Handicap and Solo Rounds/Rounds with kids

[lowndes]

I was looking something up and just realized that you no longer are allowed to post solo rounds (oops for the last 10 or so rounds I played as I didn't realize that was a rule - I thought it was the exact opposite).  Anyways, now that I know going forward I find the next part interesting.  I play a lot of golf with either a young child riding with me or actually playing with my 8 or 10 year old.  None of these kids know enough about golf to have any idea what I'm doing out there (10 year old is getting there).  I assume these scores are still allowed to be posted?  From what I can find online that is the case.

Edited May 23, 2022 by lowndes

[Augster]

3 hours ago, lowndes said:

I was looking something up and just realized that you no longer are allowed to post solo rounds (oops for the last 10 or so rounds I played as I didn't realize that was a rule - I thought it was the exact opposite).  Anyways, now that I know going forward I find the next part interesting.  I play a lot of golf with either a young child riding with me or actually playing with my 8 or 10 year old.  None of these kids know enough about golf to have any idea what I'm doing out there (10 year old is getting there).  I assume these scores are still allowed to be posted?  From what I can find online that is the case.

Post those rounds. 
 

Solo rounds have been outlawed for many years now. 

[lowndes]

3 minutes ago, Augster said:

Post those rounds. 
 

Solo rounds have been outlawed for many years now. 

Thanks - interesting change.  I have not really played golf since 2014 so a lot of my scores are still from then.  I think I can email my club and explain situation to see if they can remove the solo rounds from past couple months.

[davep043]

If most of your scoring record is 8 years old, they may just choose to have you start anew.

[lowndes]

13 minutes ago, davep043 said:

If most of your scoring record is 8 years old, they may just choose to have you start anew.

I asked that question and they said no (I had two scores from 2018 in there but they weren’t factored into my handicap).  I was a bit surprised.  It’s not a huge deal as I don’t use a handicap for much right now but one goal of mine is to start playing MGA events starting this fall to better meet other members, etc.  I certainly want all my scores to be according to the rules by then (and by then I’d imagine all the 2014 scores will be washed out).

 

I was just a bit thrown off by the solo round vs round with kids who couldn’t really attest to anything.

[davep043]

18 hours ago, lowndes said:

I was just a bit thrown off by the solo round vs round with kids who couldn’t really attest to anything.

The story I've heard is that this change (in 2016) was a first step towards the World Handicap System.  At the time, the USGA was the only handicap system that accepted solo scores for handicaps.  The change was widely derided by many, complaining that the USGA didn't trust them.  To me, it makes sense, a handicap is intended to make for fair competition, competition means playing with (or against) others, so only scores made playing with others should count.  I think that the USGA, maybe in order to decrease the volume of complaints, made the rules about "accompanied" rounds pretty loose.  It won' surprise me if future revisions to the WHS tighten down the restrictions on posting of scores in the USGA areas, moving us closer to the rest of the world in that regard.

[lowndes]

On 5/24/2022 at 3:46 PM, davep043 said:

The story I've heard is that this change (in 2016) was a first step towards the World Handicap System.  At the time, the USGA was the only handicap system that accepted solo scores for handicaps.  The change was widely derided by many, complaining that the USGA didn't trust them.  To me, it makes sense, a handicap is intended to make for fair competition, competition means playing with (or against) others, so only scores made playing with others should count.  I think that the USGA, maybe in order to decrease the volume of complaints, made the rules about "accompanied" rounds pretty loose.  It won' surprise me if future revisions to the WHS tighten down the restrictions on posting of scores in the USGA areas, moving us closer to the rest of the world in that regard.

 

Interesting - that line of thinking makes sense and I'm sure they had a lot more information than I have in making such a decision.  Seems like you said the accompanied should be tightened up if that is the route they intend to go though (just make it competition scores or what not).  Not sure my 5 year old riding in the cart with me and putting a ball on the hole when he feels like it, etc. really is any different than a solo round.  Current rule doesn't make a lot of sense (which tends to happen when you try to appease to many people at the same time).  Big difference between playing with others and competing.  When I play with others I don't feel like I'm actually competing against them.  Just trying to play and score my best and get better over time.

Edited June 24, 2022 by lowndes

[davep043]

10 minutes ago, lowndes said:

Big difference between playing with others and competing.

I like the model used in many other jurisdictions, competition scores count.  "Casual" rounds can count if they are pre-registered and attested by another player in the group.  I know lots of people wouldn't like this, but that's my opinion as to the best course of action.  If might take a number of revision cycles to get there.

[Newby]

8 hours ago, davep043 said:

I like the model used in many other jurisdictions, competition scores count.  "Casual" rounds can count if they are pre-registered and attested by another player in the group.  I know lots of people wouldn't like this, but that's my opinion as to the best course of action.  If might take a number of revision cycles to get there.

The CONGU book says "The marker must be a person acceptable to the Handicap Committee".

A little difficult if, as it seems over there, there aren't many such animals. 😉

[North Butte]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

The CONGU book says "The marker must be a person acceptable to the Handicap Committee".

A little difficult if, as it seems over there, there aren't many such animals. 😉

It's not really surprising so few golfers in USA don't even know the very basics of the handicap system. The entire system is set up to depend on an actively functioning Handicap Committee in order to operate properly. I'd guess than far, far fewer than half the people currently posting to GHIN have any such thing. Probably more like 10-20%. Even at private clubs it's hit or miss whether the Committee knows what they're doing in any great level of detail. 

 

One former Handicap Committee chairman at my club flatly refused to accept the "no solo rounds" restriction when it came to the USGA system several years ago. He said it didn't make any sense and as far as he was concerned any member who failed to post solo scores was sandbagging. Eventually he was replaced with someone a bit more clued-in, fortunately. Or at least I hope so, I don't actually know the current incumbent personally. 

[HappyGilmoresBoots]

On 5/23/2022 at 9:55 PM, lowndes said:

 It’s not a huge deal as I don’t use a handicap for much right now but one goal of mine is to start playing MGA events starting this fall to better meet other members, etc.

I signed up for The Grint last year and posted solo rounds just to get a handicap index for MGA events.  They aren't super picky.

[oikos1]

On 5/24/2022 at 3:46 PM, davep043 said:

I think that the USGA, maybe in order to decrease the volume of complaints, made the rules about "accompanied" rounds pretty loose.

Rules forum is the best. 

 

So you're saying after a three hour lunch, "Bob's secretary" can "accompany" him to the golf course and attest to his score for handicapping purposes?

 

Handicapping rules are fantastic!

[HappyGilmoresBoots]

23 hours ago, HappyGilmoresBoots said:

I signed up for The Grint last year and posted solo rounds just to get a handicap index for MGA events.  They aren't super picky.

I'll share my experience...MGA is an event with a minimum handicap rating, and a minimum allowable score.  The group I golfed with was rife with sandbaggers who spent their seasons finessing their handicap indices to be higher than the minimum allowable score, and spent their rounds carefully crafting their next shots so they could guarantee themselves the lowest score on the day, that still exceeded the minimum required score of the event...things like "Oh, if I hit my 7i off the teebox on this par 5, I can finesse a bogey score out of this hole," or "Oops, I duffed this putt...MARK ME FOR ANOTHER STROKE!"  The whole thing is supposed to be fun look at golf in a lighthearted competition, but my experience was sandbaggers and, since the whole organization is run by a real estate guy, tons of sales pitches from him and his staff.

[cmatthews77]

On 5/23/2022 at 3:25 PM, lowndes said:

I was looking something up and just realized that you no longer are allowed to post solo rounds (oops for the last 10 or so rounds I played as I didn't realize that was a rule - I thought it was the exact opposite).  Anyways, now that I know going forward I find the next part interesting.  I play a lot of golf with either a young child riding with me or actually playing with my 8 or 10 year old.  None of these kids know enough about golf to have any idea what I'm doing out there (10 year old is getting there).  I assume these scores are still allowed to be posted?  From what I can find online that is the case.

I play a lot of late afternoon rounds with my kids also over the years.  This is how I've always looked at it... despite my best intentions to play a legitimate round of golf, I often get distracted when my kids were little (either from distraction or worrying too much about what they're doing and teaching them vs playing myself) and end up treating them like practice rounds where I may hit multiple chips, not put seriously, etc. and often did NOT post those rounds.  My club was always ok with that explanation.

 

Now my kids are older and my 14YO is starting to push me pretty good so they're totally legit rounds when we play and I post them.

[larrybud]

It has to be one of the dumbest rules ever invented.

I go out by myself, no posting.

 

I go out by myself, get paired with a stranger. He only knows my first name. Doesn't know what I shot, doesn't CARE what I shot, and has no way to verify anything, but I can post it. 

The usga is seemingly stuck on this belief that all golfers belong to a country club, with a handicap committee, who reviews posted scores. It's crazy.

[tatertot]

17 minutes ago, larrybud said:

It has to be one of the dumbest rules ever invented.

I go out by myself, no posting.

 

I go out by myself, get paired with a stranger. He only knows my first name. Doesn't know what I shot, doesn't CARE what I shot, and has no way to verify anything, but I can post it. 

The usga is seemingly stuck on this belief that all golfers belong to a country club, with a handicap committee, who reviews posted scores. It's crazy.

The actual rule is as follows:

 

In the company of at least one other person, who may also act as a marker

 

So ... is the rando you got paired with willing to act as your marker? Otherwise, you're still not supposed to post.

 

And you are correct ... the USGA does seem to assume we are all CC members with a handicap committee at our disposal.

[ThinkingPlus]

6 minutes ago, tatertot said:

The actual rule is as follows:

 

In the company of at least one other person, who may also act as a marker

 

So ... is the rando you got paired with willing to act as your marker? Otherwise, you're still not supposed to post.

 

And you are correct ... the USGA does seem to assume we are all CC members with a handicap committee at our disposal.

That verbiage does not imply you cannot post if the person you are playing with does not act as your marker.  The use of the word "may" makes the playing partner as marker optional vis-a-vis posting.  If they used "must" it would be different.

[North Butte]

Well yes, it's a stupid rule. But not quite as stupid as the previous rule that all solo rounds had to be posted.

 

Give them credit for a teensy, tiny, baby step in the direction of a logical rule saying scores can be posted only from competitive rounds with a marker or competitor attesting. They'll get there eventually but it will probably take three or four more stupid rules in the meanwhile. 

 

I'm tempted to say, "Hey USGA. While we're young!". 

[davep043]

5 hours ago, larrybud said:

It has to be one of the dumbest rules ever invented.

I go out by myself, no posting.

 

I go out by myself, get paired with a stranger. He only knows my first name. Doesn't know what I shot, doesn't CARE what I shot, and has no way to verify anything, but I can post it. 

The usga is seemingly stuck on this belief that all golfers belong to a country club, with a handicap committee, who reviews posted scores. It's crazy.

did you by any chance read the discussions a few years back, when some suggested that we (USGA area players) might eventually have to have an actual player attest our score?  Did you read the caterwauling, the angst, "That can't EVER work!"  Yet that would make the most sense, if we want a reliable handicap system.  This was a small step towards the rest of the world.  I'd like for it to have been a larger step, even if that means losing a lot of people from the handicap system, and maybe we'll get there, but this was a start in the right direction.

[North Butte]

6 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I'd like for it to have been a larger step, even if that means losing a lot of people from the handicap system, and maybe we'll get there, but this was a start in the right direction.

In the end, it's going to mean either losing the majority of current GHIN handicap holders or else bifurcating the system to have separately compiled "competition handicaps" (i.e. real, attested handicaps) and "casual handicaps" (i.e. vanity 'caps and those of the track-my-progress solo artists). My guess is they will bifurcate as it's hard to imagine USGA ever being willing to see their number of handicap subscribers decimated. 

[oikos1]

7 hours ago, davep043 said:

did you by any chance read the discussions a few years back, when some suggested that we (USGA area players) might eventually have to have an actual player attest our score?  Did you read the caterwauling, the angst, "That can't EVER work!"  Yet that would make the most sense, if we want a reliable handicap system.  This was a small step towards the rest of the world.  I'd like for it to have been a larger step, even if that means losing a lot of people from the handicap system, and maybe we'll get there, but this was a start in the right direction.

Why not just make it USGA handicap rules tournament based if you want legit, reliable handicaps?  Who really should care what someone shoots for multiple rounds throughout the year on a Saturday or Monday or Friday?  Tourneys speak the truth.

 

It really is that simple, isn't it?

 

 

[cookout14]

At the end of the day, what actually matters at the individual level is that a handicap is an accurate representation of a golfer’s ability to score relative to the rest of the handicapped population. 
 

We have rules and policies designed to try and achieve that outcome in the most consistent way possible, with full knowledge that some will sandbag, some will go for a vanity cap, and that a good amount will not actually know the rules very well. 
 

Message boards like this one are wonderful for hemming and hawing about rule changes and ways to eliminate the rabble, but…

 

@lowndes- if you need those scores for the volume for a handicap, and they are a legitimate representation of what you’d score with other people and not your kids, then post them.  
 

If someone believes that a) your handicap is accurate to your ability to score, but that b) your rounds with your kids should disqualify you from having a handicap in the first place, that’s their circle to square.

 

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by cookout14

[Augster]

9 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Why not just make it USGA handicap rules tournament based if you want legit, reliable handicaps?  Who really should care what someone shoots for multiple rounds throughout the year on a Saturday or Monday or Friday?  Tourneys speak the truth.

 

It really is that simple, isn't it?

 

 

Absolutely not. 
 

When my friend shoots a 66 on Wednesday in a casual round and takes all my money, I want his cap to go down so I get another stroke or two on Thursday. 
 

If “attested comp” scoring was only on weekends, I’d get fleeced all week. Plus, if my friend skips the weekend comps, I’ll continue getting fleeced until he plays another “attested comp” AND plays well. Which there is no guarantee. 
 

Let’s not get it twisted. The WHS flat out works when used by honest people that post all their scores that they play with others. We use our caps every single day in net games in our different groups. I’ll take my cap up against anyone else in our various groups and we’ll have a competitive match. 
 

 

[larrybud]

20 hours ago, North Butte said:

Well yes, it's a stupid rule. But not quite as stupid as the previous rule that all solo rounds had to be posted.

 

Give them credit for a teensy, tiny, baby step in the direction of a logical rule saying scores can be posted only from competitive rounds with a marker or competitor attesting. They'll get there eventually but it will probably take three or four more stupid rules in the meanwhile. 

 

I'm tempted to say, "Hey USGA. While we're young!". 

 

I guess if they want to eliminate 95% of the golfing public from having a handicap, they're well on their way!

 

Of course, they could solve this by simply allowing all rounds to be posted, and competitive rounds get marked with as a "T" score, and have a "general handicap" and a "competitive handicap" reported for each player. "T" scores would only be posted by approved committees rather than the player's themselves.

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by larrybud

[larrybud]

17 hours ago, North Butte said:

In the end, it's going to mean either losing the majority of current GHIN handicap holders or else bifurcating the system to have separately compiled "competition handicaps" (i.e. real, attested handicaps) and "casual handicaps" (i.e. vanity 'caps and those of the track-my-progress solo artists). My guess is they will bifurcate as it's hard to imagine USGA ever being willing to see their number of handicap subscribers decimated. 

 

Could you imagine all the players whose last 20 scores go back 15 years, because he only plays 1 or 2 competitive rounds per year? Hell, I'm fairly prolific for tournaments for someone who has a full time job, and I only play in 5 or 6 each year. Maybe it'll just become a handicap system for college and high school players.

[North Butte]

There are about 50-75 members of my club who play together 2, 3, 4 times a week in rollup games. They post all the scores and those scores represent 90-95% of the golf they play each year. That's pretty much exactly the market the USGA system was built to serve way back when and really not a lot of changed for that core market.

They basically decided back in the 1980's that they'd rather be a one-size-fits all handicapping service for everyone from their traditional club-based market right on up to the folks who want to post their once a week solo rounds to "track their progress". For whatever reason they seem to want to backtrack to something halfway in between the original, very limited system and the wide-open one they created 30 years ago. 

 

But the fact remains, guys who want an easy way to track handicaps for their $20 dogfights and people who want to say they have a handicap even though they never compete with anyone really don't need a one size fits all system. 

 

P.S. Most college players and a lot of serious high schoolers don't really care much about handicaps since they play only scratch events. 

[Newby]

Perhaps the USGA thought it time to get in to step with the RoW. After all there are many more US visitors coming to Europe and Australia where no one trusts the visitor's handicaps.

[North Butte]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

Perhaps the USGA thought it time to get in to step with the RoW. After all there are many more US visitors coming to Europe and Australia where no one trusts the visitor's handicaps.

I'm sure USGA would love to have comparable handicaps between GHIN and the systems in the rest of the world. Whether they would love that enough to lose something like of their current subscriber base is the question. 

 

My sense is they'll do whatever halfway measures they can, as long as it doesn't interfere with the pretense of "peer review" and as long as it doesn't actually prevent GHIN subscribers from punching in any number they like, whenever they like. Making silly rules about not posting solo rounds but posting rounds where your wife was tagging along for the ride in the cart don't actually do anything much. They can be ignored by those who want to ignore them since there's enforcement procedure or audit trail involved. 

 

If they were to actually implement an attestation system, that's where millions of solo artists suddenly have to decided if they want to get with the program and follow the rules or just quit subscribing to GHIN. I don't think USGA wants to force anyone into that choice but who knows?

[mshills]

On 5/28/2022 at 3:01 PM, Newby said:

Perhaps the USGA thought it time to get in to step with the RoW. After all there are many more US visitors coming to Europe and Australia where no one trusts the visitor's handicaps.

I don’t understand this comment….it’s anecdotal at best, but my experience is for every sandbagged cap there are ten times as many vanity caps, and if someone wants to carry a vanity cap, so what? 
 

I can’t think of a good elegant solution here. Someone in my situation who has a highly variable and jam packed schedule — I’m going to take every opportunity to squeeze rounds in, and more often than not, they are solo at odd hours.

 

I play with one arm. I play my ball down, and I putt everything out. Someone in Far Hills NJ says I cannot post those scores and keep an honest index? GTFO. I post every single one, and my conscience is totally clear. 

[Newby]

50 minutes ago, mshills said:

I don’t understand this comment….it’s anecdotal

Of course it is. But this I believe is very much the UK and European impression.