Establishing a Handicap

[KD1]

I've registered and got my GHIN number and have setup a phone app.

 

I realize this must rely on the honor system, and cheating it only cheats your self. I've never messed with this stuff or play with anyone that does. So what do I need to know about establishing an official handicap?

 

For example: Can I just go to my course, play, and post my score or do I need to play with other registered people? I think I've seen somewhere you need a witness, but it didn't say anything about the qualifications of that witness.

 

I'd say for the majority of my rounds I'm a single grouped up with randoms.

 

Anything else I might need to know before I start hacking away?

Edited May 13, 2022 by KD1

[Abh159]

If using the app you can post anything. There isn't really anyone to monitor that after all. 

 

However, if you really want to have a true handicap according the the rules of golf then you should only be posting real scores (i.e. no gimmies, no mulligans, no forgetting to count penalty strokes, etc) from rounds that you played with at least one other person. 

 

As you mentioned already, not posting an accurate score is only going to cause you to have a lower handicap than what it should be. And that will cause you to lose valuable strokes should you ever play in any sort of handicapped competition. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Abh159

[Augster]

The Rules of Handicapping require you to play with at least one other person to post your score. 
 

Not cheating, playing by the Rules, is a given. 
 

For all scores posted, you can’t post a hole score worse than a net double bogey (NDB). This only kicks in if you take a triple or worse on a hole. 

To establish your cap, you can post any eligible scores you can remember from recent memory. Put them in, and it’ll kick out your cap tomorrow. 
 

Again, only scores played with at least one other person and no hole scores more than NDB. 
 

Have fun!

[davep043]

43 minutes ago, Augster said:

For all scores posted, you can’t post a hole score worse than a net double bogey (NDB). This only kicks in if you take a triple or worse on a hole. 

If this seems confusing at first, the phone app allows you to enter scores hole-by-hole.  If you do that, the system will automatically correct for any scores over that Net Double Bogey.  I strongly recommend using that feature.

[KD1]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

The Rules of Handicapping require you to play with at least one other person to post your score. 

Does this have to be (or supposed to be) another ghin registered person

[Augster]

8 minutes ago, KD1 said:

Does this have to be (or supposed to be) another ghin registered person

Can be anyone. A caddie. Your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend that sits in the cart on their phone the whole time. 18 different people you play through each hole with. 
 

Anyone. 
 

Just not solo. Those are considered “practice rounds” and shouldn’t be entered. (Although if you shoot a really good round by yourself, feel free to post it. Nobody cares if your cap is lower than it should be posting by all the rules of handicapping.) 🙂

 

 

[North Butte]

1 minute ago, Augster said:

18 different people you play through each hole with. 

And it counts as non-solo (postable) as long as you played with someone for a certain minimum number of holes. I think it is 13 but not sure the exact number. 

[Augster]

11 minutes ago, North Butte said:

And it counts as non-solo (postable) as long as you played with someone for a certain minimum number of holes. I think it is 13 but not sure the exact number. 

Correct. 7 holes to post 9, 14 to post 18. 

[KD1]

Since no one is verifying or signing off on it or anything like that then what's the purpose for this rule?

 

One of those relics from the good ol' days?

[Augster]

7 minutes ago, KD1 said:

Since no one is verifying or signing off on it or anything like that then what's the purpose for this rule?

 

One of those relics from the good ol' days?

There was a lot of impotent rage when the USGA decided we couldn’t post solo rounds. “They think I’m a cheater”, “They don’t trust me” yada, yada, yada. Noise really. 
 

It’s better to think of it like this….the only real use for a handicap is for competitions against other players. Shouldn’t your scoring record be made up of rounds where you play with someone, anyone, versus playing alone? It’s a handicap made up of rounds when you “play with people” that you will use while you are “playing with people”. 
 

It’s the first step toward attested rounds. Eventually all of our rounds, that make up our scoring record, will be attested rounds. It’s a process, but we’ll get there someday. I’d guess within the next 10 years. 
 

And remember, world-wide posting solo rounds in the first place simply doesn’t happen. Worldwide it’s all attested rounds and has been forever. 
 

The USGA is slowing moving toward that with the WHS. 
 

We have guys that still post lots of solo rounds. Because of that, they rarely win anything net, and they think everyone else is a sandbagger because they never win anything net. 
 

In reality, they are posting rounds with no oversight, no distractions, completely relaxed and comfortable, they can set their own pace, they never have to wait for others to putt, and on and on and on. 
 

How a player scores in solo rounds played in 2.5 hours without distractions, has almost nothing to do with how they’ll score playing in a competition foursome that takes 5 hours to play. The only thing the two forms of play have in common is that you are trying to get the ball in the hole in as few strokes as possible. 
 

And they wonder why they “never play to their cap” in events. 
 

When you view it like that, it’s just silly we were ever required to post solo rounds in the first place. 

[KD1]

6 minutes ago, Augster said:

In reality, they are posting rounds with no oversight, no distractions, completely relaxed and comfortable, they can set their own pace, they never have to wait for others to putt, and on and on and on. 
 

How a player scores in solo rounds played in 2.5 hours without distractions, has almost nothing to do with how they’ll score playing in a competition foursome that takes 5 hours to play. The only thing the two forms of play have in common is that you are trying to get the ball in the hole in as few strokes as possible. 

 

Ahhh, okay. Understood. I know I certainly play better when I can fly through the course because it's much easier to stay in a rhythm... It can be almost like the driving range.

[North Butte]

37 minutes ago, KD1 said:

Since no one is verifying or signing off on it or anything like that then what's the purpose for this rule?

 

One of those relics from the good ol' days?

It was a totally meaningless compromise between R&A (who never have allowed anything other than attested rounds to count for handicaps) and USGA (who have always given carte blanche to sandbaggers and vanity 'cappers to punch in whatever numbers they like). It really can't possibly do anything about either sandbagging or vanity 'capping but it saves face for R&A because it reads like a concession on the part of USGA to "meet in the middle".

 

USGA handicaps, at least since opening them up to everyone rather than members of certain private clubs, have always been totally up to the individual golfer to decide what numbers he feels justified in posting. There is still no enforcement of even the weak rule about having to have another warm body along when you play. I've encountered (online and in Real Life) lots of golfers who continue typing in their solo round scores to GHIN and there's nobody going to stop them. 

[Augster]

16 minutes ago, North Butte said:

It was a totally meaningless compromise between R&A (who never have allowed anything other than attested rounds to count for handicaps) and USGA (who have always given carte blanche to sandbaggers and vanity 'cappers to punch in whatever numbers they like). It really can't possibly do anything about either sandbagging or vanity 'capping but it saves face for R&A because it reads like a concession on the part of USGA to "meet in the middle".

 

USGA handicaps, at least since opening them up to everyone rather than members of certain private clubs, have always been totally up to the individual golfer to decide what numbers he feels justified in posting. There is still no enforcement of even the weak rule about having to have another warm body along when you play. I've encountered (online and in Real Life) lots of golfers who continue typing in their solo round scores to GHIN and there's nobody going to stop them. 

That’s not exactly true. 
 

If you know of someone in your club that posted a solo round, you can always contact your handicap committee and have that round removed. The player will likely get a re-education not to post solo rounds. If they continue to offend, they can have their cap revoked. 
 

It’s called peer review. If you see something, say something. 
 

The WHS gave WAY more power to the handicap committee than it had previously in the USA. 
 

Previously, it’d be “Bill played by himself and shot 74, but he posted 85.” 
 

“How do you know, wasn’t he by himself?”

 

”It’s what I heard.”

Not much a committee could do. 
 

Now, after hearing the complaint, the committee can ask, “Bill, were you playing by yourself when you posted that 85?” If he answers yes, it gets deleted and he should be reminded not to post solo scores. 
 

So I wouldn’t say “Nobody is going to stop them”. I’d say, “Most of their peers let them get away with posting bogus scores and don’t say anything because they are weak, scared little boys.”

 

That’s a little closer to correct. 
 

 

[DArnie]

Question for all, does your club/course have a handicap committee? Or does the Club Pro or Pro Shop Manager act as the contact for questions, fixing mistakes or contacting the state handicap organization and ust post their own scores?

[North Butte]

2 hours ago, Augster said:

That’s not exactly true. 
 

If you know of someone in your club that posted a solo round, you can always contact your handicap committee and have that round removed. The player will likely get a re-education not to post solo rounds. If they continue to offend, they can have their cap revoked. 
 

It’s called peer review. If you see something, say something. 
 

The WHS gave WAY more power to the handicap committee than it had previously in the USA. 
 

Previously, it’d be “Bill played by himself and shot 74, but he posted 85.” 
 

“How do you know, wasn’t he by himself?”

 

”It’s what I heard.”

Not much a committee could do. 
 

Now, after hearing the complaint, the committee can ask, “Bill, were you playing by yourself when you posted that 85?” If he answers yes, it gets deleted and he should be reminded not to post solo scores. 
 

So I wouldn’t say “Nobody is going to stop them”. I’d say, “Most of their peers let them get away with posting bogus scores and don’t say anything because they are weak, scared little boys.”

 

That’s a little closer to correct. 
 

 

Peer review actually affects a very small portion of the people entering numbers into GHIN each day. It might or might not happen at private clubs but most GHIN subscribers are not members of private clubs, much less private clubs with active handicap committees seeking out violators of the handicap system rules. 

Edited May 14, 2022 by North Butte

[jomatty]

5 hours ago, Abh159 said:

If using the app you can post anything. There isn't really anyone to monitor that after all. 

 

However, if you really want to have a true handicap according the the rules of golf then you should only be posting real scores (i.e. no gimmies, no mulligans, no forgetting to count penalty strokes, etc) from rounds that you played with at least one other person. 

 

As you mentioned already, not posting an accurate score is only going to cause you to have a lower handicap than what it should be. And that will cause you to lose valuable strokes should you ever play in any sort of handicapped competition. 

I could be wrong but I think that if you play a money game or some other game with gimmes you still have to post it.  

Edited May 14, 2022 by jomatty

[MattM97]

I'm up in Canada so use the Golf Canada app for my handicap, I just plug in all my info after a round. It asks me if I played solo and if I do I mark that even if it's an amazing round cause honor system and that's it just updates my handicap. There's no reason for me to cheat it, will only hurt myself if/when I play a competitive tournament.

 

[Augster]

2 hours ago, DArnie said:

Question for all, does your club/course have a handicap committee? Or does the Club Pro or Pro Shop Manager act as the contact for questions, fixing mistakes or contacting the state handicap organization and ust post their own scores?

If you have an official GHIN cap, or a cap through your state association whether they use GHIN or not, you are beholden to a handicap committee. 
 

A club, any club, can’t issue USGA recognized handicaps without a handicap committee. 
 

Here:

So, just to be clear, a club does not necessarily mean a brick-and-mortar facility or a country club. A golf club is an organization of at least 10 individual members that operates under bylaws with committees (including a Handicap Committee)
 

From here:

 

https://www.usga.org/articles/2015/03/want-to-establish-a-handicap-index--join-the-club.html

 

 

 

 

[Augster]

1 hour ago, jomatty said:

I could be wrong but I think that if you play a money game or some other game with gimmes you still have to post it.  

You’re not wrong. Any “gimme’s”, conceded putts, or unfinished holes in casual play still get posted using “most likely score” for the hole up to net double bogey. 

[DArnie]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

If you have an official GHIN cap, or a cap through your state association whether they use GHIN or not, you are beholden to a handicap committee. 
 

A club, any club, can’t issue USGA recognized handicaps without a handicap committee. 
 

Here:

So, just to be clear, a club does not necessarily mean a brick-and-mortar facility or a country club. A golf club is an organization of at least 10 individual members that operates under bylaws with committees (including a Handicap Committee)
 

From here:

 

https://www.usga.org/articles/2015/03/want-to-establish-a-handicap-index--join-the-club.html

 

 

 

 

Of course you are technically correct but the gist of the question was how many clubs actually have a in house handicap committee. And really what and how it is managed vs. self entry and help by golf staff. I didn't explain it very well. BTW I'm in the biz and was curious how other clubs managed it. Probably should have started a different thread. 🙃

[adamwittman]

Post scores as you shoot them. I would differentiate days you are going to play for score and days you are going out with friends to slap shots around. Post the days you played for score 

[Augster]

On 5/13/2022 at 11:32 PM, DArnie said:

Of course you are technically correct but the gist of the question was how many clubs actually have a in house handicap committee. And really what and how it is managed vs. self entry and help by golf staff. I didn't explain it very well. BTW I'm in the biz and was curious how other clubs managed it. Probably should have started a different thread. 🙃

Every single one. 
 

You can’t have an issued USGA WHS cap without a handicap committee being in place. It is required. Even in a club made up of the minimum, 10 people. 
 

The “horror stories” of cap abuse is simply because people don’t peer review. And those that do, likely, are too scared to report abuse. 
 

But every club has a handicap committee. 
 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I use The Grint, which has an option for playing partners to attest your scores. The higher your attested score percentage is, the more trustworthy your index is, in theory--assuming of course that you're not collusively cheating with your regular playing partners. 

 

Does the GHIN app have that as well? 

 

I always post my scores when I'm playing as a single with a group of people I don't know, but don't get those scores attested as it seems awkward to ask for it. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by betarhoalphadelta

[Girevik]

I recommend posting your hole-by-hole score and let the app figure out your net double bogey.  Just record your score, and if you are going so bad on a hold just pick up and record a 12 or whatever and the app will put in the correct score.

[Augster]

4 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

I use The Grint, which has an option for playing partners to attest your scores. The higher your attested score percentage is, the more trustworthy your index is, in theory--assuming of course that you're not collusively cheating with your regular playing partners. 

 

Does the GHIN app have that as well? 

 

I always post my scores when I'm playing as a single with a group of people I don't know, but don't get those scores attested as it seems awkward to ask for it. 

No attestation required at this time for WHS/GHIN. 
 

It’s coming though. Eventually. 
 

Lastly, “peer review” isn’t something someone specific is tasked with. Peer review is your playing partners making sure you post your score after your round. 
 

If one was a single that played in with 3 random people, I wouldn’t expect any peer review. 
 

But if you’re playing with friends, all with handicaps, every one of those people should peer review the others to make sure the scores get

posted. 

[North Butte]

5 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

I always post my scores when I'm playing as a single with a group of people I don't know, but don't get those scores attested as it seems awkward to ask for it. 

I think even if GHIN required it, asking someone who simply happened to be playing alongside you that day to "attest" your score would be awkward anyway. It really only makes sense if the "attesting" party has some reason to be paying attention to your score because they were competing with or against you.

 

I got paired up with three guys during a round on vacation recently. If you asked me what their scores were I probably couldn't guess within five strokes. They were doing their thing and I was doing mine. 

 

I'm certainly never going to stick a scorecard in front of a stranger I get paired up with and ask him to sign and attest my score. That wasn't why he was there that day.

[2bGood]

On 5/13/2022 at 12:45 PM, Augster said:

The Rules of Handicapping require you to play with at least one other person to post your score. 
 

Not cheating, playing by the Rules, is a given. 
 

For all scores posted, you can’t post a hole score worse than a net double bogey (NDB). This only kicks in if you take a triple or worse on a hole. 

To establish your cap, you can post any eligible scores you can remember from recent memory. Put them in, and it’ll kick out your cap tomorrow. 
 

Again, only scores played with at least one other person and no hole scores more than NDB. 
 

Have fun!

Not to muddy the waters and to get into minutia, but for a score to be eligible for handicap purposes, playing the round under the rules of golf is not always required. It sounds crazy in one sentence, but the handicap system does allow for players to break the rules in several ways and still requires them to post the score (Ie not finishing or starting holes in stroke play, failing to sign a card, etc ).

 

I once had a funny disagreement with a player at an event who had one of their best rounds ever and  shot the low score in the event. Unfortunately they got DQ'd for failing to sign their scorecard. They decided that they did not have to post the round (which would bring their handicap down allot). Adding some insult to injury I had to follow up with them to let them know they had to post the score, and if they did not they would not be allowed to play in the next event. 

 

I have to admit their logic, on the face of it, was decent - if the score was not valid to win prizes, how could it be valid to for posting? They were wrong, but I can see how someone not familiar with the handicap rules would think this way. 

 

For more details - the round has to be played under the "Rules of Handicapping". 2.1B outlines some examples when you are not required to play under the rules of golf, but still need to post. 

 

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html 

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by 2bGood

[betarhoalphadelta]

36 minutes ago, North Butte said:

I think even if GHIN required it, asking someone who simply happened to be playing alongside you that day to "attest" your score would be awkward anyway. It really only makes sense if the "attesting" party has some reason to be paying attention to your score because they were competing with or against you.

 

I got paired up with three guys during a round on vacation recently. If you asked me what their scores were I probably couldn't guess within five strokes. They were doing their thing and I was doing mine. 

 

I'm certainly never going to stick a scorecard in front of a stranger I get paired up with and ask him to sign and attest my score. That wasn't why he was there that day.

 

Excellent point. 

[davep043]

55 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Not to muddy the waters and to get into minutia, but for a score to be eligible for handicap purposes, playing the round under the rules of golf is not always required. It sounds crazy in one sentence, but handicap system does allow for players to break the rules in several ways and still requires them to post the score (Ie not finishing or starting holes in stroke, failing to sign a card, ).

 

A funny disagreement I once had with a player at an event who had one of their best rounds ever and they shot the low score in the event. Unfortunately they got DQ'd for failing to sign their scorecard. They decided that they did not have to post the round (which would bring their handicap down). Adding some insult to injury I had to follow up with them to let them know they had to post the score, and if they did not they would not be allowed to play in the next event. 

 

I have to admit their logic, on the face of it, was decent - if the score was not valid to win prizes, how could it be valid to for posting? They were wrong, but I can see how someone not familiar with the handicap rules would think this way. 

 

For more details - the round has to be played under the "Rules of Handicapping". 2.1B outlines some examples when you are not required to play under the rules of golf, but still need to post. 

 

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html 

 

I love knowledgeable and accurate responses, with appropriate references to back them up.  Thank you!

[KD1]

So the course I'm about to play "does not have any active or rated tees" according to the USGA GHIN mobile app. The score card has course and slope ratings. Will it be appropriate to count this round toward handicap?