Webb Simpson 5.5 iron (+ generally non-standard iron gapping)

[mryank]

Took a page out of Webb Simpson's bag, and took out my 6i.  Weakened the longer irons, strengthened the shorter irons.  Loft gaps: 19/23/27/31/35/39/43.  Found that this gave me the target 15yd gaps between irons, instead of the usual 11-12yd gaps, and gave me more room to beef up the top and bottom end of the bag.

 

Anyone else have experience widening loft gaps between irons?  Any concerns/problems with it?

[Rbsiedsc]

4 minutes ago, mryank said:

Took a page out of Webb Simpson's bag, and took out my 6i.  Weakened the longer irons, strengthened the shorter irons.  Loft gaps: 19/23/27/31/35/39/43.  Found that this gave me the target 15yd gaps between irons, instead of the usual 11-12yd gaps, and gave me more room to beef up the top and bottom end of the bag.

 

Anyone else have experience widening loft gaps between irons?  Any concerns/problems with it?

um, 4* gaps are pretty common. Club numbers are only ID purpose, not standard

[mryank]

For longer irons, my set was 3* gaps.  For certain OEMs, it gets to 2* gaps (e.g. from 2i to 3i).  Only seen a couple sets that do 4* across the board for long and short irons, but most don't.  There's a reason why Webb Simpson took out an iron.

[azgreg]

38 minutes ago, mryank said:

Took a page out of Webb Simpson's bag, and took out my 6i.  Weakened the longer irons, strengthened the shorter irons.  Loft gaps: 19/23/27/31/35/39/43.  Found that this gave me the target 15yd gaps between irons, instead of the usual 11-12yd gaps, and gave me more room to beef up the top and bottom end of the bag.

 

Anyone else have experience widening loft gaps between irons?  Any concerns/problems with it?

I have a short set of clubs (only 10) that have a 6° gap between from hybrid all the way to the sand wedge. I like it a lot.

 

D - 10.5°

5w - 18°

3h - 20°

5i - 26°

6i - 32°

8i - 38°

9i - 44°

gw - 50°

sw - 56°

p

Edited June 21, 2022 by azgreg

[596]

^ this 

I also have 6 degree gaps from 31 to 60.  16 to 28 though I have 3 degree gaps.  I love the 6 degree gaps.  4 degree was too close.  I enjoy the 15 yard gaps from 8 iron to LW. 

 

 

[Chunkitgood]

Don’t know if this post is funny or sad.

 

It’s like civilization goes into decline, reverts to low tech savagery and ignorance, then some smart guy comes along and reinvents the wheel.

[ChipNRun]

2 hours ago, mryank said:

Anyone else have experience widening loft gaps between irons?  Any concerns/problems with it?

 

Circa 2000, Dave Pelz came up with the wider gap idea as a way to squeeze two more wedges into the bag. His plan for average amateur: drop 2i and 6i and bend remaining clubs to get 15-yard gaps.

 

----------------------------------------

 

A couple of personal experiences. In early 2000s, many golfers were adding fourth wedge to their bag - GW was filling gap between SW and PW in stronger-lofted irons.

 

Which club to drop? Many kept 3W and 5W (pre-hybrid!). Next, bend 3i one degree weak, bend 5i one degree strong, and drop 4i. (Distance stretch at long no big deal).

 

    Stock |Adjusted

     loft    | loft

3i   21*......22*

4i   24*..... XX

5i   27*.....26*

6i   30*.....30* (kept same)

 

======================

 

Fast-forward 2016 to PGA Merchandise Show in Orlando, FL.

 

Ben Hogan Golf had been resurrected for a little over a year, and were offering irons with 1 degree loft increments from 20* to 46*. (Wedges picked up from there).

 

You could pick the loft mix you wanted (no traditional iron numbers on first wave of irons).

 

I hit some Hogan irons, and talked to the reps. Came up with this lofting plan:

Driver, 3W, 5W, 3H

___

24*  Hogan irons (squeeze out club by moving to 5-degree lofts in longer irons)

29*

34*

38*

42*

46*  Hogan wedges

50

54*

58*

 

Outcome: Due to financial constraints, I kept my old irons.

Edited June 22, 2022 by ChipNRun
Re-set image.

[Cwebb]

1 hour ago, ChipNRun said:

 

Circa 2000, Dave Pelz came up with the wider gap idea as a way to squeeze two more wedges into the bag. His plan for average amateur: drop 2i and 6i and bend remaining clubs to get 15-yard gaps.

 

----------------------------------------

 

A couple of personal experiences. In early 2000s, many golfers were adding fourth wedge to their bag - GW was filling gap between SW and PW in stronger-lofted irons.

 

Which club to drop? Many kept 3W and 5W (pre-hybrid!). Next, bend 3i one degree weak, bend 5i one degree strong, and drop 4i. (Distance stretch at long no big deal).

 

    Stock |Adjusted

     loft    | loft

3i   21*......22*

4i   24*..... XX

5i   27*.....26*

6i   30*.....30* (kept same)

 

======================

 

Fast-forward 2016 to PGA Merchandise Show in Orlando, FL.

 

Ben Hogan Golf had been resurrected for a little over a year, and were offering irons with 1 degree loft increments from 20* to 46*. (Wedges picked up from there).

 

You could pick the loft mix you wanted (no traditional iron numbers on first wave of irons).

 

I hit some Hogan irons, and talked to the reps. Came up with this lofting plan:

Driver, 3W, 5W, 3H

___

24*  Hogan irons (squeeze out club by moving to 5-degree lofts in longer irons)

29*

34*

38*

42*

46*  Hogan wedges

50

54*

58*

 

Outcome: Due to financial constraints, I kept my old irons.

5* gaps makes sense for a lot of players in the "longer" irons.  I'm surprised more players that get detailed with equipment haven't tried it

[Billfitz]

I increased the gaps between all my clubs by going to a 3/4 inch difference in shaft lengths rather than the standard 1/2 inch.

[mryank]

45 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

5* gaps makes sense for a lot of players in the "longer" irons.  I'm surprised more players that get detailed with equipment haven't tried it

I'm sure others have done it before, but I know this was something I noticed distinctly with Mickelson's recent bags.  After his 30* 6i, he carries a 25* and a 20* iron.  Occasionally he'll carry a 16* iron as well.

 

From a pure Strokes Gained standpoint, the 3.00 Strokes-to-go yardage is ~170.  Basically anything beyond that, you're realistically trying to get the ball on the green.  15 yard gaps achieve that objective, and 10-11 yard gaps in the long-irons seems essentially overkill.

 

Always wondered why more people didn't build club lengths/lofts to get to 15 yard gaps, no matter what lengths/lofts might be (+ obviously no matter what number is on the sole of the club).

 

(For the record: absolutely love the 1* club offering that Hogan had back in the day.  Probably a hassle manufacturing-wise, but it starts to be a pain in the a** managing differential head weights to get to desired lengths/lofts... Often, the heads just too heavy...)

Edited June 22, 2022 by mryank

[eric61]

I’ve thought about something like this with my Mizuno Pro 223s, which go 22 degree 4 iron, 25 degree 5 iron, 28 degree 6 iron, and then 4 degrees from there.

 

I could bend the 5 iron one strong to 24, swap the 4 iron out for a 20 utility, and would probably have better gapping. Another option I’ve thought about: 4 hybrid, 24 degree utility iron (maybe X Forged UT or Srixon ZX bent one weak), then 28 degree 6 iron and so on.

 

One thing I loved about my previous set (and that has me peaking at them in the closet from time to time…), the Mizuno JPX 921 SEL, is that there are 4 degree gaps throughout. The gapping worked really well. They didn’t have the forgiveness of my 223s in the 6 and 7 irons, though, so, nothing’s perfect I guess.

[Cwebb]

1 hour ago, mryank said:

I'm sure others have done it before, but I know this was something I noticed distinctly with Mickelson's recent bags.  After his 30* 6i, he carries a 25* and a 20* iron.  Occasionally he'll carry a 16* iron as well.

Where were Phil's loft specs posted?  I haven't seen them and would like to

[mryank]

9 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

Where were Phil's loft specs posted?  I haven't seen them and would like to

https://www.golfwrx.com/654804/phil-mickelson-witb-2021-may-pga-championship/

[Sub_Roc]

After much tinkering, I think I have pretty much the lofts I need to achieve an average 15 yard gaps between my irons and wedges.

Loft	AVG Distance
21	205
24	190
27	175
31	160
35	145
40	130
46	115
52	100
58	85

 

I'm now fine tuning the top part of the bag below the driver with the SIM Ti 3/5 FW's and either a Cally SH or UW (or none).

[Aviador Naval]

10 - 16.5 - 21 (fw) - 22(hyb) - 26 (hyb) - 27 - 31 - 36 - 41 - 46 - 51 - 56 - 58 - 4

 

Still tinkering with the slots between 7w and 6i but the gaps between 6i and SW are set.  There are 4 deg between 6i and 7i but one is a ZX5 and the other ZX7 so they have slightly different launch/spin characteristics.  The 5 degree gaps between the 7i and SW yield good gaps and I’m very comfortable hitting partial shots in that club length/loft range.
 

I could easily move to three wedges at something like 46-52-58 but don’t need another club at top end and the bounce difference in my SW/LW gives me some options — 56K-12 (Japan model I wish they’d release in the US…) and 58K-06.

[dsmil]

I have no experience in doing this but I recently heard (maybe from Marty Jertson) that 10% of PW length is a good gapping amount.  MGS recently had an article stating 10-15 yards.  I do 15 yards between wedges and 10 yards between irons.  I understand the point if you really want to add a club at the bottom or top of your bag.  For me personally, I don't need another wedge and the top of my bag is good enough for my short course, so I'd rather keep the small gapping between the irons.

[bnperrone]

16 hours ago, mryank said:

For longer irons, my set was 3* gaps.  For certain OEMs, it gets to 2* gaps (e.g. from 2i to 3i).  Only seen a couple sets that do 4* across the board for long and short irons, but most don't.  There's a reason why Webb Simpson took out an iron.

I've gotta imagine when they go down to 2* gaps or so, the intent is not that a player would carry the 2, 3, 4, and 5, for example. I think they expect somebody carrying that 3-iron to skip the 4 and/or weaken the 3 a degree, or if they carry the 2 they certainly wouldn't also have the 3-iron. Either way, I agree with what you're saying looking for consistent gaps instead of everything bunching up at the top.

[Bye]

I did something similar a few years ago, I got a set of 716 AP2's. I have an issue that I don't like using the Vokey S grind from the fairway but like using it for chipping and bunker shots. The M grind is great from the fairway, especially for feel shots. 

 

I had;

 

Driver

4 wood

3 iron - 22 

5 iron - 26

6 iron - 30 

7 iron - 34

8 iron - 38

9 iron - 42

PW - 46

GW - 50 

Vokey M - 54

Vokey S 56

Vokey M - 60 

 

To my mind it seemed like a great idea, the problem mainly was getting fit with the wrong shaft and the huge soles on the 716 AP2's. 4 rounds later they were gone. 

 

I have 2 friends that will probably never forget the debacle. 

 

[Billfitz]

3 hours ago, dsmil said:

 I do 15 yards between wedges and 10 yards between irons. 

IMO that should be the other way around. With irons getting the ball on the green within +/- 7.5 yards of the flag is fine, but if you're close enough to use a wedge +/- 5 yards is a lot better.

[ZAS]

19 hours ago, mryank said:

Took a page out of Webb Simpson's bag, and took out my 6i.  Weakened the longer irons, strengthened the shorter irons.  Loft gaps: 19/23/27/31/35/39/43.  Found that this gave me the target 15yd gaps between irons, instead of the usual 11-12yd gaps, and gave me more room to beef up the top and bottom end of the bag.

 

Anyone else have experience widening loft gaps between irons?  Any concerns/problems with it?

 

interesting

[b.mattay]

I've done this forever with the irons/wedges. I like 15 yards between clubs. 

[dsmil]

1 hour ago, Billfitz said:

IMO that should be the other way around. With irons getting the ball on the green within +/- 7.5 yards of the flag is fine, but if you're close enough to use a wedge +/- 5 yards is a lot better.

 

I agree with your numbers, but that assumes we only have one stock swing for each club.  With wedges, I'm fine with taking a lot of distance off and I'm not worried about making clean contact.  With a 6 iron, making clean contact and hitting it straight is hard enough that I'd rather limit the variance in my swing .  I thought that having larger gaps in wedges than irons was pretty standard but maybe I'm wrong.

[BombinJim]

21 hours ago, mryank said:

Anyone else have experience widening loft gaps between irons?  Any concerns/problems with it?

I recently bent my iron set to have equal 4 degree loft gaps from 20-48 and I love the results.

[Billfitz]

8 hours ago, dsmil said:

 I thought that having larger gaps in wedges than irons was pretty standard but maybe I'm wrong.

Tighter gaps in wedges would be the reason for them often having the same shaft length in the GW, SW and LW. I've never been comfortable with taking off distance with any of my clubs. I will with my LW when I have to use it from close in going over a trap, that's about it. Otherwise where some would use a LW with less than a full swing I'm usually chipping, and then with a 7, 8 or 9 iron. They give me better distance control than a partial swing with a wedge.

[me05501]

The "standard deviation" of carry distance is much wider with our longer clubs than the shorter ones. Still, we get married to the distance we carry them under perfect conditions (off a flat, pristine range lie while hitting 20 shots in a row with the same club).

 

How many times do we swing a five iron on the course and have it carry the exact distance we've honed during range sessions? Probably not that often for most of us. 

 

I recently dropped a fairway wood and my top-of-bag gapping goes driver, four wood (16.5), four hybrid (21). I have less indecision over which club to choose and I'm less likely to talk myself into playing a shot I shouldn't attempt on the course. Plus I spend a little more time practicing shots with two clubs than I ever could with three. 

 

I think the same logic would apply for someone who wanted to adjust their five iron and drop their four or six irons. Having only one club there probably means building more confidence in what that club actually does for you. 

Edited June 23, 2022 by me05501

[ARL67]

^^^ great comment.

After playing with a 12 club bag for a couple years ( only one hybrid and no SW ) I went back to a 14 club bag, because, well, I’m allowed 14 clubs, so may as well have those 2 “specialty” clubs.  Really, in reality, that extra hybrid will not save me a stroke ever, and my SW is for the “perfect” 100 yard shot, which I can do with my GW opened up a bit.  I really should go back to 12 clubs and keep it simple/simpler.

[Aviador Naval]

14 hours ago, Billfitz said:

Tighter gaps in wedges would be the reason for them often having the same shaft length in the GW, SW and LW. I've never been comfortable with taking off distance with any of my clubs. I will with my LW when I have to use it from close in going over a trap, that's about it. Otherwise where some would use a LW with less than a full swing I'm usually chipping, and then with a 7, 8 or 9 iron. They give me better distance control than a partial swing with a wedge.

Another line of thinking (to which I subscribe…) is that since the earth cooled, the vast majority of golfers cannot consistently hit iron-like clubs with shafts longer than 38” and/or loft less than 25 degrees.  The evolution of iron design and lighter shafts may support extending that slightly but not much.  Concurrently, most average size men aren’t interested in clubs less than 35” in length.  Hence, you have to compress the shaft lengths somewhere and wedges seem the logical choice given they are rarely swung at max speed and are more about finesse and controlling trajectory and spin.

[Billfitz]

My 39.75" 23 degree 5 iron and I get along quite nicely. 😏

It gaps perfectly to my 40.5" 22 degree 4 hybrid. 

[J.Bex]

Yeah it's the part of the bag I've been most experimental with.  Since the 90s I had 3i (20-21°), 4i (23-24°), 5i (26-27°), 6i (30°), then 4° from there.  I've come to realize what I really prefer out of the top end:

- an iron as mainly a tee option around 20°

- having the "6" iron around 30°

- something easy to hit high, long, and straight (😄 I mean.. of course) off the turf in between that covers those distances well enough.

 

On paper it could be 20°, 25°, 30° or 22°, 26°, 30°.  A hybrid could fill a role or two.  What I've found is I really like an SGI iron for that easy long turf club that's basically filling "4" and "5" irons with one club.  I'm able to keep a "driving iron" which is also an SGI that's usable off the deck if needed.  The static lofts and gaps on paper don't make a whole lot of sense:

- 19.5° / stamped "4" / plays as a "long tee iron"

- 23.5° / stamped "6" / plays as a "long ground iron" covering "4 and 5 iron" distances, or "4.5 iron"

- 30° / stamped "6" with my "players irons"

 

I don't really care for the numbers on paper...  In practice this 4.5 iron is great - flies like a hybrid (without the left-right misses that a hybrid can amplify with gear effect), and able to knockdown into my "players" 6i distances.  Weird, yes, but who cares.  Also I'm not offended by "ugly" SGIs and offset, which helps for my setup preferences. 

[me05501]

This thread has me thinking of dropping a second club, probably my five or six iron, and adjusting the other to slightly close the resulting gap. 
 

Neither of these is a precision club for me and generally I’m using them to lay up on a par five anyway. Nine out of ten times it’s a toss up which to pull. 
 

I’d likely leave the odd club in the trunk anyway and throw it in for riding rounds.