Handicap and Solo Rounds/Rounds with kids

[North Butte]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

Really?

 

Intentionally doctoring your cap so that you lose more money, more events, more often, isn’t a symptom of psychosis? 🙂

An awful lot of vanity 'cappers hardly ever play in competitions or play for money. 

 

A huge number of people maintain a handicap and try to keep it as low as possible because they think it reflects on their relative spot in the pecking order among golfers. It is literally a form of vanity, not a tool for allowing them to participate in competitions. 

Edited June 20, 2022 by North Butte

[DaveLeeNC]

19 hours ago, Augster said:

Nobody does that. They’d lose money. The ONLY reason to doctor your handicap is to give you an edge to win money. 
 

Any other reason is simply psychotic. 

 

Reasons ...

 

1) Vanity handicaps 'bring value' to some people. While you might argue the 'value of that value', psychotic is way too strong a term. In some respects I would even call it human.  

 

2) Some competitions have a max handicap limit and some people may want to play in those even though their index may be close to the edge (so a bit of vanity cap gives them some margin) 

 

3) Some courses even have a handicap limit 

 

dave

[Golferpaul]

21 hours ago, Augster said:

Nobody does that. They’d lose money. The ONLY reason to doctor your handicap is to give you an edge to win money. 
 

Any other reason is simply psychotic. 

Not true at all.  If you are playing a match and will lose a hole, you could three putt and lose by two strokes.  Or in stroke play if you are having a bad day, you can make it worse on purpose.

[betarhoalphadelta]

2 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

Not true at all.  If you are playing a match and will lose a hole, you could three putt and lose by two strokes.  Or in stroke play if you are having a bad day, you can make it worse on purpose.

 

True, but in order for it to matter, you have to do that in >60% of rounds, or else rounds that you've deliberately made worse won't even count for your calculation. 

 

I suppose that if you made it a very common thing to add a stroke every or almost every time you knew you were out of contention for a hole, it might be affect >60% and bring the cap up, but that's a lot of dedication. And it would probably be noticed by regular playing partners that you never seem to lose a hole by one, and you miss a lot of 2 foot putts when you've lost the hole that you never miss when you are still in the hole...

[North Butte]

13 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

True, but in order for it to matter, you have to do that in >60% of rounds, or else rounds that you've deliberately made worse won't even count for your calculation. 

 

I suppose that if you made it a very common thing to add a stroke every or almost every time you knew you were out of contention for a hole, it might be affect >60% and bring the cap up, but that's a lot of dedication. And it would probably be noticed by regular playing partners that you never seem to lose a hole by one, and you miss a lot of 2 foot putts when you've lost the hole that you never miss when you are still in the hole...

There was a guy at my club years ago, before I joined, who was apparently infamous for "managing" his handicap like that. To the extent that when someone misses a couple really short putts late in a round everybody jokingly refers to it by that guy's name.

 

But you're right, it really does take some serious, dedicated and consistent effort to buy yourself more than a stroke or so like that. Especially now with 8-of-20 instead of 10-of-20 counting.

[DaveLeeNC]

20 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

True, but in order for it to matter, you have to do that in >60% of rounds, or else rounds that you've deliberately made worse won't even count for your calculation. 

 

I suppose that if you made it a very common thing to add a stroke every or almost every time you knew you were out of contention for a hole, it might be affect >60% and bring the cap up, but that's a lot of dedication. And it would probably be noticed by regular playing partners that you never seem to lose a hole by one, and you miss a lot of 2 foot putts when you've lost the hole that you never miss when you are still in the hole...

 

You don't have to do it to >60% of the rounds you play. Just do it when you are playing well. Or just routinely add 3 strokes somewhere in the front of every round. It most cases it is easy to get away with. 

 

dave

[mshills]

The mental gymnastics on both sides of this debate are remarkable!  Before anyone says so, yes, I could just follow the handicap guidance to the letter, but here is my position, factual with no gymnastics:

 

I play some portion of my rounds solo.  Not as many as half, but a meaningful number.

 

In 2019 I had major orthopedic trauma and lost the use of my L arm for golf.  I thought golf had been taken away from me, until my lower body healed to where I decided to give a go at playing with one arm.  I am grateful that one of my former (three) sports passions is still accessible, though it's hard to come to terms with being a 25 now versus being 6-7 index.

 

This gratitude means I will take advantage of every opportunity I have to play -- including solo rounds.

 

I play every round by the rules.  I play the ball down.  I don't take "relief" from roots or rocks, I take an unplayable.  If my ball is lost, I don't just "drop one over here."  Same if my ball is O.B.  I like to walk, so this means I have no problem hitting a provisional if there is any doubt on the whereabouts of my most recent shot.  I play from divots.  I putt everything out, even from 6".

 

Unless my intention is to practice on the course, e.g.: play "worst ball" late in the day, etc..., I post every score.  This is a clear violation of GHIN.  I know that, and I accept that fact.  However, my conscience is clean and I know my index is legitimate, and that is my measuring stick.

[North Butte]

It's not a matter of conscience and you certainly don't need to justify how you use the handicap system to us. GHIN is wide open, as we've been discussing ad nauseam. Millions of golfers use GHIN to keep track of their own version of a handicap according to their own rules.

 

It's only when you compete against other people using that handicap that you owe them an explanation and make it clear that your handicap is based on the way you usually play, not on the system's literal rules. A lot of people are perfectly OK with that although large, organized competitions usually are not. 

[Augster]

3 hours ago, mshills said:

The mental gymnastics on both sides of this debate are remarkable!  Before anyone says so, yes, I could just follow the handicap guidance to the letter, but here is my position, factual with no gymnastics:

 

I play some portion of my rounds solo.  Not as many as half, but a meaningful number.

 

In 2019 I had major orthopedic trauma and lost the use of my L arm for golf.  I thought golf had been taken away from me, until my lower body healed to where I decided to give a go at playing with one arm.  I am grateful that one of my former (three) sports passions is still accessible, though it's hard to come to terms with being a 25 now versus being 6-7 index.

 

This gratitude means I will take advantage of every opportunity I have to play -- including solo rounds.

 

I play every round by the rules.  I play the ball down.  I don't take "relief" from roots or rocks, I take an unplayable.  If my ball is lost, I don't just "drop one over here."  Same if my ball is O.B.  I like to walk, so this means I have no problem hitting a provisional if there is any doubt on the whereabouts of my most recent shot.  I play from divots.  I putt everything out, even from 6".

 

Unless my intention is to practice on the course, e.g.: play "worst ball" late in the day, etc..., I post every score.  This is a clear violation of GHIN.  I know that, and I accept that fact.  However, my conscience is clean and I know my index is legitimate, and that is my measuring stick.

This is fine. 
 

Until you use that manufactured cap in a competition or for money. 
 

If you never play for money, or only play gross, and never play in any competition where having a cap would matter, then doctor your cap any way you want. 
 

Or, as a better judge of performance, you could keep strokes gained stats and actually know where you need to practice to improve. 
 

The handicap index is a horrible way, really, to see if you’ve improved.

 

Don’t try to use your manufactured cap for events. Thank you. 

[mshills]

Look man I am not trying to get ugly with you so no need to give orders. 
 

I do have a question. What part of my handicap exactly is manufactured? The part where my 11 year old son doesn’t “attest?”

 

EDIT:  my mistake. Since attestation is not a requirement, forget that statement. A round is only legitimate if you are playing in the company of another person, correct? Don’t have to be competing against that person, and furthermore, that person could be a child or spouse who isn’t even playing. As a thought exercise, what if I have multiple personality disorder and I play against myself? Somehow that gives the round more legitimacy and now must be posted…..I don’t understand how that makes any sense at all.

Edited June 20, 2022 by mshills

[North Butte]

mshills,

 

The USGA handicap system has some stupid, really stupid, rules to it. If it weren't for the fact the guys I play with regularly use USGA handicaps I'd never in a million years go along with USGA's continually evolving silliness and pettiness. But I'd rather play in the games at my club than not, so I go along with what they require.

 

So I'm with you, if you don't need a USGA handicap then use GHIN however you see fit. I'd say maybe 20% (at most) of "handicap indices" you see on GHIN are actual USGA handicaps that pretty much follow the rules of the system. You and I obviously aren't the only people who think the actual rules of the system make no kind of sense. 

 

But if you don't approve of the way the system works, to claim "I have a legitimate USGA handicap" while you're making up your own rules is not cool. Dishonest, in fact. 

[nsxguy]

22 hours ago, Augster said:

Really?

 

Intentionally doctoring your cap so that you lose more money, more events, more often, isn’t a symptom of psychosis? 🙂

 

Nah. I wouldn't consider a vanity cap a mental disorder,,,,,, just,,,,,,,, well, vanity.

 

[Imp]

We have a guy in our club that doesn't post outside rounds. The only scores entered are the rounds where the club or comp enters them for him automatically. I've offered my assistance if he just can't figure it out.... 

 

When approached with this, "but my handicap would probably go up!" Which I say, "rightly so". He gets mad and storms off. Hdcp chair pulled him aside and said he had to post outside rounds.  He feigns ignorance, and still hasn't posted rounds yet. 

 

Here's the problem (which we've figured out has to be the reason). He plays is a state invitational comp (Rhode Island) with 6 events a year and his hdcp is consistently at the back end of a flight, meaning he gets more strokes than someone at the front of the flight. If his handicap goes up, then he runs the risk of being bumped to the next flight, where he's giving strokes to others.

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Imp

[DaveLeeNC]

Having the Handicap Chair contact the State Invitation Comp Committee or simply withdrawing the handicap index (following Rule 7.1c)  would both seem to be appropriate given the facts as stated. 

 

dave 

Edited June 23, 2022 by DaveLeeNC

[Imp]

8 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Having the Handicap Chair contact the State Invitation Comp Committee or simply withdrawing the handicap index (following Rule 7.1c)  would both seem to be appropriate given the facts as stated. 

 

dave 

Agreed. I want him to be an adult about it and do the right thing 1st. You  know, give him a chance. Many members have had a discussion with him about it last year, this year and it's almost come to a head. We both play in a league outside of our club, and he also plays in another league on another day. He doesn't post those league rounds. As far as how our club handles it, it's up to the hdcp chair/committee, and they've spoken to him about it. Just need to see if he follows through.

[Golferpaul]

3 hours ago, Imp said:

We have a guy in our club that doesn't post outside rounds. The only scores entered are the rounds where the club or comp enters them for him automatically. I've offered my assistance if he just can't figure it out.... 

 

When approached with this, "but my handicap would probably go up!" Which I say, "rightly so". He gets mad and storms off. Hdcp chair pulled him aside and said he had to post outside rounds.  He feigns ignorance, and still hasn't posted rounds yet. 

 

Here's the problem (which we've figured out has to be the reason). He plays is a state invitational comp (Rhode Island) with 6 events a year and his hdcp is consistently at the back end of a flight, meaning he gets more strokes than someone at the front of the flight. If his handicap goes up, then he runs the risk of being bumped to the next flight, where he's giving strokes to others.

 

I was on the handicap committee at our club and here is how we handled players who refuse to post all their rounds;

 

1. Warning letter and explanation of the USGA rules for posting.
2. If not corrected, we sent a 2nd letter warning that we will post a 68 for him.
3. If not corrected we post one 68 to his GHIN number
4. Have the head pro meet with him in person
5. If not corrected, suspend him from all club events

 

[mshills]

1 hour ago, Golferpaul said:

I was on the handicap committee at our club and here is how we handled players who refuse to post all their rounds;

 

1. Warning letter and explanation of the USGA rules for posting.
2. If not corrected, we sent a 2nd letter warning that we will post a 68 for him.
3. If not corrected we post one 68 to his GHIN number
4. Have the head pro meet with him in person
5. If not corrected, suspend him from all club events

 

 

Definitely seems an appropriate way to handle someone who refuses to post all scores.

 

How often did this escalate to #3?

 

I would love to see the offender's reaction when seeing the 68 appear.  🤣

[mshills]

On 6/20/2022 at 6:44 PM, North Butte said:

I'd say maybe 20% (at most) of "handicap indices" you see on GHIN are actual USGA handicaps that pretty much follow the rules of the system. You and I obviously aren't the only people who think the actual rules of the system make no kind of sense. 

 

But if you don't approve of the way the system works, to claim "I have a legitimate USGA handicap" while you're making up your own rules is not cool. Dishonest, in fact. 

 

I'd guess that far, far less than 20% actually follow the rules of the USGA system....but my experience with this is like everyone else, anecdotal.

 

I cannot concede that I have a dishonest index.  If I "dropped one over here" when my ball is lost, then I'm being dishonest.  If I intentionally miss 2' putts, then I'm being incredibly dishonest.  If I fail to post that really good round because it would lower my index, then I'm a freaking cheat.  Like I said, according to the letter of the rules you could say my index is not legit, but my conscience is clean, I'm not a cheat.

[North Butte]

1 hour ago, mshills said:

 

I'd guess that far, far less than 20% actually follow the rules of the USGA system....but my experience with this is like everyone else, anecdotal.

 

I cannot concede that I have a dishonest index.  If I "dropped one over here" when my ball is lost, then I'm being dishonest.  If I intentionally miss 2' putts, then I'm being incredibly dishonest.  If I fail to post that really good round because it would lower my index, then I'm a freaking cheat.  Like I said, according to the letter of the rules you could say my index is not legit, but my conscience is clean, I'm not a cheat.

I'm not saying it's cheating. I'm saying if you post scores according to your own wishes instead of posting the scores that USGA's system instructs you to post then you have a "MSHILLS handicap", not a "USGA handicap".  It might be higher, lower or heck it might even work out to be the same. But it's only a "legitimate USGA handicap" if you post the scores USGA says to post. 

 

Most people you're going to play a friendly game against aren't going to sweat it anyway. If you say, "My handicap is 7 although I don't strictly use the USGA handicap system" they're going to be fine with you getting seven strokes. But you might as well be honest about where you got the number from. The group I most frequently play with occasionally has someone bring a guest who's playing off an "unofficial" handicap and we let it slide.

Edited June 23, 2022 by North Butte

[lowndes]

Is vanity handicaps really that big of an issue?  Take me for example, if I play with people I know then my handicap is accurate because I’m comfortable.  If I play with strangers then I play like crap for a few holes because I get nervous.  And I played an MGA event the other day and really played like crap as it was my first “tournament” since high school.  I think I shot like 15 shots higher than my handicap.

 

That said my handicap is by the USGA rules.  I post my scores when I’m playing with another (and my club removed my solo rounds, etc.). I’m just getting back into playing with strangers as well as “competitions”.  I think my handicap is accurate but I need to work on that aspect of my game.  Seems like a lot of people might have this issue.  Hopefully it straightens itself out the more I do it.

 

I don’t think I have a vanity handicap though.

[oikos1]

On 6/19/2022 at 11:44 PM, Augster said:

Really?

 

Intentionally doctoring your cap so that you lose more money, more events, more often, isn’t a symptom of psychosis? 🙂

Wait, what?  What if "Intentionally doctoring your cap so that you lose more money, more events, more often" results in more networking, more business, and ultimately more money being made on the other side and in one's pocket?

 

Handicap be damned!

[Golferpaul]

On 6/23/2022 at 11:26 AM, mshills said:

 

Definitely seems an appropriate way to handle someone who refuses to post all scores.

 

How often did this escalate to #3?

 

I would love to see the offender's reaction when seeing the 68 appear.  🤣

 A few times.  Sometimes you have to slap somebody to get them to listen.   We only got to #4 one time and the arrogant sob relented.

[Golferpaul]

19 hours ago, lowndes said:

Is vanity handicaps really that big of an issue?  

It happens.  I used to play with a guy who had about a 13 index but he would never post more than a double bogey.  I tried to convince him that he should post up to a net double but he was embarrassed to have his handicap go higher.

[North Butte]

Most of the people in the groups I play with have course handicaps ranging from 5 to maybe 18 or so. Not a soul among them ever posts higher than gross double bogey, except for me and one other guy who everybody believes is a sandbagger because he shoots equal or better than his handicap more often than the rest of them.

 

They don't consider it vanity, they think they heard somewhere many, many years ago that a double bogey was the worst score you could count for your handicap. Given that the real handicap rules have been explained to them many, many times and given that they are not stupid people (except one guy who actually is a blockhead) the only conclusion is it's vanity. They don't want to do it right because it means their index would probably be a stroke or so higher. They just don't want to admit that's the issue.

 

In my little limited part of the golf world, some of the most egregious vanity 'cappers are the guys who played to a 3 or 4 or 6 handicap decades ago when they were in their 20's and 30's. Not they are 70 and can't actually play a 10 any longer (they're more like a 12 or 13) but they do whatever it takes to make sure they are still "single digits". Their ego can handle being a 9 because they've gotten old but no way they can think of themselves as a "double digit handicapper".  

[larrybud]

On 6/20/2022 at 12:44 AM, Augster said:

Really?

 

Intentionally doctoring your cap so that you lose more money, more events, more often, isn’t a symptom of psychosis? 🙂

 

I played with a guy a few times who was husband of my wife's coworker. Pure vanity capper. He was a "5" index. Yep, he was, said it right there on GHIN.

 

Guy couldn't break 95. The 2nd time we played I kept our score, and with adjustments (this is pre 2019 WHS rules), he should have posted a 97. I look later, he posted 82.  What did he get out of it? The joy he apparently got in telling people he was a "5".

What was funny is the 3rd time we played was with another buddy who is a legit 10. My buddy played against this guy in a match, weaseled a few strokes out of the guy, and beat him outright handily. Somehow I talked him into playin in his courses' club championship. 2 day event. Guy shot 108 and 113.

[larrybud]

On 6/24/2022 at 8:28 PM, North Butte said:

Most of the people in the groups I play with have course handicaps ranging from 5 to maybe 18 or so. Not a soul among them ever posts higher than gross double bogey, except for me and one other guy who everybody believes is a sandbagger because he shoots equal or better than his handicap more often than the rest of them.

 

They don't consider it vanity, they think they heard somewhere many, many years ago that a double bogey was the worst score you could count for your handicap.

Funny you mention that. This came up in our sat/sun group when one guy was posting his score hole by hole and was confused why a triple he made wasn't adjusted down.

 

Hardcore golfers too. Couple guys kept saying "I can only post a double". I made sure they knew the clarification was NET double bogey.  These aren't dumb guys either, doctors, lawyers, business owners. Just never knew the difference, or cared to know, or whatever.

 

I'd really like to see them change it to "double par" for a max. Everybody would understand that.

Edited June 28, 2022 by larrybud

[Augster]

5 hours ago, larrybud said:

Funny you mention that. This came up in our sat/sun group when one guy was posting his score hole by hole and was confused why a triple he made wasn't adjusted down.

 

Hardcore golfers too. Couple guys kept saying "I can only post a double". I made sure they knew the clarification was NET double bogey.  These aren't dumb guys either, doctors, lawyers, business owners. Just never knew the difference, or cared to know, or whatever.

 

I'd really like to see them change it to "double par" for a max. Everybody would understand that.

I’m with you. Only I’d like them to change it to a double bogey or triple bogey. 
 

Most people thing they “can’t take more than a double” anyway, so the transition would be quite simple to adapt IMO. Plus it would keep caps lower. 
 

After 2 full seasons of NDB, I’m willing to admit it’s a complete failure for the masses to understand AND it’s a PITA to apply when multiple players are playing from different tees with different hole handicaps. So two players with the same cap come to a hole and both triple it. One of them posts a double, one of them posts a triple because the hole caps are different. Because they are playing different tees. 
 

It’d be WAY easier if everyone could

only post a double, or triple. They’d never have to look at the hole handicaps. 
 

End rant. 

[Imp]

10 hours ago, Augster said:

AND it’s a PITA to apply when multiple players are playing from different tees with different hole handicaps. So two players with the same cap come to a hole and both triple it. One of them posts a double, one of them posts a triple because the hole caps are different. Because they are playing different tees. 

I've never seen this with people of the same sex playing different tees on the same hole where the HH is based off tee played... got an example? It would mean that some other hole(s) would have to also be different. 

It's understandable, to me, why the holes are rated different between the sexes though. It's not that they are playing different tees in this case, though. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Imp

[davep043]

14 hours ago, Augster said:

After 2 full seasons of NDB, I’m willing to admit it’s a complete failure for the masses to understand

A great portion of the world has played Stableford formats for decades, and they've managed to understand the concept just fine.  And for those of us who have a problem, the best solution is to post scores hole-by-hole, which is really easy with the handicap Posting system in use in the USGA areas.  It does take an extra 5 or6 seconds, but nobody has to even think about correcting their hole scores.

[larrybud]

4 minutes ago, davep043 said:

A great portion of the world has played Stableford formats for decades, and they've managed to understand the concept just fine.  And for those of us who have a problem, the best solution is to post scores hole-by-hole, which is really easy with the handicap Posting system in use in the USGA areas.  It does take an extra 5 or6 seconds, but nobody has to even think about correcting their hole scores.

There's a thing in the software industry that when writing software that is user facing, no matter how well you think it's designed, if the users don't use it as intended, then something has to change.

If NBD is going to remain, then they should remove the ability to post total scores and force everybody to enter hole by hole. Of course that still doesn't prevent MANY players from just picking up after a double and writing a double down.