Handicap and Solo Rounds/Rounds with kids

[Imp]

On 7/4/2022 at 12:31 PM, larrybud said:

If you "have to call" or "write to the usga" or "talk to the pro" it's not clear at all. Have a great Independence Day!

It's not clear (to you) at all. No. Everyone else? We all get it. 

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, Imp said:

It's not clear (to you) at all. No. Everyone else? We all get it. 

 

I'll say, it can happen. In 2019, I got into it with everybody here over a No Play Zone thing. Patiently, very patiently, "they" talked me down off that ledge. 😜

[golfer07840]

On 6/24/2022 at 4:38 PM, Golferpaul said:

It happens.  I used to play with a guy who had about a 13 index but he would never post more than a double bogey.  I tried to convince him that he should post up to a net double but he was embarrassed to have his handicap go higher.

 

So I'm confused. Does ESC no longer exist? 

 

And I'm sure everyone in this thread knows this, but it's worth mentioning. A handicap is about your POTENTIAL. I'm sure you've all read the "Pope of Slope"'s articles regarding this. Generally, you play 3 to 5 over your handicap (though technically it's the course handicap). 

 

I am not a GHIN person..I keep my 20 scores on a spreadsheet with the appropriate calculations and I enter my scores after I play. I have my skycaddie stats that I use as a measuring stick as to how I'm playing.

 

So why do I keep the spreadsheet? I got tired of people asking me "what's your handicap?" I'd just shrug. Well, now I can answer and I also know what my course handicap is too. This way I know what would be a good score and what, chances are, I will shoot. 

Edited July 10, 2022 by golfer07840

[North Butte]

4 hours ago, golfer07840 said:

 

So I'm confused. Does ESC no longer exist? 

 

And I'm sure everyone in this thread knows this, but it's worth mentioning. A handicap is about your POTENTIAL. I'm sure you've all read the "Pope of Slope"'s articles regarding this. Generally, you play 3 to 5 over your handicap (though technically it's the course handicap). 

 

I am not a GHIN person..I keep my 20 scores on a spreadsheet with the appropriate calculations and I enter my scores after I play. I have my skycaddie stats that I use as a measuring stick as to how I'm playing.

 

So why do I keep the spreadsheet? I got tired of people asking me "what's your handicap?" I'd just shrug. Well, now I can answer and I also know what my course handicap is too. This way I know what would be a good score and what, chances are, I will shoot. 

Yes, ESC no longer exists. 

 

ESC was replaced several years ago by a maximum score of net double bogey on each hole. So under the current system the golfer must use his course handicap and the scorecard allocation of stroke holes to determine whether double bogey (hole with no handicap strokes), triple bogey (hole with one handicap stroke) or quadruple bogey (hole with two handicap strokes) is the maximum score. 

 

In my experience virtually nobody I've played golf with has changed to the new way to doing max scores. They just keep plugging away using ESC. Presumably including yourself, since you didn't know ESC was no longer in effect. 

 

Furthermore, in my experience the vast majority of people I've played golf with did not actually use or understand ESC. They just counted gross double bogey as their maximum score on every hole, regardless of their handicap.

 

P.S. And along about now someone is going to chime in and say that GHIN ought to force everyone to be entering their scores hole by hole by hole for every round, rather than accepting a total (adjusted) score for the round. IMO that would be a good way to finish off GHIN once and for all, at least among golfers (mostly 50 and older) who do not stay glued to their smartphone every moment they are on the golf course. 

Edited July 10, 2022 by North Butte

[DaveLeeNC]

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

In my experience virtually nobody I've played golf with has changed to the new way to doing max scores. They just keep plugging away using ESC. Presumably including yourself, since you didn't know ESC was no longer in effect. 

That is a surprising comment. I play with a bunch of guys who are mostly older than me (DOB 1949). Every single one of them uses NDB (which to me is still ESC - just a better way to calculate it). Maybe it is because we often use Stableford scoring which makes the NDB limit kind of a natural. 

 

dave

[sui generis]

6 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

That is a surprising comment. I play with a bunch of guys who are mostly older than me (DOB 1949). Every single one of them uses NDB (which to me is still ESC - just a better way to calculate it). Maybe it is because we often use Stableford scoring which makes the NDB limit kind of a natural. 

 

dave

 

That's my experience, too, Dave. 🙂

[North Butte]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

That is a surprising comment. I play with a bunch of guys who are mostly older than me (DOB 1949). Every single one of them uses NDB (which to me is still ESC - just a better way to calculate it). Maybe it is because we often use Stableford scoring which makes the NDB limit kind of a natural. 

 

dave

The guys I play with are, as a group, pathologically averse to having to dot scorecards. They have played a gross Stableford points game (against a "quota" or 36 minus your handicap) for decades, much longer than I've been with the group. 

 

Within that context their behavior makes sense. The game is set up where anything worse than bogey is zero points. So they simply convert the game points to a score when they're done and punch that into GHIN. For most of us, about 99% of the rounds we post are played within that game so it makes a certain sense (not to say I agree or that I do it myself) to just keep their handicaps the way they keep score in the game.

 

Years ago I used to try suggesting we occasionally play some sort of better ball or best two out of four or whatever instead of the points game. Nearly every time it was shot down by someone saying, "Nobody wants to figure out where we all get strokes" and so off we'd go doing the same old, same old. 

[DaveLeeNC]

36 minutes ago, North Butte said:

The guys I play with are, as a group, pathologically averse to having to dot scorecards. They have played a gross Stableford points game (against a "quota" or 36 minus your handicap) for decades, much longer than I've been with the group. 

 

Within that context their behavior makes sense. The game is set up where anything worse than bogey is zero points. So they simply convert the game points to a score when they're done and punch that into GHIN. For most of us, about 99% of the rounds we post are played within that game so it makes a certain sense (not to say I agree or that I do it myself) to just keep their handicaps the way they keep score in the game.

 

Years ago I used to try suggesting we occasionally play some sort of better ball or best two out of four or whatever instead of the points game. Nearly every time it was shot down by someone saying, "Nobody wants to figure out where we all get strokes" and so off we'd go doing the same old, same old. 

History and habits are probably the difference. Team play is common at our club with the club providing dotted cards. Pretty much every game starts with calculating your net score by hole. So our group follows the same model. We have a spreadsheet that generates dotted scorecards, etc.

 

dave

 

Ps. I HATE quota games. Take a 88 year old player with  a 31 CH and put him on a course when the wind is blowing 25 mph, he takes gross 12 on every hole, and has a competitive score. 

[golfer07840]

3 hours ago, North Butte said:

Yes, ESC no longer exists. 

 

ESC was replaced several years ago by a maximum score of net double bogey on each hole. So under the current system the golfer must use his course handicap and the scorecard allocation of stroke holes to determine whether double bogey (hole with no handicap strokes), triple bogey (hole with one handicap stroke) or quadruple bogey (hole with two handicap strokes) is the maximum score. 

 

In my experience virtually nobody I've played golf with has changed to the new way to doing max scores. They just keep plugging away using ESC. Presumably including yourself, since you didn't know ESC was no longer in effect. 

 

Furthermore, in my experience the vast majority of people I've played golf with did not actually use or understand ESC. They just counted gross double bogey as their maximum score on every hole, regardless of their handicap.

 

P.S. And along about now someone is going to chime in and say that GHIN ought to force everyone to be entering their scores hole by hole by hole for every round, rather than accepting a total (adjusted) score for the round. IMO that would be a good way to finish off GHIN once and for all, at least among golfers (mostly 50 and older) who do not stay glued to their smartphone every moment they are on the golf course. 

 

Ok, so I'll adjust, going forward. I wasn't aware. 

 

However, I think to your point about people putting down gross double bogey as a max, perhaps part of that is the pace of play issue? People just picking up at double to keep things moving along? 

 

Thankfully I've reached a point where I don't have to pick up any longer, but still, good to know these things. 

[nsxguy]

12 hours ago, golfer07840 said:

 

So I'm confused. Does ESC no longer exist? 

 

And I'm sure everyone in this thread knows this, but it's worth mentioning. A handicap is about your POTENTIAL. I'm sure you've all read the "Pope of Slope"'s articles regarding this. Generally, you play 3 to 5 over your handicap (though technically it's the course handicap). 

 

I am not a GHIN person..I keep my 20 scores on a spreadsheet with the appropriate calculations and I enter my scores after I play. I have my skycaddie stats that I use as a measuring stick as to how I'm playing.

 

So why do I keep the spreadsheet? I got tired of people asking me "what's your handicap?" I'd just shrug. Well, now I can answer and I also know what my course handicap is too. This way I know what would be a good score and what, chances are, I will shoot. 

 

As of Jan 1, 2020 it's called the World Handicap System. Check out whs.com.

 

You've already gotten details but,,,,,,,,,

 

"Potential" is now "demonstrated ability".

 

Equitable Stroke Control (ESC) is now Net Double Bogey (NDB) (based on CH, just as ESC was). So adjustment of hole scores for HC purposes becomes a bit more problematic as North Butte suggests.

 

In any case, while I'm no maven vis-a-vis spreadsheets, I'd love to see that spreadsheet (either the old one or the new one), especially if you play all different courses.   

 

Unless you're entering already adjusted hole-by-hole scores.

 

 

[golfer07840]

46 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

As of Jan 1, 2020 it's called the World Handicap System. Check out whs.com.

 

You've already gotten details but,,,,,,,,,

 

"Potential" is now "demonstrated ability".

 

Equitable Stroke Control (ESC) is now Net Double Bogey (NDB) (based on CH, just as ESC was). So adjustment of hole scores for HC purposes becomes a bit more problematic as North Butte suggests.

 

In any case, while I'm no maven vis-a-vis spreadsheets, I'd love to see that spreadsheet (either the old one or the new one), especially if you play all different courses.   

 

Unless you're entering already adjusted hole-by-hole scores.

 

 

When I'm at work tomorrow (that's where I keep it) I'll show you. 

 

But basically it shows the last 20 scores (overall, not hole by hole), sorted by lowest differential first on down, and I have the formula setup to do the differential scores for each score entry and then another formula that does the calculation for the best 8. 

Edited July 10, 2022 by golfer07840

[nsxguy]

4 minutes ago, golfer07840 said:

When I'm at work tomorrow (that's where I keep it) I'll show you. 

 

But basically it shows the last 20 scores (overall, not hole by hole), sorted by lowest differential first on down, and I have the formula setup to do the differential scores for each score entry and then another formula that does the calculation for the best 8. 

 

Ahhhhh. Ok.

 

So you ARE doing the NDB corrections yourself before entering the gross score. Gotcha.

 

I assume you have boxes to enter the course rating and slope from the tee set you played as well.

 

Not too difficult then. I was thinking you might've been entering hole-by-hole. 👍

[golfer07840]

5 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Ahhhhh. Ok.

 

So you ARE doing the NDB corrections yourself before entering the gross score. Gotcha.

 

I assume you have boxes to enter the course rating and slope from the tee set you played as well.

 

Not too difficult then. I was thinking you might've been entering hole-by-hole. 👍

 

That is correct. 

 

I also have a section on the sheet for the courses I frequent setup to show my course handicap, which obviously fluctuates thru the year. 

 

It sounds far more complicated than it actually is. 😂

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 7/10/2022 at 3:11 AM, North Butte said:

 

In my experience virtually nobody I've played golf with has changed to the new way to doing max scores. They just keep plugging away using ESC. Presumably including yourself, since you didn't know ESC was no longer in effect. 

 

 

In my experience, very few people I see on the course any more are using paper scorecards--most keeping score on an app. The app I use (The Grint) calculates my course handicap and I keep score hole-by-hole, and it automatically makes the adjustments for NDB during posting for our entire group. I would assume other apps make these calculations automatically, since it's a trivial amount of code. 

[North Butte]

30 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

In my experience, very few people I see on the course any more are using paper scorecards--most keeping score on an app. The app I use (The Grint) calculates my course handicap and I keep score hole-by-hole, and it automatically makes the adjustments for NDB during posting for our entire group. I would assume other apps make these calculations automatically, since it's a trivial amount of code. 

The groups I play with average around 65 years of age. I can't think of anyone who uses an app to keep score during a round. One guy in the foursome volunteers to keep a (paper) scorecard for the round that's used to settle bets. Afterwards if anyone can't remember their score they just ask, "What did you have me for today?". 

 

Nobody cares about their hole by hole scores other than to remember birdies or particularly awful holes or whatever. At the end of the round the bets are always about total points for the individual and for the team, overall and for each nine. That's all that matters for the bets. 

[Golferpaul]

4 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

In my experience, very few people I see on the course any more are using paper scorecards--most keeping score on an app. 

My experience is quite different.  All of the guys I play with use a paper score card.

[DaveLeeNC]

5 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

In my experience, very few people I see on the course any more are using paper scorecards--most keeping score on an app. The app I use (The Grint) calculates my course handicap and I keep score hole-by-hole, and it automatically makes the adjustments for NDB during posting for our entire group. I would assume other apps make these calculations automatically, since it's a trivial amount of code. 

 

It is a paper scorecard world where I play. dave

[Double Mocha Man]

I haven't used a paper scorecard in about 20 years.  I use the "brain" app.  I just know in my head where i stand relative to par.

 

Counting up my GIR's and Fairways Hit when my head hits the pillow assures that I quickly fall asleep.

[North Butte]

10 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

I haven't used a paper scorecard in about 20 years.  I use the "brain" app.  I just know in my head where i stand relative to par.

 

Counting up my GIR's and Fairways Hit when my head hits the pillow assures that I quickly fall asleep.

For me scorecard keeping is strictly as a service to the group I'm with when I take my turn keeping it. If we're only talking about my own score, I couldn't forget a shot if I tried. Including my yardages, lies, what the wind was doing, where the ball landed and how it bounced. For at least 24 hours (or until my next round of golf starts) I pretty much remember everything.

 

I've wondered if that means I'm paying more attention than other people when I play or if maybe I'm paying less attention in the moment because I'm too busy committing everything to memory. Probably neither, it's just the way I'm wired. Golf is such a discrete, shot-by-shot experience the details just file themselves away in my mind unbidden.  

[Double Mocha Man]

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

For me scorecard keeping is strictly as a service to the group I'm with when I take my turn keeping it. If we're only talking about my own score, I couldn't forget a shot if I tried. Including my yardages, lies, what the wind was doing, where the ball landed and how it bounced. For at least 24 hours (or until my next round of golf starts) I pretty much remember everything.

 

I've wondered if that means I'm paying more attention than other people when I play or if maybe I'm paying less attention in the moment because I'm too busy committing everything to memory. Probably neither, it's just the way I'm wired. Golf is such a discrete, shot-by-shot experience the details just file themselves away in my mind unbidden.  

 

I have a golfing friend who used to shoot 86-95.  He never knows how he's doing... everything goes to the scorecard.  I was with him the day he first broke 80... with a 76!  He didn't even know he had reached that milestone until he tallied up his scorecard.

[Augster]

I always use a scorecard, but I don’t remember anything at the end of a round. I take my shots, write them down, then forget it. I almost never know where I am during a round. I know when I’m even. And when I’m under par. But once I make my first bogey, my “running score” part of my brain switches off until I make a birdie. 
 

Once I am over par, I don’t really want to know where I’m at because there’s nothing special about being over par. “Another 78? Yipeeee!” Bleh.