (swing normally) but just inside right toe to inside left toe.  Hit 3-5 balls. The should all roll to X distance,  for me on a regular 10 stimp this is about 2paces or 5ft.   The idea is now you have a visual ruler for the speed you are hitting.
 

2a) Now you use your toes/middle of your feet.  Putter head goes right middle of foot to left middle foot,  This should be about 4-5paces or about 10ft

 

2b) Now use the outside of your feet, the club head passes your right foot and then your left foot, this should be about 7 paces or 15ft

 

2c) Now for slightly longer putts,  your hands touch your knee caps,  right knee cap, left knee cap.  This should be about 10 paces or 20ft

 

The actual distance will be dependent on your stance and your pacing,, BUT the Idea is generally your putting stance is the same,  so using your body as a ruler for how much the club head goes back and forth to control the distance and makes it repeatable as you can see it when you look down.

 

This then applies to ANY course when you go to the practice greens. if its an 8stimp or a 12 stimp, you just pace off the 3-5 average puts per measurement.  slower greens,  less distance (Inside toe line is 2 paces or 4 feet), faster greens  (inside toe line is 3 paces or 5-6ft)

 

This is JUST to build confidence in your distance control and when things go real haywire you can fall back on the repeatable distance. 

 

 

From there your ladder drill,  You pace off the ladder and you know..... 5 ft is iside the toe line,   10ft is outside the toe line etc.

 

 

 

 

Thanks I've been doing something like this recently as well and it's helped a lot.

 

Also using this which helps also in the same sort of way 

 

[Exactice808]

1 minute ago, AntLockyer said:

Thanks I've been doing something like this recently as well and it's helped a lot.

 

Also using this which helps also in the same sort of way 

 

HOLY Smokes, I could have patented something like this and sold it???? DAMN!!!!  AHHA

 

That basically looks like what explained.  Well there you go,  But you can still use my method at the course during live putts to really trust and dial in your distances.

 

GL! 

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, Exactice808 said:

2) As a Higher handicap, I  100% agree that course management is NOT the only fix to get them down to level par it can reduce strokes but not get them to 72, The need to improve their base golf ability to be repeatable to execute a shot is where the higher handicap would benefit as well.  I know this as I was a High handicap (as we all were once in our life) and can just have horrible days.  We just worked our way down. 

 

2a) With your acceptance of your current abilities,  This is where you make your decision of your score.  Course management again wont necessarily help you make a par on a par4 that's 500y if you only get 200y off the tee, its physically impossible,  but it can help you make a bogey rather than a double or triple.

 

 

 

Agreed. I wanted to highlight that @bortass asked how to avoid bogeys, and I think the answer is that for he or I, we're really not legitimately playing for bogey avoidance. Bogey is a perfectly acceptable score for me (hdcp 22.2) and him (hdcp 23-24 IIRC), because a day of consistent bogey golf is BETTER than our current scores. 

 

So then the simple mental thing is "okay, how do I play for double bogey / blow up hole avoidance?" And again, that CAN be influenced by course management, but there's also an extent to which you can manage the course perfectly and still have a couple blow up holes due to execution. 

 

I'll give an example I had over the weekend. The hole was a par 3 playing about 145. Decent sized green, large bunker to the left, and a pond farther left. Some trees right, but everything right feeds down towards the hole so right is not terribly bad. 

 

I hit a draw tending to a hook when I miss, so I was aimed well right of the pin, in fact I was aimed off the green to the right. And then--I just made a TERRIBLE swing. This wasn't a ball I struck cleanly and hooked off the planet, it was a 9i snap hook. And it was wet. So, great... I luckily found the ball, and took my drop, and now I'm hitting three. That's already double territory because my short game isn't a "get up and down" reliably game--that's above my pay grade, so I'm playing for on the green and two-putt. So I go to pitch over the bunker to the green and again, execution error, make poor contact, and drop it into the bunker. My bunker game is terrible, so it took two to get out--into the rough, not onto the green. And then I three-putted from off the green because I was putting through rough and ended up hitting it 15 feet past. 

 

So what should I have done? Aimed farther right? Nah, because it was my "foul ball" miss that put me in the pond. My "slightly worse miss" would have been in the bunker. Maybe a course management error was not completely overplaying the pitch to get where I *KNOW* it's going to clear the bunker even if it leaves me a 40 foot putt coming back, and I'm at double at best but likely triple. But again, it wasn't that I misjudged the pitch--I mishit it. My mistakes were 90% execution IMHO.

 

I make course management mistakes; I'm not saying I don't. But that blow up wasn't course management, it was lack of execution. And while I can have one execution mistake on a hole and still sometimes recover to make bogey and even save par if I get really lucky, there are going to be random holes where I just make execution mistakes on multiple shots and then the big numbers are in play. 

 

For a high-cap, you need to make good decisions and play realistically. It can *absolutely* affect your score I think I do a good job of appropriate club selection to play for my 90% distance rather than my 100% distance. My group of playing partners nearly ALWAYS ends up missing short on approach, whereas most of my misses are green-high left or right unless I just catch one fat or way out on the toe. 

 

The biggest point for a high-cap is that you have enough problems in your game just handling execution. Playing a course management game that relies on perfect execution is just going to lead to big numbers. 

[Pepperturbo]

20 hours ago, bobfoster said:

You are a seriously cool dude. Where do you live? Right now I'm in central Jersey but likely moving to Tampa this year (looking at houses to buy, done w/ insane taxes and psychotic politics of NJ). My game is all over the place right now 'cause I'm trying to manage a company through Covid. I can shoot 75 one Saturday, and 95 the next. We gotta do 18 sometime man. And BTW? I got a guy - my best salesman - that I call "Louie - I know a guy". Can get me anything. Masters tickets, Superbowl and WS tickets. Cuban cigars. (He's quite good at smuggling.) Let's play golf someday. Its a WRX kind of thing.

Kind words, thank you.  New Jersey is a mess.  Good luck on the move south.  So, you know a guy, huh??? lol  

 

Some of the incountry sh** during younger years makes what ever golf throws at me as an ole guy, kinda not worthy of much attention.  The stakes need to be a lot higher before I get my panties in a wad, even then I always head into the fray. 

 

You have a wonderful weekend.

[scooterhd2]

Theres a fine line between saying, I'm not a great ball striker and I am always going to hit bad shots. My miss is a pull hook and thats always going to show up during a round as a 20+ cap. And I dont wholly disagree with that. You cant help but hit some bad shots. Conceded. But don't also excuse the fact that when there is water left, there might be an alternate strategy then just aiming a little more right (that might even be closing your stance and brining more draw into it if you are not careful in setup.) Maybe taking less club so that you dont feel you have to hit it as hard. Slow the swing down, choke up, and open the face up a hair as you need to knock off 10 yards. Rehearse more of a 3/4 swing with a more held off finish. Your not going to reinvent your swing on the teebox and turn into Bubba Watson hitting shots on command. But put together something that is your normal draw swing but with some physical preset intentions to not hook the ball. 

[Nels55]

10 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Absolutely.   And I hope it does. 

 

Something I thought if to try to show an example of how I think differently or maybe oddly about target. 
 

chips , pitches or putts. 
 

do you aim at a point to land the ball for pitches or an apex point for putts to make them seem straight ?  
 

i don’t.  I tried that too a couple years ago.  If I pick a spot with a pitch. The ball will end up near that spot.  And with a putt. I see the entire path.  I can’t make the putt be straight to apex.   I get the aiming idea. But it kills my speed control.     I see the path , align myself to the path I see. Then feel the speed in my hands.    I’m very much the same on shortgame shots.  I see the flight.  And then align to that picture.  Same on full shots.  And I practice this way.  
 

i have a wedge range at home , up to about 145 yards.  I do a ladder drill where I’ll throw out balls in a 20 or so yard pattern.  And I’ll alternate between balls at random.  So plus or minus up to 20 yards.  But take the  club which is capable of reaching 10 yards past the max ball distance and hit it for each shot. And I’ll hit draws and fades to a target from the random balls.  This trains the distance control by feel. Now of course. I do some known distance work with irons etc too. So say hitting 7 irons  at a 170 target.  But I find it very useful to also  be able to just instinctively hit that 7 to a 150 target if need be too.  said all that to say.  It’s just clouds the unconscious mind to try to measure it all for each shot.  But as you said. More than one way to skin that cat.  And i find the price to still be worth while for the stats alone.  
 

 

Your description of your process reminds me of the Focus Band strategy.  I took lessons from a pro who used Focus Band in his teaching and playing and he had a hard time shooting over par so I guess that it worked pretty well for him.  Anyway the strategy is to stand behind the ball and ask yourself "What would a good shot look like here?"

This gets a person who has practiced with Focus Band into what they call a state of Mushin or right brained.  If a shot shape pops into mind that is fine and if not it does not matter.  After that the the player steps into the shot using a routine of target focus, ball focus, target focus and then swings away.  In theory the resulting shot shape is the one that your subconscious choose.  My friend the pro's belief was that top players hit poor shots at times because they consciously override the shot shape that the right brain wants to hit.  LOL I have applied this process to putting with success but not so much to full shots.  LOL maybe someday...

[Nels55]

On 4/20/2022 at 11:40 AM, Patnachts said:

Good points here. I play a ton (almost exclusively) nassau with my usual groups, and, as a lower handicapper in the group, I give a ton of shots. Which ends up effecting my decision making as I feel the need to try and hit a bit of a hero shot to try and stay even with the guys I give shots to. I could also really benefit from trying to keep the game out of my head and just try and play steady golf. 

I play a lot of match play giving strokes and I have sometimes gone for a risky shot because I am giving a stroke on a hole and maybe my opponent hit a good tee shot or whatever.  LOL I end up making a double or triple and losing the hole by one stroke where a bogey would have won or tied it.  I need to remember that I am giving stroke because the guys I am playing with suck at golf more then I do...

[iutodd]

I really like this discussion.  I just want to say that I think the point of course management is to put you in the best position to execute.  Execution is inextricably intertwined with course management.

 

There are so many things to consider with every shot: lie, yardage, wind, pin, hazards, temperature, how you're playing, how many beers you've had...etc.

 

You need a system to parse all of that and make decisions so that you can feel confident and aggressive during your swing.  I think "executing" means that you have defined parameters for success and failure.  Course management is setting those parameters.  

[Precis1on]

6 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

I hit a draw tending to a hook when I miss, so I was aimed well right of the pin, in fact I was aimed off the green to the right. And then--I just made a TERRIBLE swing. This wasn't a ball I struck cleanly and hooked off the planet, it was a 9i snap hook. And it was wet. So, great... I luckily found the ball, and took my drop, and now I'm hitting three. That's already double territory because my short game isn't a "get up and down" reliably game--that's above my pay grade, so I'm playing for on the green and two-putt. So I go to pitch over the bunker to the green and again, execution error, make poor contact, and drop it into the bunker. My bunker game is terrible, so it took two to get out--into the rough, not onto the green. And then I three-putted from off the green because I was putting through rough and ended up hitting it 15 feet past. 

 

So what should I have done? Aimed farther right? Nah, because it was my "foul ball" miss that put me in the pond. My "slightly worse miss" would have been in the bunker. Maybe a course management error was not completely overplaying the pitch to get where I *KNOW* it's going to clear the bunker even if it leaves me a 40 foot putt coming back, and I'm at double at best but likely triple. But again, it wasn't that I misjudged the pitch--I mishit it. My mistakes were 90% execution IMHO.

 

This is a tough one given your handicap. In almost all common scenarios, your hazards you mentioned included, aiming off the green to the right is both a course management mistake and it raised the difficulty for you to have a good result from execution. Rather than accepting that you might miss a little to the left or hit a hook when aiming towards the center or maybe center right of the green, by aiming off the green to the right you actually introduced a higher probability that you would hit a snap hook.

 

Short game blowup aside, your course management choice on your first shot made your execution harder. 

[bladehunter]

8 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Your description of your process reminds me of the Focus Band strategy.  I took lessons from a pro who used Focus Band in his teaching and playing and he had a hard time shooting over par so I guess that it worked pretty well for him.  Anyway the strategy is to stand behind the ball and ask yourself "What would a good shot look like here?"

This gets a person who has practiced with Focus Band into what they call a state of Mushin or right brained.  If a shot shape pops into mind that is fine and if not it does not matter.  After that the the player steps into the shot using a routine of target focus, ball focus, target focus and then swings away.  In theory the resulting shot shape is the one that your subconscious choose.  My friend the pro's belief was that top players hit poor shots at times because they consciously override the shot shape that the right brain wants to hit.  LOL I have applied this process to putting with success but not so much to full shots.  LOL maybe someday...

Yep. That’s pretty much what I see. Although I had no idea somebody had monetized the idea.  Hmmm. Not shocked that they have though. But to me ,  It’s just how I see the  choice. 
 

all I want to know is the target distance , wind and elevation. Ill pull a club based on the shot  I see , and that info.  
 

your pro is exactly correct. Bad shots are usually because of doubt . When you don’t commit to the shot you see. This was exactly the mental conflict I mentioned earlier. 
 

this is exactly what tiger is doing by the by.  When he talks about “ putting to the picture “ or seeing the “ 9 windows “ and choosing a window and shape for each shot.  He means this literally.  He literally visualizes this. 

[naval2006]

There's a straight correlation between how well you play golf and how "boring" you can be.  The better your golf, the more out of trouble you stay: this is the main source of good scoring at any level.  If you take some time and see a few of the hours and hours of Jack Nicklaus in tournaments you'll notice no fancy shots for many holes unless he needed a superdriver or an excrutiating birdie.  This boring or conservative way of playing means granted success in competitions.  There will be some days when one player is really melting hot so you'll have them winning.  But the round of the year happens once every year.

 

So better players mostly keep it as simple as they can through the round.  Some days you are shaper and have more birdie opportunities, others, you play for the fat of the green and you're pleased with it; or you even try to miss the green to the ok side on days you can't hit a cow.  And in all these cases the other scoring factor will be your putting.  The more often you putt well the more frequent the decent or good scores are.

 

  

[ShortGolfer]

I've enjoyed learning course management, and started doing so after just a few nine hole rounds at an Executive golf course.

Not so much score, but to reduce the frustration of losing balls!  Late in the season the rough is really high, like a couple feet of hay.

It is much easier to find someone else's ball than the one you hit!  

 

Then the leaves starting falling, and it made a lot of sense to avoid any part of the course that had dense leaves.  Just like avoiding a water hazard.

Play is a lot faster if I don't have to look for balls.

 

If I got off to a good start some days my goal became finishing the round with just one ball. 😀

 

[bortass]

15 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Agreed. I wanted to highlight that @bortass asked how to avoid bogeys, and I think the answer is that for he or I, we're really not legitimately playing for bogey avoidance. Bogey is a perfectly acceptable score for me (hdcp 22.2) and him (hdcp 23-24 IIRC), because a day of consistent bogey golf is BETTER than our current scores. 

 

So then the simple mental thing is "okay, how do I play for double bogey / blow up hole avoidance?" And again, that CAN be influenced by course management, but there's also an extent to which you can manage the course perfectly and still have a couple blow up holes due to execution. 

 

I'll give an example I had over the weekend. The hole was a par 3 playing about 145. Decent sized green, large bunker to the left, and a pond farther left. Some trees right, but everything right feeds down towards the hole so right is not terribly bad. 

 

I hit a draw tending to a hook when I miss, so I was aimed well right of the pin, in fact I was aimed off the green to the right. And then--I just made a TERRIBLE swing. This wasn't a ball I struck cleanly and hooked off the planet, it was a 9i snap hook. And it was wet. So, great... I luckily found the ball, and took my drop, and now I'm hitting three. That's already double territory because my short game isn't a "get up and down" reliably game--that's above my pay grade, so I'm playing for on the green and two-putt. So I go to pitch over the bunker to the green and again, execution error, make poor contact, and drop it into the bunker. My bunker game is terrible, so it took two to get out--into the rough, not onto the green. And then I three-putted from off the green because I was putting through rough and ended up hitting it 15 feet past. 

 

So what should I have done? Aimed farther right? Nah, because it was my "foul ball" miss that put me in the pond. My "slightly worse miss" would have been in the bunker. Maybe a course management error was not completely overplaying the pitch to get where I *KNOW* it's going to clear the bunker even if it leaves me a 40 foot putt coming back, and I'm at double at best but likely triple. But again, it wasn't that I misjudged the pitch--I mishit it. My mistakes were 90% execution IMHO.

 

I make course management mistakes; I'm not saying I don't. But that blow up wasn't course management, it was lack of execution. And while I can have one execution mistake on a hole and still sometimes recover to make bogey and even save par if I get really lucky, there are going to be random holes where I just make execution mistakes on multiple shots and then the big numbers are in play. 

 

For a high-cap, you need to make good decisions and play realistically. It can *absolutely* affect your score I think I do a good job of appropriate club selection to play for my 90% distance rather than my 100% distance. My group of playing partners nearly ALWAYS ends up missing short on approach, whereas most of my misses are green-high left or right unless I just catch one fat or way out on the toe. 

 

The biggest point for a high-cap is that you have enough problems in your game just handling execution. Playing a course management game that relies on perfect execution is just going to lead to big numbers. 

Great post that highlights something that us high handicaps need to account for. 

 

First, I believe course management is completely predicated upon a golfers ability. This is not just overall skill based such as a 5 vs a 25 but even a 5 vs a 5. It completely depends on what the golfer in question can do. It's easier to see the difference between a 25 and a 5 but even the 2 5s will have different strategies. Obee is going to have a different approach than another scratch golfer that bombs it 300 yards off the tee. His wedge game is lights out and he's shorter off the tee. There comes a point where there is no one size fits all with regard to course management and it's at this level. So just because something that some says regarding course management doesn't jive with one's own experiences/skills doesn't invalidate it. 

 

Second, I believe course management is a process or meta game. It sits on top of each individual round of golf. It is a completely separate and distinct entity of it's own and needs to be judged that way. The best analogy I have for this, and I've mentioned in a few times over the years is Texas Hold'em. Mathematically there is a correct play based on the cards you have and the cards on the board. This is based purely on statistics. There is no gray area. If you are dealt Ace and King, go all in. The odds of those cards winning is just a bit over 50%. You will win more than you will lose over the long haul. You will lose an individual hand with AK almost half the time and that's where people can struggle.

 

Course management is not black and white like my analogy. There's no set of universal set of statistics that apply to every single shot by every golfer in the world. The concepts are very similar though. It's about long term results seen over multiple rounds, months, years even. It's not "well today I tried to account for my mishit and it went into the junk anyway. It must be flawed." @betarhoalphadeltaand I are probably dealt AK all time time while better players are dealt a pair of some sort. So we need to just take it into account that we are less likely to execute the correct "play" than a better golfer. Our aim windows may be bigger and we may attempt to play correctly but still post a doozy from unforced errors, lol. At least I will! And that does not mean that the course management is inherently bad.

 

The reason I asked about "how to avoid bogeys" was not about how do I avoid a bogey as a 25 index. It's about how to avoid a big number, my big number may be triple and yours may be double, that's fine. It's been discussed multiple times that bogey avoidance means more than making birdies. Reducing the big numbers is where it's at with regard to lower scores. Cool, I get that. Conceptually it's pretty easy for me to grasp.

 

 I've read, paraphrasing, 'Just avoid big numbers and it'll be fine in the end'. I struggle with the actual how do I avoid the big number? What's the thought process? Where should I be aiming?  What do I do when both the front left and front right side of a par 3 has bunkers and long is also bad because you'd risk chipping to the back of a green elevated above your head and the green slopes down away from you; The bunkers are pure crap with clay just under the surface and stones are littered throughout?

 

The reason I love these threads, and some others here, is I get to read how a bunch of better people than me would approach a situation. I may not be able to actually do exactly what people are talking about but concrete examples gives me a way to gain some insight into though processes and perhaps i can find a way to leverage it in my own game.  @scooterhd2with his Google earth and I assume MS Paint, drawing lines to illustrate a concept for example. It helped me better understand a mistake I'm making on a certain hole. I keep missing right on a par 3 and missing there is likely going to be a double even if you find your ball.  Gotta aim left more but first I had to actually look at that hole and try to figure out why I was struggling on it. He drew a diagram for a possible aim line that makes sense based on my tendency to always miss right on this hole. Now I get what he did and the concept he used when drawing the picture and can see if I can apply it on my own.

 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

14 hours ago, scooterhd2 said:

Theres a fine line between saying, I'm not a great ball striker and I am always going to hit bad shots. My miss is a pull hook and thats always going to show up during a round as a 20+ cap. And I dont wholly disagree with that. You cant help but hit some bad shots. Conceded. But don't also excuse the fact that when there is water left, there might be an alternate strategy then just aiming a little more right (that might even be closing your stance and brining more draw into it if you are not careful in setup.) Maybe taking less club so that you dont feel you have to hit it as hard. Slow the swing down, choke up, and open the face up a hair as you need to knock off 10 yards. Rehearse more of a 3/4 swing with a more held off finish. Your not going to reinvent your swing on the teebox and turn into Bubba Watson hitting shots on command. But put together something that is your normal draw swing but with some physical preset intentions to not hook the ball. 

 

Yeah, that might be something I should practice. I went a few weeks ago with my son to play our 9 hole exec course, and so I put a half-set into my Sunday bag instead of taking everything. I get to the 7th hole and I've got a 7i and a GW in the bag, and the tees were well back and the hole distance was about 10-15 yards longer than a stock GW shot. So I was forced to choose between a knockdown 7i (which I don't practice and have no clue on distance control) and a nuked GW. I chose the knockdown 7i, yanked it left, sent it 10 yards beyond the pin into the rough, and made double because I three-putted after a just "okay" pitch. 

 

Now, that's also a course management issue... "Bring a 9i along so you don't have such a big gap between 7i and GW, you dummy!"

 

But I bring it up to highlight that perhaps I need to practice some more of these 3/4 shots, but that they're not shots I can reliably pull out of the bag today. 

 

On that hole on Sunday, I wasn't trying to nuke my 9i, or even hit it "hard". It was just my stock 9i distance. It was just a garbage swing. It was "foul ball" miss, not "slightly worse miss", per the discussions above. 

 

10 hours ago, Precis1on said:

 

This is a tough one given your handicap. In almost all common scenarios, your hazards you mentioned included, aiming off the green to the right is both a course management mistake and it raised the difficulty for you to have a good result from execution. Rather than accepting that you might miss a little to the left or hit a hook when aiming towards the center or maybe center right of the green, by aiming off the green to the right you actually introduced a higher probability that you would hit a snap hook.

 

Short game blowup aside, your course management choice on your first shot made your execution harder. 

 

That may be true... This was on hole 15, so I did have a decent idea of my tendency already with approaches, and everything was turning left. But it's also possible by aiming that far right, instead of playing FOR a draw/hook, I was actually playing INTO a draw/hook. I.e. you mentally know that it's okay to hit that shot and not try to hit the straight ball, and so your brain allows the body to even exaggerate the bad habit that causes that shot shape. 

 

Either way, I gotta get to the range and work on what I'm supposed to work on to tame my path! That's the real answer! 😉 

 

12 minutes ago, bortass said:

 

I've read, paraphrasing, 'Just avoid big numbers and it'll be fine in the end'. I struggle with the actual how do I avoid the big number? What's the thought process? Where should I be aiming?  What do I do when both the front left and front right side of a par 3 has bunkers and long is also bad because you'd risk chipping to the back of a green elevated above your head and the green slopes down away from you; The bunkers are pure crap with clay just under the surface and stones are littered throughout?

 

 

Yes, and my whole point is that you're not going to avoid the big number JUST with course management. Players at our skill level will have some blow ups JUST from execution, even if you make every decision perfectly. 

 

For the hole you describe, it sounds like a back->front sloped green. For me, I'm picking a club distance that should land about 3/4 of the way onto the green. I'm typically playing receptive greens and tend to hit irons high and with spin, so I'm going to trust it's going to stop, especially with the slope. So with that distance I should MOSTLY take bunkers out of play unless I hit something fat or off the toe, but shouldn't fly over the green. Fat or off the toe would screw me no matter where I aim, so I just have to accept that's not going to end up someplace great--hopefully I'll miss short, left, or right of the bunkers. 

 

For you, I don't know how much spin you're usually putting on and how well you stop the ball. If you tend to have more roll-out at whatever distance this is, you might need to play for a distance that will land middle of the green and give some room for roll. If it is a back->front sloped green, though, that will help significantly stopping the ball, so depending on your spin you might be able to add a couple yards to middle of the green safely too. 

[Nels55]

5 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Yep. That’s pretty much what I see. Although I had no idea somebody had monetized the idea.  Hmmm. Not shocked that they have though. But to me ,  It’s just how I see the  choice. 
 

all I want to know is the target distance , wind and elevation. Ill pull a club based on the shot  I see , and that info.  
 

your pro is exactly correct. Bad shots are usually because of doubt . When you don’t commit to the shot you see. This was exactly the mental conflict I mentioned earlier. 
 

this is exactly what tiger is doing by the by.  When he talks about “ putting to the picture “ or seeing the “ 9 windows “ and choosing a window and shape for each shot.  He means this literally.  He literally visualizes this. 

Focus band process is a little different in that there is no visualization or conscious choosing of a window or shot.  The idea is to get the conscious mind out of the way and let the right brain hit the shot on it's own.  LOL this may or may not work for most people I don't know.  It does take a lot of practice to learn how to get into the proper state of mind on demand especially when trying to hit golf shots under pressure.

 

Hmmm, a few random thoughts on the subject:

Focus band can be used to train a person to get into a meditative state.  Quiet and calm even in pressure situations...  Hard for me to explain as even though I have one and use it quite a bit I am not all that good at it.  Monks who mediate all the time will get to 100% Mushin state with no problem while not so much for me.  Also tour players who use focus band a lot will easily get to the 100% state.  LOL I have my baseline set at 75% at the moment.  I am trying to practice with mine more often and maybe after some time I will get better at it.  I do seem to play a little better when I use it even though I don't exactly follow the process while playing other then sometimes on the putting green.

[scooterhd2]

I think there is a tendency to get too caught up into the ability to execute the plan, ie. I am a higher handicap player so what is the point of dialing into course management if I can not hit my targets? It doesnt matter your skill level, there is still a mathematically optimal strategy for each shot and each hole for a given player.

 

Tied football game, 2 seconds left on the 30 yard line. Team A has a field goal kicker who is 90% career average from this distance so they are feeling really nice about this play. More importantly, its an easy call for the coach.

 

Team B in the same situation but has a field goal kicker who is 25% career average from this distance. The team is saying prayers on the sidelines. But the coach knows hail mary attempts are only 8.3% successful since 1999, so he trots the kicker out there. 

 

It doesnt matter what the results are. Either call was correct. The difference is Team A gets that immediate feedback and validation as they likely win the game. Over 10 games the kicker wins 9 and there's no debating the calls. Team B misses the kick and loses the game. Then they lose the next 3. They are debating if that was the right move. The analytics arent leading to wins. Maybe we need a trick play. When they finally do win it feels more like luck than skill.

 

 

 

Look at this tricky par 5. Most of the hole is not visible as it is built into a mountain to the right. You just see directly in front of you and there is actually an aiming stick on the 226 yard line. Thats what the architect envisioned. Theres a huge layup area on the approach, and 2 well positioned shots lead to a wedge into the green. There is an alternate path that is much more aggressive. The landing area with driver is not visible and its over mountainous terrain, and it would be very difficult to find your ball at all, let alone on a playable lie. But if you can carry 240 uphill, there is a wide landing area. At this point you have the option of safely laying up, or again carrying a rocky desert area that is playing way up hill. Classic risk and reward.

 

I'm not sure they best way for you to play this hole. I dont know your driver carry, or how consistently you are able to reach your normal driver apex. I dont know how straight your layups are. You could easily slice hybrid into the desert as well or flub your 70 wedge into a bunker. I cant tell you what the best play for you is. You might not know what the best play for you is. But, there is an answer. We dont have the luxury, but if you played this hole 500 times hitting driver and 500 times hitting hybrid, one score would be lower. That would be the answer and that would be the correct club for you for the first shot and we would reanalyze from there. And ours answers could easily be different. If we had a huge database of every shot we ever hit and a super computer in our pocket, we would know the best club and target line. That's all really good course management is. Doing our best to optimize our strategy. We just dont have those tools, so we try to incorporate the statistics that we do have. 

 

 

 

[Nels55]

I have added some other options:

[Nard_S]

Course management is really about demeanor management, isn't it? You can care too much or too little, get too riled or too affected or too disinterested. You can swing for the fences when your body wants a beach chair. Or go too smooth when your body has adrenalin flowing. I think keeping head in round is one of biggest obstacles and those guys who play ''boring'' mastered that long payoff better. Game management is more about self-awareness than which iron to pull. Listening to the internal as well as absorbing the wind, terrain and circumstances too.

 

Every really solid, peak play round I've played has me ''managing'' me on a heightened level. I don't do this near enough. I ignore this, like never really make this priority. But on reflection it's plain obvious. My ratio of staying tuned in for all 18 to not is abysmally small.

 

Good thread, good input here.

[Bob M]

@Exactice808 - Thanks for starting this thread, which is one of the more thought provoking ones which I have read. As a high capper (and short hitter) myself, I would particularly like to thank @bortass and @betarhoalphadelta for their additions to the discussion. 

 

This season, one of my focuses is getting better at shot planning (course management) and can really relate to the observations made by @bortassand @betarhoalphadeltaabout moments of poor execution happening, frequently more than once in a hole, which can mess up a plan. For example, in recent rounds I have:

 

1) Double bogied a Par 3 after hitting my tee shot (9-wood, which should have been plenty of club) slightly fat, hooking it short into the left front greenside bunker which was in terrible shape and actually had a puddle in the middle. Even after moving the ball (following our local rule) it took two to get out followed by a two putt. 5

 

2) Triple bogied the number 1 handicap hole, a long Par 4, mainly because I snap hooked my drive into the trees, leaving my only option to punch out side ways, at which point I was still more than 250 yards away from the hole hitting 3. After three putting the hole I walked away with a 7. This is a hole that I am perfectly happy getting a bogie on as I cannot reach it in two shots, even from the senior tees. 

 

3) Triple bogied a Par 5, after a terrific drive and second shot left me about 90 yards from the middle of the green, because I thinned my pitching wedge into the right front bunker, bladed my bunker shot over the back of the green, chipped on then 3-putted. 

 

Three situations where failure to execute resulted in blow up holes. Snap hooks are my worst miss however "thins" and "fats" also happen, all generally when I am swinging our of my shoes trying for "maximum theoretical distance" from a club.  Lesson to be learned here is to take more club than I think I need and try to swing smoothly. Easier said than done, however. 

[SNIPERBBB]

7 hours ago, Nard_S said:

Course management is really about demeanor management, isn't it? You can care too much or too little, get too riled or too affected or too disinterested. You can swing for the fences when your body wants a beach chair. Or go too smooth when your body has adrenalin flowing. I think keeping head in round is one of biggest obstacles and those guys who play ''boring'' mastered that long payoff better. Game management is more about self-awareness than which iron to pull. Listening to the internal as well as absorbing the wind, terrain and circumstances too.

 

Every really solid, peak play round I've played has me ''managing'' me on a heightened level. I don't do this near enough. I ignore this, like never really make this priority. But on reflection it's plain obvious. My ratio of staying tuned in for all 18 to not is abysmally small.

 

Good thread, good input here.

That can play into it a bit. Playing pissed off golf generally doesn't work because you start making bad decisions. 

Edited April 23, 2022 by SNIPERBBB

[Nard_S]

3 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

That can play into it a bit. Playing pissed off golf generally doesn't work because you start making bad decisions. 

Or just even indifferent. I have that issue. If I'm playing okay, very"average" for me, I lose interest about 3 hours in. Last year happened 80% of time., have to nip that one this year.

[SNIPERBBB]

2 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Or just even indifferent. I have that issue. If I'm playing okay, very"average" for me, I lose interest about 3 hours in. Last year happened 80% of time., have to nip that one this year.

Playing casual round or competition golf? Competition golf makes not zoning out easier to do. Of course, it causes more stress